(October 31st, 2014, 16:35)Ichabod Wrote: I allowed Gaspar to ded lurk this thread, in exchange for an opponent analysis (and a new tier list). Because I'm a good guy like that.
I have a feeling Gaspar is here to revenge troll you for your savage (and admirable) trolling in his PB19 thread. Gaspar, show Ichabod no mercy!
Played: Pitboss 18 - Kublai Khan of Germany Somalia | Pitboss 11 - De Gaulle of Byzantium | Pitboss 8 - Churchill of Portugal | PB7 - Mao of Native America | PBEM29 Greens - Mao of Babylon
(October 31st, 2014, 16:35)Ichabod Wrote: I allowed Gaspar to ded lurk this thread, in exchange for an opponent analysis (and a new tier list). Because I'm a good guy like that.
I have a feeling Gaspar is here to revenge troll you for your savage (and admirable) trolling in his PB19 thread. Gaspar, show Ichabod no mercy!
Well, he learned from the best.
---
About the game, especially traits and Serdoa's opinions.
When I was discussing with Gaspar, we "settled" on IND/PRO India, for a combination of power and fun factor. Fun factor is probably one thing to take into account, because Seven and Mack are tough competition and, sicnerely, I don't think I can beat them. But it's interesting to discuss things.
I did some study on FIN in my current game, on base BTS, where I'm playing EXP/SPI. Even though I'm cottaging a lot, my land doesn't have much in the way of rivers, so at turn ~55 I'd have + 12 commerce with new FIN. And that's with expansion fueled by old EXP and very favourable circumnstances. I think FIN needs a specific type of map to be worth it, lots of rivers and grasslands. Also, wharves are expensive buildings, to get a bonus that was for free on BTS (the +1 commerce in water tiles).
I agree with your take on CRE, the hardest nerf is on normal speed. EXP lost some speed from the fisrt worker and some hammer saving potential, but the granaries are still there and that's what matters the most. So, both of the traits are very good still, I agree.
Compared to FIN, I think ORG would be comparable economically and still have a lot more hammer saving potential, through courthouses and lighthouses. I expect a Torusland map, high maintanence with a lot of lake/coastal cities, which want lighthouses and ORG fits with that sort of map.
I have no desire to play SPI, CHA, PHI and IMP, nor Agricultural. I think you are extremely right about IMP, we would get more cities, but probably without the needed development. The others seem boring, not powerful enough.
I'm interested in playing IND, to try the changes I pointed out, but looking at it critically, there's a high chance you are right, Serdoa. Forges have a long payoff time and wonders are limited... I can see we ending up not using it for any wonders at all, and so the forges only would be underwhelming. Coupled with India and PRO, I think we are set to get an early wonder or two, but can we make this work??
---
Anyway, what do you guys think of Byzantium, if we get a agri/fishing start? Byz gets the two higher cost techs, for a total of 120 beakers, against 90 beakers from a mining/agri start, for example. I can see it working, if we couple it with some decent early traits. It's an all-in strategy, relying that we get a weaker neighbour...
Creative Maya also comes to my mind...
I really don't know. I think PRO/IND India is still nice, I would like to play CRE/ORG or ORG/EXP. I'm okay with FIN too... I'm okay with a lot, actually...
Let us get the map information and then I chime in with my ideas. But besides that - play whatever you think would be most fun for you. Doesn't make sense to play the most overpowered traits if you are bored by doing so.
One point though: What is your total commerce on that map you talked about in regards to FIN? Because if you would only have 12 more, but in total only have 40, that's still quite a bit. Also, yes it is weaker at the start. I think the whole idea of that "nerf" from Seven was to make it more of a late-game trait instead of being an "all-game"-trait. Means at T55 there is a good chance you would indeed not see much difference, especially depending on if you are still in first expansion phase or already have established the first 4+ cities. What I would assume you hadn't at that point.
(November 4th, 2014, 15:30)Serdoa Wrote: Let us get the map information and then I chime in with my ideas. But besides that - play whatever you think would be most fun for you. Doesn't make sense to play the most overpowered traits if you are bored by doing so.
One point though: What is your total commerce on that map you talked about in regards to FIN? Because if you would only have 12 more, but in total only have 40, that's still quite a bit. Also, yes it is weaker at the start. I think the whole idea of that "nerf" from Seven was to make it more of a late-game trait instead of being an "all-game"-trait. Means at T55 there is a good chance you would indeed not see much difference, especially depending on if you are still in first expansion phase or already have established the first 4+ cities. What I would assume you hadn't at that point.
Very true about having fun being the key factor.
I'll spoiler the info about PBEM 62, but feel free to look at it, Gaspar:
On turn 62, I have 123 total commerce (9 cities), counting TRs, palace, etc. New FIN would give me +14 commerce, while old FIN would give me +31 commerce. Yeah, quite overpowered. I'm paying 29 civic upkeep, so I guess ORG would be saving 14,5 gold per turn.
I don't know how maintenance will progress on the next couple of turns, but I'm guessing new FIN would start being a bigger profit than ORG around this time. Also, FIN usually fuels the commerce to your commerce cities, while ORG acts on the slider and ends up being a civ wide bonus, which is a bonus for FIN (perhaps this doesn't make sense, if you consider that ORG allows a higher slider all the time).
I can send you the save if you want to take a look.
What's your take on India, Serdoa? FW are the same unit, but they cost 70h, not 60h.
We could make a comparision that you can get 7 normal workers with the prod you need to get 6 FWs. So, 6 FWs are better than 7 normal workers? You'd need each FW to generate >~120% of a normal worker labour to get a profit.
Faster chopping is probably the main advantage of a FW over a NW. Without losing the movement when entering in forests, you can chop in 2 turns with a FW, while NW needs 3. That's a 50% advantage (it's better in this mod, since chopping time on quick was reduced from 3 to 2, making it a 50%, not a 33% advantage for FW).
Yeah, my math ability is very bad... And this doesn't take into account snowball effects.
That's hard. I don't think it actually changes that much, it just takes longer for them to pay back. And as the old FW were overpowered, those should still be good. And besides are still one of the few UUs that actually does something noticeable. That said, using them means investing time into worker micro. Quite a bit of time. And planning ahead several turns (and I don't mean 2 or 3). Else you'll simply waste worker turns or build as many as you would have with the standard worker, which would be bad, now that they cost more.
Thinking about it, the change also means that one of the big benefits (getting your capital up faster) is taking much longer to manifest, if ever. You'll take approximately 2 turns longer to produce them, so you'll have to save these two by moving, just to be on terms with a standard worker. In the long run, that should always be achievable, but for the start it can even set you back, depending on its layout.
SIP, Agri/Mining/Fishing starting civ, research whatever is missing of those three, than Wheel -> Pottery -> BW. FIN/xxx (CHA?) leader. Start worker. Improve Corn first -> Silver -> Cottages while building a warrior, workboat. I easily see 8 tiles you want to work and you'd still would want to give away the corn/fish (both...) to another city. Scout 14, as that's the most likely direction for a second city (or not depending what he finds).
@plako: Can you announce in the tech-thread the map-settings? Size (Small, Standard...), Difficulty, etc.
That start does sort of scream /FIN. I guess all starts scream /FIN until proven otherwise. IND/PRO India does sound like more fun but I suppose in this field staying competitive sounds like more fun. I still think the best leaders are probably Pacal and Darius (I think Serdoa underrates ORG.) So take one of them and see what's available on the other side for Civ? China would be pretty good here.
I've got some dirt on my shoulder, can you brush it off for me?
Yeah, quite overpowered. I'm paying 29 civic upkeep, so I guess ORG would be saving 14,5 gold per turn.![[Image: Zarfxs.jpg]](http://imageshack.com/a/img910/9011/Zarfxs.jpg)
