Patch 1.52 is out!!!

[Morred]

Oh, a very important change that wasn't noticed, and may affect many peoples lives!
It is a revolutionary change, and I was amazed by Firaxis' daring to do such a thing.

In the city screen, to exit it, you now have to press Esc!

[Mike Lemmer]

It's a good thing the epics won't be run on Marathon speed. Devoting 20 hours a crack to one per month (at least) was already pushing it.

[weakciv]

I never hit ESC to exit the city screen. I click outside of the Fat Cross and it takes me out.

[Sirp_]

I am very dubious about this combat change. It will make it much more difficult to take cities without bombardment support. It'll make it substantially more difficult to do so even with bombardment support. Suicide catapults can no longer be used to reduce defender's strength by 10-20% and make them very beatable; now you'll have to use more suicide catapults to reduce units by 50+% to make a big impact.

I think that taking cities was previously at a reasonable-hard difficulty level. Now I think it'll be almost ridiculous, and almost impossible if you're at a tech disadvantage.

Time will tell, of course, but I am disappointed by this change.

As for Praetorians, I don't know why they didn't just make them seven strength to begin with. They are so clearly overpowered at eight strength.

-Sirp.

[Bruindane]

No.

I loaded Epic I to play a shadow game and noticed that a worker now requires 75 hammers instead of 90 hammmers. That Hunting requires 85 beakers instead of 91 beakers.

A screenshot from 1.09 in Epic I 3960 BC



and the same situation in 1.52 3960 BC

[Sirian]

I am very dubious about this combat change. It will make it much more difficult to take cities without bombardment support. It'll make it substantially more difficult to do so even with bombardment support. Suicide catapults can no longer be used to reduce defender's strength by 10-20% and make them very beatable; now you'll have to use more suicide catapults to reduce units by 50+% to make a big impact.

I think that taking cities was previously at a reasonable-hard difficulty level. Now I think it'll be almost ridiculous, and almost impossible if you're at a tech disadvantage.

Time will tell, of course, but I am disappointed by this change.

The combat thing can be summed up like this:


OLD WAY
1. Every unit has 100 Hit Points
2. Combat goes in "rounds". Each round, attacking unit rolls "to hit".
3. Odds of hitting are based on CURRENT STRENGTH AT START OF BATTLE.
4. Each time attacker hits, it does damage to defender.
5. If attacker misses, the defender does damage instead.
6. Damage does is based on CURRENT STRENGTH AT START OF BATTLE.
7. Rinse and Repeat until a unit dies. (Attacker who Withdraws avoids death.)

Summary: Damaged units have lost hit points, chance to hit, and damage amount.

NEW WAY
1. Every unit has 100 Hit Points
2. Combat goes in "rounds". Each round, attacking unit rolls "to hit".
3. Odds of hitting are based on CURRENT STRENGTH AT START OF BATTLE.
4. Each time attacker hits, it does damage to defender.
5. If attacker misses, the defender does damage instead.
6. Damage does is based on UNIT MAXIMUM STRENGTH.
7. Rinse and Repeat until a unit dies. (Attacker who Withdraws avoids death.)

Summary: Damaged units have lost hit points and chance to hit.


If you look closely, you'll notice point #3 is unchanged. So instead of damage cubing its effect, now it merely squares it.

Thus, it does most certainly help a LOT to peel hit points off the top of units, still.

The help isn't as much as before, though.


I simply haven't seen enough to judge it. It makes literally no difference at all between fully healthy units. My statement earlier in the thread is true: it is a move back toward a more linear model, and it increases the impact of dice. How much movement and how much increase is the question. If it turns out to be fairly insignificant, it might not be that big of a deal. Or... maybe it will be. We'll just have to wait and see.


- Sirian

[Maniac Marshall]

While I *think* that the combat change is bad, I'm of the opinion that the opinion that the Maintenence change is WORSE.

I realize that it both addressed the infamous *settler chop rush* and made organized useful on regular sized maps - both good things-, but I think it's pretty bad that making 4 somewhat dense pack cities in the BC era can cripple you (that was the way it appeared in our MP game last night anyway. Can't say I have a complete sample yet).

Now in later eras, it isn't so bad. My epic 1 empire only goes from -44gpt to -107gpt in the final save. But then again, I have a courthouse in every city and a well placed FP and Versailles in my 12 city empire.

Back on combat for a minute:

OLD WAY
1. Every unit has 100 Hit Points

According to research done by Arathorn et al at CFC and Solver et al at Poly, damaged units did NOT start battles with 100hp. An 8 of 10 unit started at 80hp.

I have read UNCONFIRMED (and I'm too tired to dig further at CFC/poly right now, so if I'm wrong, somone plz refute me) reports that every unit DOES now have 100hp. If that is true, then it's not like going from Cubed to Squared, but rather from the 4th power to squared =/.

I hope the next patch swings the pendulum back in the other direction on both issues. Not saying all the way necesarily, but it appears too far out of center now.

- Maniac

[Sirp_]

3. Odds of hitting are based on CURRENT STRENGTH AT START OF BATTLE.
...
6. Damage does is based on UNIT MAXIMUM STRENGTH.

Ahh, thank you for pointing this out. This might not make the change so bad then. We will have to wait and see whether it does or not.

-Sirp.

[notque]

I do not know if I like or do not like the change yet. I've played 2 games since downloading the patch.

My biggest concern is that the ai doesn't seem to understand the change. I read that the ai was drasticly improved on city attack, but here's what I've seen.

The ai attacks as if the damage works out in the old style. I was attacked last night very intelligently from the air, they brought a couple units first on one side of my empire, and then a hoard on the other.

This hoard would have taken a city easily via the old damage. I had a Swordsman, an Archer, and a .... the name of the 3-4 damage brass unit that's good against cav. I can't beileve I can't think of it.

The city had a wall, on a hill. 50% protection from culture.

Enemy attacking with several Horse Archers, Swordsmen, same unit I can't think of that's good against cav.

I think they had 7 units vs my three.

Attack with all of them, I lose no one.

I've gained a ton of experience, whiped out a pretty good size army early.

Maybe there were some lucky dice rolls, but I used to absolutely fear a war. I had actually immediately asked 2 other people to attack for fear.

I was mistaken. As long as I don't decide to try and take a well defended city, I can rampage freely through their territory killing guys.

I don't even need to change my build orders on other cities (I used to switch everyone to military)

Now I can continue building wonders, and protect my infrastructre with very few units, rampage through their enviornment pilliaging because they are split trying to take cities as well.

I mean... maybe it will get better. But I used to get a ton scared from that war call. Now I'm inconvienced.

[Drasca]

I mean... maybe it will get better. But I used to get a ton scared from that war call. Now I'm inconvienced.

This is what I feared. Builder's game that much easier now, but I never accounted for AI being disadvantaged with the new combat system. Looks like the devs haven't either. Left hand, right hand anyone?