[SPOILERS - PBEM29] spacetyrantxenu - Mao of Babylon

[Ceiliazul]

And if this deal blows up for some reason I'll make it my goal to ruin him in this game. Game, blouses.

I bought a house this weekend with less negotiation.:zzz:

Lol on the house, and congrats! Also, blouses?

[spacetyrantxenu]

You know where you got that shirt from, and it wasn't the damn men's department.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Yawn, diplo. Any chance we can tech cannons soon and make all this unnecessary?

Dazedroyalty: i was wondering why you turned down OB

me: basically i'll open borders with you if you'll close with sian. we have full trade routes right now so don't stand to gain all that much, but if we can get the international blockade going again we would obviously prefer to trade with you over sian

Dazedroyalty: wow. i gotta say, we're not on a good foot for working together
1) you insist on settling on me
2) Boldly disregards stated plan
3) don't want to OB

me: i do want OBs. but i'm coming from a place where i don't need them with everyone. do you need them with sian and me to fill out your routes with foreign routes?
i think the part of the plan boldly disregarded was teh scouting part that i failed to tell him about. he's being honest about that. i don't have a game spreadsheet and failed to post that in thread
i think he offered to make up for that by letting you scout as much of us as we did of you, once we reopen borders
which is basically our tundra city and on an island?

Dazedroyalty: i'm not worried about the scouting except what it says in conjunction with other actions
I can't close OB w/ Sian because I'm getting GPT from him
I need every penny i can get
i'm in last place in tech
score is meaningless
also, if you won't OB with me, then I have no reason not to declare war just to prevent you from settling on that site.
so really, you're making it easy for me to not want to work together

me: i could say the same about the settlement you're about to place in the tundra, casus belli being that your 2 cities would eventually endanger my silver. but let's not be hasty.
your game plan is to build as many cities as the map supports, so i'm not going to fuss about the tundra spot (as long as i keep control of my silver, that is...do try not to push culture up there. you should be at +4 in TI-86, i would think a library in the new city wouldn't overtax my culture requirements in jon huntsman to keep the silver on my side of the border)

Dazedroyalty: i have no interest in your silver

me: i can't afford to give you gpt to close borders with sian. i'd suggest slowing expansion and building courthouses to revive your economy

Dazedroyalty: i'm not asking you to give me GPT

me: right, i know you don't need teh sliver but it's already on the border and 2 cities pressing it provides the opportunity for a flip eventually

Dazedroyalty: i'm saying, you're helping me, which makes it illogical to allow you to settle up on me

me: i know you're not asking me to gift gpt, but closing borders with sian does help us both.

Dazedroyalty: no, it doesn't help me, becuase i need to get as much GNP as i can to get some critical techs ASAP

me: if slowcheetah would build more cities i'm sure you wouldn't need sian's routes. and he's only giving you 3 or 4 gpt right?
can you build wealth?

Dazedroyalty: the relative help is lower than the immediate help
i appreciate your suggestions on my economy. krill and i have talked extensively about it and i'm not worried abotu my recovery plan
what I am worried about is that you're actions towards my nation in game are consistently one sided

me: how so?

Dazedroyalty: and given that you were willing to go to war to prevent my aggressive plant, I'm willing to do the same

me: ?

Dazedroyalty: sorry, i should have said consistently over the last 5 turns

me: when did i say i was going to war?

Dazedroyalty: you did already
when you razed my city

me: about the new tundra city or something else?

Dazedroyalty: so you thought that was justifiable

me: oh, that. well...you realized that was a reach. i think you did that to test us anyway

Dazedroyalty: but me being wary of you settling even CLOSER than i did to you should be fine?
that doesn't make sense

me: you forget where on the map this occured. your tundra city was 4 tiles to my capital. the sites in the jungle are out in god's country.

Dazedroyalty: that's not true
it was more than 4 tiles from your capital

me: then what, 5 tiles? it was one or the other

Dazedroyalty: no that's not true either
look at the game
it's 6 to where YOU founded
and i was one further

me: i have the PB loaded now..hold on let me look

Dazedroyalty: point being, you didn't like my placement
so you felt justified in destroying it
I will feel equally justified if you settle on my border
it was 4 tiles from your second city
Mitt
so you're settling CLOSER to my city than I did yours
so either accept that you're settling too close and are gonna say "stop me if you can"
or don't settl eit

me: oh, it was 4 from my second city
doh you just said that

Dazedroyalty: and you're settlement poses a GREATER threat to me than mine did to you, from a military standpoint

me: you can hardly call your jungle city on the edge of the world as relevant as me threatening your second city
if i settled 4 tiles from quadratic you would slap me down too
and rightly so

Dazedroyalty: every city of mind is valuable

in fact quadratic is a worse city than my new one will be

me: yes. but periphery cities aren't as necessary to defend as core cities. no matter if this new site is uber vs what quadratic produces, there is an inherent risk in settling any city far from your core. that's what the land grab is all about isn't it? now, we don't just go around grabbing land everywhere there's an open tile because that pisses people off. but where else can you say (objectively!) i can settle on my southern front next to you and slowcheetah that will protect my border as well as on that hill? on the rice we've discussed, it is wide open to attack from you. you can attack with two movers directly from your culture onto a city on flat land. we cannot protect that. on a hill we have a chance. is it inconvenient? yes. but if you are determined to view the plant as offensive instead of defensive, i don't know how else to convey that it is inherently not an offensive plant except to offer you the same deal i previously offered, which you rejected (that we'd agree to not launch an offensive against each other from that tight border).

Dazedroyalty: i understand your point
do you understand mine though?

me: your point is that i am settling aggresively onto your future globe city by settling at the minimum distance. does that summarize the core of the grievance?

Dazedroyalty: on the city, yes
but bigger picture
you won't open borders either

me: no, i said i would open borders.

Dazedroyalty: so from my perspective, i don't see the benefit of working with you right now

me: all i need is for you to close borders with sian. if we're determined to work together we need to boycott him.

Dazedroyalty: boycotting him doesn't help me NOW tho

me: last i checked he had 37 trade routes (probably more now)

Dazedroyalty: it helps you now

me: he needs OBs with everyone to fill them with foreign routes

Dazedroyalty: i need OBs with everyone to fill mine too

me: you're going to lose what, the 3gpt deal you have with him?

Dazedroyalty: well, maybe you and Sian together since Catwalk is the lowest
but you and slowcheetah aren't enough

me: you shouldn't be very short
you had 17 cities when i played, sian had 16. how many does slowcheetah have?

Dazedroyalty: 12 or 13

me: i forgot to count before ending turn
ok

Dazedroyalty: and i have one more city next turn
which means i need 36 cities

me: slowcheetah has (i think) only two inland cities, not that that matters. but i think he has 13 bc they've built one fairly recently
but call it 12 anyway
that's 24 routes. i have...13 cities, so 26 routes. you have the possibility of 50 routes for your 18 cities. that's 36 routes for you...now i'm sure slowwalk and i will spend some of our routes on each other so you wn't get all 50 routes for the 36 you need, but it will be pretty close
then again, take that with a grain of salt, when i last did OB and TR analysis in my thread, i forgot how many TRs sian got for the GLH. doh.

Dazedroyalty: here's the deal tho
sian has aggression on his mind in the near future. i'm gonna stay OB with him if for no other reason that to keep him focused on the kitties
i can't draw any attention right now
i need a few turns to strengthen my base

me: well good, i hope they tear each other to pieces
but i don't think you need OBs to accomplish that. why would he attack you anyway? his past grievances are against slowwalk
and surely you won't be penalized any more than the rest of us for closing borders. is he going to declare on all his rivals if they close borders? i hope he does.
i imagine he wouldn't enjoy the ensuing 3 way partition.

Dazedroyalty: in theory that sounds true
but i don't think it works that way in practice
BOTH of us are banking on "grievances"
but if he turns knights lose on either of us, we lose

me: well no. since i don't share a land border i'd be the odd man out. i'd probably just have to eat his islands

Dazedroyalty: right now
later we'll be fine

me: perhaps you should tech to engineering, that should throw cold water on a knight rush
Dazedroyalty: that'd still take time
and i do have a plan for defense
but that's not the point
i want to keep all his focus on slowcheetah
so i will not close borders with him now
even though I know it's technically helping him more
but it's still helping me more than OB with you
and it's got other intangible effects

me: well if you won't close borders with him, i hardly have a bargaining chip with you to get you to close with him. i don't need trade routes with everyone, just 2/3
such as?

Dazedroyalty: i just described them

me: redirecting attention? hardly.

Dazedroyalty: that's your opinion
but if he sees me as a way to fuel his economy without war, he'll stay at peace

me: he has OBs with everyone. that doesn't keep him from fighting whoever he wants.
he's trading with slowcheetah too. against whom theoretically he'd be directing an attack.
anyone he declares on removes a set of trade routes.

Dazedroyalty: true

me: unless we already weren't trading with him....

Dazedroyalty: but if he has 0 TRs he might have cause to rethink why he's going to war
because we're all working against him
whereas right now, we're all working "with" him
so he's focused on his issues with kitties

me: and we're all working with him in the prime of the Lighthouse's effect.
which is a mistake.

Dazedroyalty: economically yes, but if he kills us with knights, that's a moot point

me: if you stop building settlers and start building spears --> pikes he can't kill you with knights.
if you had fewer cities to defend you'd be safer.
you've really overexpanded. i know you're trying to catch all the pokemon/land tiles, but there is a downside to that, and your fears vs. sian kind of prove the difficulty of defending it all and researching fast enough to get modern weapons.

Dazedroyalty: i'm done expanding actually after next turn
and given the game i inherited and my traits, my only hope was to leverage the land race

me: if you can convert that population into GNP quickly and pull yourself out of GNP hell in time do make a run at sian, you'll have done good work. but your squiggly blue line on the GNP graph looks lonely
*to make a run

Dazedroyalty: haha. it is true
i think you'll see some major changes in the next ten turns

me: i hope some of them include closing borders with sian!!!
maybe you can leverage your IMP trait by selling settlers to slowcheetah at exorbitant prices. that will help GNP
(and then you can follow the settlers with, oh, HAs as he settles....)

Dazedroyalty: haha
we seem to be at an impasse, tbh, tho
you are firm in your convictions and so am i

me: what can i do to get you to close borders with sian and open with me instead?
short of paying money out of my own pocket.

Dazedroyalty: you can not settle that hill and spread your religion in Function
and get slowcheetah to close the same turn

me: we could try a protection racket. you and i propose an offer to sian that he gifts you the difference in the commerce you'll lose by closing with him and opening with me, and in return we promise not to jointly immediately declare war on him.
i don't think he wants to see macemen running across his land.

Dazedroyalty: yeah, i'm not interested in that deal. it's hard to go for when you're bluffing, which i would be

me: well build an army so he doesn't know you're bluffing
you need to garrison some of those new cities anyway

Dazedroyalty: i am building units

me: then buld MOAR

Dazedroyalty: but i can't build units and recover financially at once
Civ is competing direction
*directions
i am focusing on economy now
war is just a distraction atm

me: it is indeed, and you kind of stepped off the cliff grabbing land.

Dazedroyalty: nope
i focused
got all the land i needed
and now i'm changing focus

me: lol. are you sure you don't work in marketing?

Dazedroyalty: well college admissions is like marketting to high schoolers

me: you're doing it wrong. you should focus on writing the best rejection letter you possibly can. rather than focusing on how many you let in, revel in how many dreams you dash when you turn them away.
if mao let us having colleges that's how he'd do it.
*have
(you can see we need the education)

Dazedroyalty: haha. well mao would make a terrible provost
:P

me: no, our budget would be flawless and balanced every year.
$0.00, balances to the penny!
educational outcomes are for the weak. and the education minded.
as for the religion, you're bound to get a free spread eventually. with no prospects for building a shrine (until maybe i can buld cathedrals i guess), we won't be able to monetize the religion at all.

Dazedroyalty: i don't need a free spread
i need religion in that city

me: need i say that's mao's only reason for allowing it?

Dazedroyalty: or Sian will out culture me

me: which one is function?

Dazedroyalty: the one you're trying to settle up on
which sian also settled up on

me: you don't have a second city to the east?

Dazedroyalty: tho not as badly as you

me: to 2v1 his city?

Dazedroyalty: not the way he settled

me: well you should remove the offending city.
i'd be willing to help you with that.

Dazedroyalty: sigh.

me: call it a team building exercise. better than a ropes course or a trust fall.

Dazedroyalty: no war in the near future for me
unless we can't come to an agreement, then i'd be willing to declare war just to force you kill my units to settle

me: does he have level 2 borders there?
lol
you can't afford a war so you'll declare war on me?

Dazedroyalty: well i wouldn't fight you
i'd just sit units on the hill

me: you read the part above where i said i can build maces, right?

Dazedroyalty: even maces won't get odds on a jungle hill
you'll lose units

me: i can throw cheap units at it to scratch it enough to move anything you put there
don't make this get nasty.
it will harm us both
and ensure that one of the two top dogs wins this thing

Dazedroyalty: you say that

me: you and i are just on the edge of range where we can catch them.

Dazedroyalty: but refuse to NOT steal my cities tiles
or OB

me: we shouldn't throw that away

Dazedroyalty: so it's very inconsistent

me: you planted that city in the middle of the map. did you think no one would challenge that?
if you and i weren't on friendly turns i would have tried to kill the city when i found it

Dazedroyalty: i thought the guy i was "working with" would be mor ecooperative
i'm not asking you not to settle
just not to settle RIGHT on my border
if sian turned me down, i woulda understood
but even he was willing to negotiate

me: you'rea asking me to settle on the rice, which i could only do if i would never have to face an attack from you from that side.

Dazedroyalty: if you settle the rice and give OB, I promise not to attack you out of Function

me: if you agree to a non-invasion agreement from the globe city side, we have no reason to defend vs you and can settle the rice toward slowwalk
that sounds promising. if we can go into lawyer mode can we make this ironclad and put this behind us? you won't build a bunch of units in your adjacent cities and then run them straight into whatever i name the rice city from the two tiles to its east (i think it's a hill and grass?)
i'm looking for a screenshot

Dazedroyalty: I think it makes more sense to say I won't attack from the tiles between Function and "city to be named"
not where the units were built/stages
*staged
like there's a magic line of tiles I won't cross

me: yeah it doesn't matter where the units come from. how about to make it simple, on any tiles where the BFCs between function and Rice City overlap, neither of us can launch an attack. looks like 4 tiles that would encompass
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44346970/RB/PBEM...sSteal.JPG

Dazedroyalty: BFCs only over lap 2 tiles if you settle on the rice

me: oops, only 2
since the lines are drawn on the gems not the rice

Dazedroyalty: basically, nothing passes between the mountains

me: right. the grass and the hill 1E of the gems

Dazedroyalty: if we wanted to attack each other, it'd have to be north or south of mountains

me: correct. that way no one can be 1 moved, and i can defend on a hill before my city (pigs)

Dazedroyalty: ok

me: ok, if we're agreed on that, i will tell boldly about this provision, and if he doesn't object we'll consider this signed.
i need him to agree though so he doesn't violate another deal, knowingly or otherwise.

Dazedroyalty: can't you just tell him?

me: lol

you don't have a twin do you?

Dazedroyalty: no.

me: when we tell each other what to do, it usually ends in a fight. better to come to an agreement than dictate terms. (unrelated, but here's some insight: we both played tennis in high school, played doubles. but we couldn't play together because we'd fight too much)

Dazedroyalty: but if he doesn't agree, then we're back at square 0?

me: that's a good question....i'll tell him my name is on the thread and try to veto an objection. and if he breaks the agreement i'll let you burn the city when i get the save back. if you don't mind building me a cheap IMP settler i'll buy it off you.
that would suck though because it would prevent us from reestablishing trade
basically if he objects i'll just have to put him in the brig, i don't know.

Dazedroyalty: can we at least say for cetrain you won't setle there next turn?

me: i hadn't anticipated a mutiny!

Dazedroyalty: that gives us time to discuss

me: yeah, i won't settle next turn. i'm playing the saves during the week anyway so as long as i'm still at the helm i won't settle it
but that still leaves me the nagging question of what to do with him if he's insubordinate.
(not just on this issue, i mean in general!)

Dazedroyalty: what would mao do?

me: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44346970/RB/PBEM...NINATE.JPG

TL;DR - A lot of whining on both sides about "why you no friends with me?", rehashing old arguments and a bit of saber rattling, er, mace waving? Dazed says he needs OBs with Sian because every coin is precious, I tell Dazed his GNP sucks because he built way too many cities and is broke, he tells me his economic stimulus plan is Krill-approved so kthanksigotthis, he doesn't want war, can't afford war, but hey he's not trading with me anyway so he'll go to war if we insist on settling on top of him. I'm all, we'll both lose, he's all, i have no choice i can't lose that obvious landgrab city (ok, paraphrased...), i'm all you built a city in the middle of everything, i should have already burned it, he's all well what if i accept the same offer you gave me the other day only this time i propose it? So I lawyered it up and the deal basically says i'll settle the rice if he never marches an army through the two passable tiles where our front cities' BFCs overlap. No one can get one-moved by knights, etc. So we have a deal, pending me telling Boldly about it and him not rage-quitting my team. In theory this is supposed to mean I open borders with Dazed but I'm not doing it until I see closed borders between him and Sian. And if this deal blows up for some reason I'll make it my goal to ruin him in this game. Game, blouses.

I bought a house this weekend with less negotiation.:zzz:

Here's the thing. We actually can economically afford a war. Dazed is broke as Tom Joad because he's thrown down cities everywhere. He'll recover eventually, but he's in bad shape now. Don't give away your economic advantage, as that's the only one we have over him. He has land, hammers, and food on us right now. If you give away the hill defensive tile, you'll regret it eventually. There can only be one winner, and there will be blood at some point.

Also, we have a sizable garrison down there or on the way when the city founds, and the ability to push culture immediately. Dazed doesn't have a religion, so that means having to waste development hammers on a monument or library. Advantage us. Again, don't negotiate away our advantage. His plan may be Krill approved for the long-term, but for now his economy is prostrate and weak. Can he support the cost of sending units into our territory? Sure, if he is happy with 10-20% science rate.

Finally, we have 3 cities coming soon. We'll even the score on hammers/food somewhat in the near future, although we won't catch up to the spam king. That's ok, though, because we should remain several techs ahead of him throughout. If we continue on some military techs for the next few turns, we'll be safe regardless of where we put that city. LB on the hill with +20% culture before he gets Cats? Yes please. Or, we will have cats soon as well, and can attack out from the hill much better than we can attack his forces attacking our city from the hill. Forget diplo, to decide this. This game is boring with all talking. Decide this one on the power graphs.

Be Bold!

Also, at this. I hope you were a better negotiator with the realtor! :neenernee

I bought a house this weekend with less negotiation.:zzz:

[spacetyrantxenu]

Perhaps. When I look at the game again I may have a completely different interpretation of what I should do.

This would all be much easier for me if Dazed was leading this game. We'd just go balls out for war and try to catch up by inflicting more damage on him than he can on us (dragging the leader back to the pack). And now is the easiest pickings he will ever be. Too bad we didn't prepare for war before now.

When we get the save tonight we'll know Dazed's intentions. He had already sent on the save last night before we talked so he hasn't had a turn to play yet (until now, and the tracker just rolled so he this moment sent it on to Slowcheetah), so now is when he should have closed borders with Sian and opened with me if he wants a deal. If he has done that I think I'll go ahead with the rice settlement. If not, well, a deal isn't a deal until the terms are fulfilled. The settler arrives in two turns, I think.

Oh, where are the other two settlers going? You haven't answered that yet. The one from Mitt should probably go north to settle our open border with Slowcheetah for the deer tundra city. Not wildly useful but the sooner it grows to fish its coasts the sooner it will contribute what it will to the empire (the best use for that city will be forting so we can canal that peninsula around the ice blocks, if we need to). I would suggest fort/cancelling to do that and leaving the fort 1 turn from completion so that Slowcheetah can't use it until then, and the worker obfuscation would hopefully not alert him to what will go on that tile. The other setter goes to...? Sheep city? Forest city? The northern Dazed front city? That's probably the best option, we need to go ahead and seal that border and establish level 2 culture.

[spacetyrantxenu]

Ha.

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T94 - I didn't take pictures so this is kind of a lame turn report. I played quickly this morning before work, which means it only took about 20 minutes (is it coincidence I was about 15 minutes late for work? :neenernee) I triple whipped the courthouse in Herman Cain, that was the most noteworthy event of the turn. Borders popped at Bachmann from Moai, the forge build is underway there. We should have Bachmann build a barracks and a ton of garrison, it would be a crying shame to lose that city and it cannot be easily reinforced from our production core. Probably would be a good idea to start building triremes somewhere, too, since our navy consists of a pair of ferrying galleys. Slowcheetah will have a naval advantage over us from their circumnavigation success but we can't let them run roughshod over us in the event of war. Slowcheetah has seen John McCain and although I haven't seen or heard anything out of him I'm sure he's irritated. Also, his front city Too Much Civ has had its second ring tiles flipped over to a city Sian has on that front. I'll post a photo next time. Our chariot running through Sian's land will head north to see where Dazed's border with Sian lines up. If Dazed is accurately describing the position of his front city with me, his city could form a salient between my land and Sian's, which I'm sure is inconvenient as hell for Dazed. That city placement may impact where we put the gems/rice city.

We teched Machinery this turn which opens up building macemen and crossbows. It's odd that they're both available at the same tech, but I realize that the typical tech path would probably have us researching CS after Machinery, which would put maces later. In any case, for our purposes we can build both now. The difference for us is that maces are strength 8, +50% vs. melee, x-bows are strength 6, +50% vs melee and are an archery unit, so they get the protective bonuses (drill I + CG I). I think there is a six hammer cost differential. With that being said, what should our force composition be when building anti-melee? I normally don't build a lot of crossbows since I tend to research CS quite early in SP games, but I also never play protective because it sucks. So...protective x-bows vs. maces?

I'd guess that for purely city taking operations, maces are clearly supreme with their higher base strength and the ability to take city raider promotions. But CR promos are useless in the field. So basically that makes maces a unitasker for us because in almost any other situation I can think of the x-bow would perform better than a mace, given the different promotions it would take. So, I assume we should keep a force of maces laying around as a forward strike option, and build a ton of x-bows for defense (until we can build longbows in a few turns)?

Lurkers, so as to not provide specific strategy advice how do you guys normally decide between building crossbows and maces in your own games? Do the protective bonuses (well Drill I really) overcome the -2 base strength when attacking axes compared to what a mace can do? I would think base 6 Drill I vs base 5 isn't a big advantage, except that the axe doesn't get its 50% melee bonus vs. crossbows. Hmm.

Strategy thinking aside, I don't think we did too much else this turn. We have a galley waiting on some workers to finish around Bob Dole so they can be ferried back to the mainland to work on a new city somewhere. Also, I set research to Monarchy while saving gold. We can do that for a few turns and then spike our GNP for everyone to gawk at. Sian looks like he was annoyed by our GNP graph peaking higher than his so he cranked up his research this turn. That or he's teching something with a big prerequisite bonus. Who knows.

[Commodore]

Against axes? Crossbows all the way, the ability to take shock right off the bat is just gravy.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

What did the five fingers say to the face?

I view this as an allegory for our current diplomatic contest. Dazed is Rick James. We're Charlie Murphy. Are we gonna take this shit? You know that Rick James doesn't get the last laugh in this sketch.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

Our chariot running through Sian's land will head north to see where Dazed's border with Sian lines up. If Dazed is accurately describing the position of his front city with me, his city could form a salient between my land and Sian's, which I'm sure is inconvenient as hell for Dazed. That city placement may impact where we put the gems/rice city.

In what way? Apparently you are less opportunistic/nicer than I am. If Sian settled up on him, so much the better if we do too, as Dazed will be even more imperiled. Again, it isn't enough to get there first, you also have to have the means to hold on. A difficult to hold salient could just get razed before he can get his forces properly situated.

We are still paper thin, but no more than anyone else from the power charts. I would guess Dazed will be building up, though, so we need to keep streaming units to the front. Xbows from Ron Paul for a few turns, then LBs. Don't take any chances.

While I'm posting, the three settlers: We have 6 locations marked to settle. Is this three in excess of the one for the pigs that Dazed hates so much? I don't think it is, IIRC.

Anyway, obviously the spices site will come from the island city. Romney can take the northern deer site, although I don't value this one too highly at the current time, as we have plenty of health resources and that city is very marginal and our border fairly secure for now in the north. I would prefer this settler take the strong sheep/seafood site. With the two workers coming over from the gold island, and the prechops/roads in place, this city will contribute very, very quickly. Given the number of forests, I'd chop into a forge immediately, or as soon as we get a missionary there. +50% production with all those forests, and a good amount of food, this is going to be a strong city. Really, we could have settled sooner, but this one is our top priority.

Third settler should take the hill city to finish our border in the jungle region with Dazed. This can be farmed and whipped for units or whatever. I don't see any commercial use for this city, given how tightly squeezed it will be, but it can incubate cottages for the stronger gems/dyes city.

Later, we can then fill in our incense/seafood location, northern deer site, and finally the forest site just NE of our capital and S of the sheep/seafood site.

[spacetyrantxenu]

We have the save, and Sian claims to have built the Great Library. Is there any wonder he won't build? I really think he got a huge boost being the only IND civ in a four player game.

[spacetyrantxenu]

Another chat with Dazed, this one is more promising I think.

[b][COLOR="Cyan"]Dazedroya​lty[/COLOR][/b]: since you didn't open borders i'm presuming Boldly didn't agree with the deal?

Mao: i played quickly before work this morning, i didn't remember to check to see if you had closed borders with sian

Dazedroya​lty: The deal was in regards to founding that city and signing a mutual-non attack deal

Mao: yes, but the whole reason i entered into negotiations was (i thought?) upon the basis that you would close borders with sian and open with me instead. is that not the case?

Dazedroya​lty: sigh. if you go back and read the chat log you'll see that I did not at any point suggest closing borders with Sian (except mentioning that if you and slowcheetah settled more cities that it might be the same for me)

Mao: this is where i got that idea.

Mao: what can i do to get you to close borders with sian and open with me instead?
short of paying money out of my own pocket.

[b][COLOR="Cyan"]Dazedroya​lty[/COLOR][/b]: you can not settle that hill and spread your religion in Function
and get slowcheetah to close the same turn

you didn't suggest it but i did.

Dazedroya​lty: oh right
did you get slowcheetah to agree?

Mao: i haven't talked to him. i never see him online.

Dazedroya​lty: yeah he emailed me and said he has lots of exams this week

Mao: maybe you can run the idea by him. coming from me he's going to want to know why i've settled on his border.

Dazedroya​lty: i sent him an email asking about it
this game is gonna be over soon if Sian is successful tho

Mao: btw, sian says he build the great library this turn

Dazedroya​lty: off the record

Mao: sure
what's he doing now?

Dazedroya​lty: about to invade slowcheetah with knights

Mao: any idea if he plans to hold cities or burn?
because i don't think you or i can allow him into representation.

Dazedroya​lty: i don't think we can stop him
to be honest

Mao: the hell we can't. if he marches an army into slowcheetah you and i can march an army into his other front.

Dazedroya​lty: i'd rather he hold onto islands and pay maintenance

Mao: burning as we go
i've seen his garrisons, they're pathetic

Dazedroya​lty: true, but for that we need surprise, which means speed
HBR
not maces

Mao: yeah i'm further from knights than i thought, forgot i didn't have HBR

Mao: so...why is this secret? i'm assuming you and i don't want sian to take an insurmountable lead right now. why not tip off slowcheetah that he's about to get knighted?
maybe give him achance to tech engineering if it isn't too late

Dazedroya​lty: sian didn't just tell me that for free. i told him i wouldn't tell slowcheetah
and i think you telling slowcheetah is cheap

Mao: sian has a habit of giving me the good news every time he builds a wonder or does something noteworthy in game.

Dazedroya​lty: he does like to do that

Mao: but if you signed an NDA i can't tell kitties

Dazedroya​lty: I know how we could kill Sian if you really wanted to
but it would require a MEGA long NAP and complete committment
so i'm not sure if either of us would want to

Mao: tech construction, build a ton of cataputs, build a ton of maces, and whack him. not as easy as fighting later but we could equal his output if we dedicated to it

Dazedroya​lty: no.
that won't work
knights flank catapults
and he has his own catapults

Mao: they don't flank pikes, build a lot of those too
there's no easy answer, we've let him run ahead for a long time now

Dazedroya​lty: perhaps

Mao: i guess the quick trip to guilds is partially courtesy of his failgold adventures. how does that sit with you?

Dazedroya​lty: i mean, i'm not thrilled
but your plan is not viable
he's got too much production

Mao: mine isn't a plan so much as just thinking out loud

Dazedroya​lty: in an all out war

Mao: you're a food empire. you'll whip for what you need

Dazedroya​lty: if you really want to take him out
you go into full military mode
while I tech to Astronomy
you help me get there
i gift you galleons
then you destory every little city on the way
but that's a lot of cooperation
and committment

Mao: it is but it makes more sense than fighting each other.
all of this would have to be predicated on closing borders with him immediately
whether you need the trade routes or not.
he'll lose more than you will

Dazedroya​lty: the goal would be to get there ASAP
and then wait till he declares on the kitties
then you attack

Mao: what is his timeframe for the knight invasion?

Dazedroya​lty: around T110
so we might not get there fast enoughhn

Mao: so 15 turns
i ca'nt fund you to astronomy by then and get any meaningful land based countermeasures myself

Dazedroya​lty: no
probably not

Mao: i'm assuming there is a bulb plan for astro?

Dazedroya​lty: there's no easy way to bulb Astronomy without teching quite a few other things first

Dazedroya​lty: wait
i take that back
i can do it
YAY

Mao: merchant?

Dazedroya​lty: no
take it back again
BTS added Alphabet in

Mao: that's fairly cheap

Dazedroya​lty: yeah but that unlocks Philosophy
so i need TWO GS

Mao: but otherwise useless in a RB PBEM unless you're doing c&d

Dazedroya​lty: my first GS would bulb Alphabet, second Philosophy, third Astronomy
so I could tech Alpha and save 1
but still need two
(I have one currently)

Mao: i don't have any points invested toward a GS currently
since i assumed i'd have no shot to beat kitties to Lib

Dazedroya​lty: okay.
so if we were to sign a long term NAP
I could tech all the way to Astronomy in about 8 turns at full tech
(need to double check in game)
I'm not sure what your GPT is at 0% science so that might not be possible
but if I then repayed oyu after getting all that
minus the cost of galleons
that would be the way to do it
and that'd be CLOSE to his timetable to declare on Catwalk
*slowcheetah

Mao: i'd have to buy the galleons? seems those should be your contributino to the war effort. you'd get them back at the end of the action, minus any our skippers managed to sink.

Dazedroya​lty: ok

Mao: and i think you and i are still under a NAP through T110 aren't we?

Dazedroya​lty: i hadn't really thought that detailed out

Mao: 30 turns from 80 or something

Dazedroya​lty: T115 currently
sure, i could contribute them to the war
we'd need 2-3 turns after Astronomy for me to build them
then a couple turns to move them to you and gift them

Mao: what are the tech requirements for astro again? need alphabet, philo, ?

Dazedroya​lty: that's for the bulb
i think it's faster to skip that
unles Alphabet and Philo are cheaper than Astronomy

Mao: what are the tech requirements to beeline?

Dazedroya​lty: Compass-> optics, Machinery, Astronomy

Mao: i ask because my capital is a research beast, not necessarily configured for max gold output
machinery, check.
so compass and optics
those aren't horribly expensive

Dazedroya​lty: actually just checked
I can research alpbabet and Philo
which are CHPEAR than astronomy
then bulb Astro

Mao: i thought they might be

Mao: it would be easier to have this conversation with the game in front of me. grr

Dazedroya​lty: i know
it always is

Mao: anyway you've seen my research output at max on the GNP graph for the one turn i've done it lately
that was with a lot of prerequisite bonuses though
do you have an academy in your capital? and any plan for bureaucracy soon?

Dazedroya​lty: well, here's the thing
you can't be the researcher and the builder
and i can't be the builder
I don't have maces yet
so it's this way or not at all unfortunately

Mao: efficiency FTL
we've built a lot of libraries for border pops. markets are too expensive

Dazedroya​lty: yeah they are expensive
what GPT do you make at 0%?
becuase this whole conversation might be pointless anyways

Mao: i don't remember what it was this morning, i played quickly and set research to zero. do you have a screen that shows how much cash i had on hand to trade per turn?

Dazedroya​lty: no i didn't take screenshots this turn

Mao: doh
everyone played too fast

Dazedroya​lty: if you go home for lunch, tho, i think the save is with you

Mao: yeah i'm waiting on a coworker to come back from lunch before i go

Dazedroya​lty: do you have many courthouses up?

Mao: whaaa, you're not measuring the espionage chart?
i have a few built, not enough for my liking yet
i'm trying to keep sian from seeing my research

Dazedroya​lty: yeah it's tough with his stupid early Courthouses

Mao: i don't know how many points he's spending on other people but he's offsetting everything i spend on him easily

Dazedroya​lty: i think his focus is the kitties
he told me that anyways
if you and i want to pull this game out i think we need a surprise move and i think this is the only realisitc surprise move possible

Mao: i swear this map was designed for roosevelt. commodore made a good map and had a great idea in mind, but roosevelt didn't belong in the mix with the other leaders he chose. one IND leader out of 4 teams? unbalanced. ORG on a toroidal map? that's hardly fair if you aren't ORG. and PRO on any map? i'd love to finish last, sign me up!

Dazedroya​lty: haha
yeah ORG is huge
and IND
plus the early courthouses which are extra cheap

Mao: i mean i got mao because i was the last to sign up for the game. no one else wanted him

Dazedroya​lty: it's just a bad combo for us

Mao: yeah, sumeria. otherwise sucks but in this case, was a good choice
Dazedroya​lty: but here's the thing
that's all unchangeable
we can do this crazy plan
probably fail

Mao: yeah i know. i'm just whining

Dazedroya​lty: but have a shot
or we can keep doing what we're doing
and get the same results: fighting for Sian's leftovers
I need to see how long it'd take me to get a second scientist
i have a feeling it's too long

Mao: if it wasn't for sian's runaway TR economy i'd actually feel good about my long term prospects. i think eventually as my cottages mature i'd overtake kitties and with the economic hole you put yourself in, i might be able to hold out over you as you charge back to the top later on. it's a narrow window for me, but then sian kind of closes it.

Dazedroya​lty: if you think closing borders with Sian will make a significant difference, I'm not sure you're fully aware of his lead
specially now taht he finished the Colossus
AND the GL
and the Parthenon too i think
which is just STUPID crazy
retrospectively, we shoulda all dogpiled him
40 turns ago
but again, past
so think about it
talk to boldly
i'm game for this plan if you are

Mao: well i was advocating that all along...
i think every time you got an email from me for a while it was about dogpiling SOMEONE

Dazedroya​lty: haha
true

Mao: i'll post this chat for boldly to read, get his thoughts on it
but kitties need to know about this too.

Dazedroya​lty: no
i don't want to talk to them unless we're agreed
otherwise it's just spreading info that is useless at best, hurtful at worst

Mao: so if we can get them to build up for this operation that helps them stay alive when sian invades, without you ratting sian out.
how is it hurtful for us if sian gets mad at everyone?

Dazedroya​lty: i'm not saying don't talk to them at all

Mao: he can't invade everyone. i hope he tries it.

Dazedroya​lty: but i don't want them having info that could leak
if we're not gonna do it

Mao: what, back to sian? they'd have no reason to cozy up to him

Dazedroya​lty: crazier things happen in PBEM
besides, all i'm asking is to keep the info on the DL until you talk to Boldly
so it's not a huge thing

Mao: sure, make a deal with the clear #1 so you can be the game's runner up. i don't think anyone is playing for second place
yeah, i'll post it in thread before i do anything else
i haven't talked to slowcheetah in ages anyway, it isn't like i'll miss the chance to talk to him

Dazedroya​lty: hey, slowcheetah just said he's willing to close borders
so to make it all happen on the same turn
it has to be you, then me then him
that way Sian goes from having all to none

Mao: ok. i'll close borders this turn with him and offer to open with you,
taht's going to set off his paranoia alarm anyway

Dazedroya​lty: well that's teh other question
is it better to wait so that he doesn't get paranoid now
like if we all stay OB
then he's not worrying about us forking cities with Galleons
but that only matters if you/Boldly are in

Mao: no we have to slow his GNP any way we can
this will really hurt his reserach

Dazedroya​lty: okay, well i asked Slowcheetah if he is ready to close this turn
how long have they been at peace?
as long as it's 10 turns, he should be fine

Mao: i'm not sure how long it has been, but with our quick turn pace i'm sure it has been 10 turns by now

Dazedroya​lty: yeah that's my assumption too
slowcheetah also told me he's planning to use some GAs to build up for war against Sian
maybe we can pull him into helping fund the secret Astro project!

Mao: he has a GS sitting in his capital

Dazedroya​lty: yeah. he's gonna string 2 GAs together
which willbe sick

Mao: (they weren't so careful about asking me not to scout)

Dazedroya​lty: good news is
GAs won't help his economy as much as it would Sian
he's all farms and mines
but his production will be SICK
and he'll get more GPs fast

Mao: yeah, but he'll go to pacifism (well maybe not if he's goign to build up) and generate a ton of GPs
GPPs i mean

Dazedroya​lty: yeah
it's not great
but if he's using GAs to go to war
that's the best use
(for us)

Mao: i think we need to make sure not to help him too soon.
yeah
better than bulbing everything

Dazedroya​lty: point being, if he helps fund Astro that'd be great

Mao: yeah, i agree

Dazedroya​lty: but i think we'll only hook him if we're already "all in" if it were

Mao: i don't suppose he'd want to build a mega stack of hwachas for us

Dazedroya​lty: i'm sure he'll be building some

Mao: he's probably going to want a lot of pikes too

Dazedroya​lty: i'm not worried about his military builds
so much as if he'll help us get to Astro tho
so long as he doesn't get run over
we're good

Mao: probably a good thing he took over for catwalk then
(even though i did love the triple worker steal)

Dazedroya​lty: he was teching alphabet two turns ago, if he using that GS to bulb Philo ... i'd be surprised by that choice given a focus on war

Mao: i'm about to head to lunch. will play the turn while i'm out. boldly has been in a meeting so i haven't talked to him, but i'll close borders with sian and propose open borders with you this turn. as a gesture of goodwill and long term cooperation i'll offer OBs straight up even though you're going to earn more than i will from them, also realizing you'll suffer a (small) loss from the reduced number of routes. anything else i've missed for this turn?

Dazedroya​lty: Nuke Sian's capital?

Mao: we banned them
and i don't suppose rena%ming my cities TT style will help.

TL;DR - There is a plan afoot to dogpile Sian and make him eat his wonders.