Chevalier Absolutely Knows What He's Doing as Best Korea

[aetryn]

Last turn report from me. I'm typing this up from work so I will add screenshots when I get home.

Turn 88

Defensive tactics finishes. Unfortunately, because of the upset Colosseum timing, I can't remove Agoge - we need it for the upcoming Magnus chop. However, we can detour to Theology, get it down to 1 turn, and use that for a policy swap when we no longer need Agoge. Nothing else makes sense to remove (I'd actually love to drop the diplomatic slot and switch to Autocracy, since we could really use a second military slot, but I didn't want to make that call myself), so we soldier on with the same government.

With Magnus nerfed, we probably think about doing more chops without him. However, at the moment the biggest bottleneck is builder labor - we simply don't have very much and it's urgently needed for many things. We're due to pick up a wheat to farm in I Blame The Parents, but maybe that charge is better spent on a chop? I don't know, I think boosting Feudalism is important and I Blame the Parents really needs that food tile. Your call, obviously, but I moved the builder toward the farm. The builder at In One Ear has no useful improvements left, so I moved it over to chop at I Blame the Parents.

We've finished the Seowon in In One Ear - I slot in a heavy chariot, assuming we'll go to Manoeuver soonish. Likewise I Blame the Parents is swapped off of the archer it was prepping for a chop to a heavy chariot. We may not need these now, but we're going to want them at some point.

Our scout is still not to former Georgian lands. Based on the position of the city-states and the assumption the map is roughly symmetrical, I pin in likely locations for the other three capitals (all now owned by Mongolia, of course). This makes it fairly clear that Mongolia is actually still quite far from our borders, and won't be able to immediately eat Japper if we start an attack and weaken him. It also makes it likely that Holland probably couldn't actually do much to help Sumeria - it's too much of a slog across the intervening distance. The big problem is that The Archduke is now easily able to sit back and build up these lands until he has a massive economic and production advantage. I'm not terribly worried about his land advantage because of the scaling settler problem. But he's gotten 6 cities without having to pay the builder cost, some of which are likely quite good. If we can take Japper's 4 cities (or maybe not the desert one), we'll at least be competitive, and we still have some acceptable land to settle in the west now that we have Aquaducts.

Other news? The emergency Archduke caused fizzled, causing him to get a bonus! That's exactly what he needs, right?
Our science is now up to 54, to Alhambram's 42 and Archduke's 40. Archduke is several techs back, but now that he has Rowain's cities, he'll start catching up.
Oh, I grabbed Reyna, since the distance to Mongolia makes it highly unlikely we'll be fighting a defensive war before the next title is available. After a LOT of consideration, I put her at Another Fine Product. It doesn't have amazing second ring tiles to grab, but it does have some forests and hills which are better than much else on offer.

I think full military chop mode is premature. Archduke doesn't have to attack at this point, and are just too far to wage war on him effectively. We should be building military at at least one city from here on out, but I think spending chops on economics still has to take precedence. This game isn't about to erupt into "The Final War" yet, and I still hope there's some building left to do.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Balls.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Turn 89

I have a few screenshots from the turn, but nothing useful - need to get back into the swing of things. There's not a lot of decisions to make - aetryn covered most of it, and I'm content to follow his choices for a bit and let those builds play out.




The main thing is that most of the army is now concentrated on the Cree frontier, and our DoF expires in just a few turns. We don't have nearly the money together yet, but with the rapid conquest of Rowain, I'm not thinkin' it's wise to wait - the Mongols move so quickly that they could be on Alhambram or Japper's borders very soon. 

I have enough to upgrade a fair number of swords, and I have a battering ram. Against this, Japper has a military score of <100, last I checked (need to again next turn), which means he has nothing. We upgrade at least 3 swords, backed by all our archers, and go for the nearest city (of strength 12! ). The sooner we add him to the empire, the more quickly we can try and catch up to Mongolia. The one saving grace is that Rowain did a mediocre job building districts outside his capital, and I THINK the Government Plaza at his 4th city either got destroyed - or, if the Archduke hasn't built his yet, is stuck with it at a presumably sub-par location. Similarly, the vast land available to him isn't too terrible - it's mostly the 6 free developed cities he's gotten, plus the 2 city states he's whacked, that give him as many cities as the rest of the field combined. 

Anyway, we're getting hit with 4 heavy blows.

1)The Arena requirement fucked up the Colosseum and cost us 10 turns. We'll still land it, but that's a lot of culture lost. :
2)Magnus is getting nerfed just in time to delay the Colosseum more, but on the whole this isn't too bad - I think we squeezed more out of him than anyone else did (except the Archduke). 
3)Our governors got hugely nerfed, which sucks, right as that ability was coming online. 3% is nothing. 3% is equal to ONE extra culture or science out of a city if I can somehow get it up to THIRTY science or culture! This seems completely unwarranted - yes, Korea has great science, but it's not from the governors, it's from the seowons! Well, at least those weren't nerfed. I think the net effect of this change will be losing 1 or 2 science/culture per city, which sucks, but hopefully won't be fatal.
4)Pingala got nerfed right as I recruited him, too, naturally. Down from 20% to 15%. The bottom line is JRTI will go from the 30% boosted city I planned all the way down to 18%. Guess it's a good thing I didn't build the Theater Square yet. :/ 

My main worry is how FAST Rowain went down. He had a modest military score - and he was destroyed in far less time than it took the Archduke to kill suboptimal. It's like the Mongols just had to walk over and occupy his cities. On the whole, I'm just baffled with Archduke's neighbors this game - they don't bother to build defenses, they let the Mongols merrily assemble huge hordes next to them, they let the Mongols declare war (which, if the Archduke's smart - and he's not stupid - immediately follows his sending a trader for the free trade post and +6 combat strength), Rowain spent time chasing the Oracle and a shrine in his holy site...Like, I get that building is tempting. I'm building, a lot. But I have the Dutch and the Cree as neighbors, and I've been carefully monitoring their military scores, even after DotF. 

Anyway, our priority needs to be not only conquering Japper, but being prepared to face the Mongols right after. Archduke is going one way or the other next, and we don't want to have to fight with a tired out, obsolete army. 

So, priorities: Hit Japper now, I think, and build up WHILE fighting a war with him. Bold, I know, but we're in a tight spot. 

Research to civil service and hope Alhambram is doing the same, grab a military alliance to mitigate the Mongol's combat boost. hope to God Alhambram declares war before a trader appears. Christ. 

Finish JRTI's holy site and get missionaries out. We need at least one to accompany the army - I want to charge Japper's cities with The Culture in case we have to fight the Mongols right after. 

Then grab a GG and Victor for the front lines. 

Then hopefully be near enough to the Archduke that we can out-research him and come back with a tech advantage in the Renaissance.

[aetryn]

Turn 89

I have a few screenshots from the turn, but nothing useful - need to get back into the swing of things. There's not a lot of decisions to make - aetryn covered most of it, and I'm content to follow his choices for a bit and let those builds play out.




The main thing is that most of the army is now concentrated on the Cree frontier, and our DoF expires in just a few turns. We don't have nearly the money together yet, but with the rapid conquest of Rowain, I'm not thinkin' it's wise to wait - the Mongols move so quickly that they could be on Alhambram or Japper's borders very soon. 

I have enough to upgrade a fair number of swords, and I have a battering ram. Against this, Japper has a military score of <100, last I checked (need to again next turn), which means he has nothing. We upgrade at least 3 swords, backed by all our archers, and go for the nearest city (of strength 12! ). The sooner we add him to the empire, the more quickly we can try and catch up to Mongolia. The one saving grace is that Rowain did a mediocre job building districts outside his capital, and I THINK the Government Plaza at his 4th city either got destroyed - or, if the Archduke hasn't built his yet, is stuck with it at a presumably sub-par location. Similarly, the vast land available to him isn't too terrible - it's mostly the 6 free developed cities he's gotten, plus the 2 city states he's whacked, that give him as many cities as the rest of the field combined. 

Anyway, we're getting hit with 4 heavy blows.

1)The Arena requirement fucked up the Colosseum and cost us 10 turns. We'll still land it, but that's a lot of culture lost. :
2)Magnus is getting nerfed just in time to delay the Colosseum more, but on the whole this isn't too bad - I think we squeezed more out of him than anyone else did (except the Archduke). 
3)Our governors got hugely nerfed, which sucks, right as that ability was coming online. 3% is nothing. 3% is equal to ONE extra culture or science out of a city if I can somehow get it up to THIRTY science or culture! This seems completely unwarranted - yes, Korea has great science, but it's not from the governors, it's from the seowons! Well, at least those weren't nerfed. I think the net effect of this change will be losing 1 or 2 science/culture per city, which sucks, but hopefully won't be fatal.
4)Pingala got nerfed right as I recruited him, too, naturally. Down from 20% to 15%. The bottom line is JRTI will go from the 30% boosted city I planned all the way down to 18%. Guess it's a good thing I didn't build the Theater Square yet. :/ 

My main worry is how FAST Rowain went down. He had a modest military score - and he was destroyed in far less time than it took the Archduke to kill suboptimal. It's like the Mongols just had to walk over and occupy his cities. On the whole, I'm just baffled with Archduke's neighbors this game - they don't bother to build defenses, they let the Mongols merrily assemble huge hordes next to them, they let the Mongols declare war (which, if the Archduke's smart - and he's not stupid - immediately follows his sending a trader for the free trade post and +6 combat strength), Rowain spent time chasing the Oracle and a shrine in his holy site...Like, I get that building is tempting. I'm building, a lot. But I have the Dutch and the Cree as neighbors, and I've been carefully monitoring their military scores, even after DotF. 

Anyway, our priority needs to be not only conquering Japper, but being prepared to face the Mongols right after. Archduke is going one way or the other next, and we don't want to have to fight with a tired out, obsolete army. 

So, priorities: Hit Japper now, I think, and build up WHILE fighting a war with him. Bold, I know, but we're in a tight spot. 

Research to civil service and hope Alhambram is doing the same, grab a military alliance to mitigate the Mongol's combat boost. hope to God Alhambram declares war before a trader appears. Christ. 

Finish JRTI's holy site and get missionaries out. We need at least one to accompany the army - I want to charge Japper's cities with The Culture in case we have to fight the Mongols right after. 

Then grab a GG and Victor for the front lines. 

Then hopefully be near enough to the Archduke that we can out-research him and come back with a tech advantage in the Renaissance.

The good news: The Holy Site is almost done. Chopping the jungle in Plan C for the Colosseum will get us closer to size 10 for the boost to Civil Service (though I'm still unsure we'll actually land it). The change to governors now means it might actually be better to promote a handful of governors highly, since the 3% in a bigger city is worth more than 3% in a weaker city, so seriously, Moskva can go find another line of work. 

If I have one recommendation it's to not stop making builders even while fighting/building military. I think Japper is enough behind us we don't need to go all-in, and there's so much for builders to do right now it's overwhelming.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

I took a closer look at Archduke's demographics - total pop, gold income, culture, etc.

I really don't see any way that I'm winning this game. Culture is 68 to my 24, well above what I'd have even with the Coliseum. Population is double mine. Gold income is 50, 5x my own, and his gold in hand is 1200 thanks to the idiotic emergency.

I blame Emperor and Rowain for this mess.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Turn 90 + 91

Yeah, basically, the situation calls for a miracle. I'm not willing to concede yet, but the Archduke has about a 95% chance of winning at this point. If either Japper or Alhambram goes, that's basically it. At first, I thought I was lucky in that I was as far away from Mongolia as possible - now I see that, in fact, it was the opposite. 

How would I have played things if I'd been in Rowain's place (say)? Well, for one, I would not be going for the Colosseum, probably not even as many cities. Magnus would chop out military and walls to start. Probably lots of military, in fact. What do with that military? Well, if you build it, you gotta use it. I refuse to offer Mongolia a DoF, since that's just a +6 down the line, but maybe I wait and see if he goes for a neighbor first (since I'm spiky). Then I go right at 'em. Don't fight with horsemen - chop out an encampment, get a GG, and get the job done with infantry. Horses just let the Mongols capture, and besides, Mongol horses are better than yours. 

Do I still build Stonehenge and 6 settlers in this scenario? I'm not certain. Maaaaybe a DoF would be worth it to grab Stonehenge - it opens the Mongols up to go for Emperor, but on the other hand I get +10 defenses and Jesuit Education, for a net gain of +4 CS. Hm. Either way, though, you gotta assume on war as soon as the DoF expires - in fact, I would plan on it. I think the best way to deal with the Mongols is to go right at 'em, before they're ready for it. Probably too late at this point, since Archduke grew too fast for me to build out a big tech lead, and his culture advantage is staggering.

Archduke is really helped by the Inland Sea and his neighbors. He could have been in serious trouble had Rowain gone for a HC rush, or if Rowain had rushed Alhambram while he was absorbing Emperor - then you'd have two powerful civs ready to go at each other. However, Rowain did not, instead opting to forgo Sumeria's advantages entirely, slowly building 4 cities and the Oracle, and doing not much to prepare for the Archduke's next rush. Furthermore, beyond Emperor is Japper - someone who would never threaten the Archduke's other flank, leaving him free to fling everything he had at Rowain. The map exacerbates this - the distance between horizontal players is huge, as it turns out, almost twice as much as I thought, so the map is clearly in 2 distinct clusters. Archduke was free to conquer the eastern cluster with basically nothing Japper, Alhambram, or I could do to stop it. 

Anyway, the plan remains: Kill Japper ASAP, ally Alhambram ASAP, and see if we can stabilize the front with our stacking combat advantages. Then see if we can keep ahead of Mongolian science and try to gain some kind of advantage to attack and beat him. It's a very long shot, I'm well aware - more likely I get midway through Japper and then Alhambram or both of us get swept away by a final wave of Knights, but it's the only chance we have. I need to build military until I'm at least near Mongolia in strength - so I need builders to start boosted chops. 




I funnel the nerfed Magnus into a forest+jungle chop at OCISLY, and the difference is noticeable. Our forest chop drops from 300% to 225%, and with no agoge prep our jungle chop drops to a mere 150% (it would ahve been a 300% forest chop at JRTI). As a result, the Colosseum is still 12 turns away. I have 3 jungles left to chop, but I'm short 2 builder charges, so JRTI queues one up to finish ASAP. I'll do the specific math later to find our new ETA. We need to finish by turn 100, because the Era is ending and we're still 5 points short. I thought I'd have 20 more turns or so. 


Good news from Japper: He founded 2 more cities to take his total to 6. Can I grab those before the Mongols do?




Maybe not. However, it does mean that Japper has not been building military while he got those settlers out, AND the new builders will make improvements to get those cities up and running fast. Gotta hurry, the horde is on its way:




Note also the weird graphical bug at left center: Inland cliffs! What's going on there? Cornflakes, or whoever made the map, might want to look into this. 

Injured horseman cleared a barb camp on the interturn. How many behind him? Dunno. Note how close we are to Japper's eastern borders. A saving grace, hwoever, is that Japper's eastern cities are mostly junk, especially that desert monstrosity, and that Japper still hasn't upgraded to swords - nor does he really have the cash to. I go ahead and upgrade 2 warriors and start moving towards his borders, netting an era score:




I didn't have time to wait for Mercenaries. :/ Sure would be nice if the game just randomly gave ME a free 800 gold. Fucking emergency - if no one opts to take it up, as Alhambram and I certainly didn't, it shouldn't just award gold to the triggering player! That's an absurd snowball mechanic! The concept of emergencies is an interesting one, but it's very poorly implemented at the moment. 

Scoreboard is grim:



The conquest of Rowain has taken Archduke and I from neck-and-neck to him skyrocketing ahead. He's rolled in the era score, too, from largest civ, strategic units, unique units, conquering enemies, a world wonder - I can't even list all of them, but he's guaranteed another golden age, meaning his absurd culture will remain. If I can get my own golden age, AND conquer Japper, AND magic up a free 800 gold, AND make sure that Alhambram doesn't get conquered, I might have a chance. 

-sigh-

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Turn 92 - 93 

Incredibly fast turn around on this turn. Next turn should see some fireworks from me - the DoF is up and my army, paltry as it is, is lined up along the border, and there's nothing the Cree can do to stop me. The real test will be the Mongols. 




Production is boosted, and I really need to slap down mines everywhere - I have naked hilltops all over the place. THe sooner I get htem improved, the sooner I can catch up to Mongolia (lol, as if). Anyway, next tech path?

I think I need to push for Gunpowder next. Not sure about picking up stirrups, honestly - Knights will only match Mongolia's cavalry. If I can grab muskets and hwachas, though, Archduke's heavy cav is basically done until Military Science and Combustion, a LONG time. By then I can be pushing infantry and machine guns - if I can keep my tech advantage. 




So, I start military engineering, and slap down an aqueduct at I Blame the Parents, which has the only good tile for one. We'll work on that after the encampment...or just research without the boost? No need to make that decision yet. We could use the time to grab stirrups, for example - at least a few knights wouldn't go amiss. 

There are two key issues to surviving that long, though:

#1)Mongolia's military power spiked from 709 on turn 92 to 900 on turn 93. Alhambram and I each have 280 apiece, Japper has 27 (not a typo). Right now he's strong enough to steamroll both of us at once, and I see no reason why he won't just push right on into the Netherlands. Why the hell isn't Alhambram declaring war? Does he think that if he doesn't, Mongolia will leave him alone? I dunno. Anyway, I need to start churning out military fast. This si why I think we're practically into final war chop mode already. 

#2)Gold generation is abysmal. I took a big hit just from upgrading two swords, all I could afford. Plantations and diamond tiles won't cut it - we have no copper and not much coast, so we need Commercial Hubs down, pronto. NOt sure how to balance building those with military, but after hte latest round of builders is out we'll push on this. Archduke is doing a great job setting the pace - if I had 20 turns or so, I could fix all my problems - get gold, land the Colosseum, absorb Japper, and happily work on science. He's quite correctly not doing this, and I expect a screaming mob of barbarians is descending on Alhambram even now. 

On turn 92, I have to remove the plantation at OCISLY in order to enable a chop - good to note that you do indeed still ahve to remove improvements to chop resources. It's worth it, though, because next turn I chop, dropping the ETA down and hitting size 10:




That's a hefty amount of culture for one jungle chop! Plus faith, production, etc. Worth the builder charge to rebuild the plantation, for sure, although the gold hit stings (I decided I needed to hit Civil Service more than I need gold - the combat boost is critical...albeit worthless if Alhambram never bothers to declare war!). 




Finally, I send my army marching on Japper. I have 2 warriors and 2 swords, 'coz I'm poor, but Japper is even poorer, and his military score is flat out pathetic. He just founded 2 new cities to bring his total to six. An overview of my army and score:




We can declare war next turn. In an ideal world, I snap up all 6 cities and get DotF in place to hold off the Archduke. My military isn't nearly powerful enough to stop him now, if he hits me right after I take out Japper (if I take out Japper, no need to get cocky), so I need to do two things:

1)Build more military and get it to the front to defend against a Mongol invasion.
2)Get a shrine and missionary up to spread the faith in this area. 

ETA on the shrine is 5 turns. 

If Alhambram gets conquered while I'm doing this, though, that's GG.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Turn 94




ETA on the Colosseum is 5 turns, so we should have a golden age in the medieval era. No idea how we'll earn one for the Renaissance, though, if I blow through the tech tree too fast. The army is all set to go on Japper's borders - I declare next turn, when the ram touches the wall. No need to go yet. 

In the east, I find Alhambram's sixth city, and most of his arhttps://i.imgur.com/J1ZJv6x.pngmy, as we exchange open borders:




And that's really it. I have builders popping out, so we'll work on chopping either Commercial Hubs or military units. I need to reach at least 600 military points to feel safe. If I could afford to upgrade swords and Xbows, I'd get a long way there - so I need gold. Chop out Commercial Hubs and, shit, even run investments? I need gold more than anything else right now, even units! 

Shrine is 2 turns out of JRTI, then I'll buy a missionary and save his charges for the front. Second missionary will be bought to spread to the homeland and southern front, in case the Mongols turn up from that direction. 

In annoying news, the Mongols burned through the envoy part of the tree and stole Valetta from me. No monument or granary purchases for a while - that's fine, but I WAS thinking about faith-buying an armory to boost gunpowder. I'll need to take a dip into the envoy civics myself to wrest it back from the Archduke. 

Depressing score:

[RFS-81]

Just caught up again on reading your thread! Good luck conquering Japper!

I'm sure Alhambram will agree that TheArchduke is a threat, maybe you still can stop him together.

[Singaboy]

Here is hoping that you can conquer Japper fast and together with Alhambran, mount a credible challenge against Archduke.

I think, the MPs go to show that a weak link or two can tilt the game in someone's favor by mere luck of being next to them