[SPOILERS - PBEM17] novice and spaceman - Suryavarman of India

[spacemanmf]

Reply from rego below. Can someone simplify it for me?

Hi Novice and Spaceman!

Glad to meet you (I guess). I say I guess, since I'm not sure where or how we met! :-)

I appreciate your sharing of information and we are happy to reciprocate - yes we did take Metal Casting and no, we have not yet met anyone. Seems like that's the way things go for me - I never seem to meet anyone early.

And thanks for being "Straight Talkers!" As you know from reading my posts in PB4, I'm the same way!!! ;-) But seriously, I do like straight talking - I really don't spend hours and hours composing these diplo messages - that's just how I talk! You'll see if/when you grab me on chat. Speaking of which, I'm generally on Google Talk as well as AOL IM with this same screenname.

We also appreciate the offer of Open Borders. I will probably have to decline the offer that pops up immediately, but I'm definitely interested in discussing how that might work between our civs. As you well know, having the Great Lighthouse gives you much more of a benefit to having Open Borders than we would get (even assuming that we have a trade route to you which at this point we probably don't?).

Though we have not met anyone and have thus not been approached with this by anyone, it would not surprise me if there was some sort of "don't sign OBs with the GLH guy" pact being floated, perhaps already? So I hope you understand my need for caution at this point. I don't want to sign OB with you and find myself on the wrong side of a 3v2 dogpile.

But. Having said that, obviously from my experience in PB4, I am sensitive to your guys' side of things too. And even though you're not in PB4, so couldn't close borders there in retaliation (not that you would actually DO that), maybe somebody that IS in PB4 might read our conversation and want to close borders with me after reading our diplo conversations in one of our threads? So I don't really want to take a hard line on that, since I find it annoying and stupid that everyone punishes the guy with the GLH, just because he happened to spend early resources on it (speaking of which dang you guys built that FAST!)

So. How can we build up closer relations without necessarily signing OB this exact turn? I've read your thread in PBEM13, and in fact it is one of the few that I check up on at this point. So I know you guys are good players, and generally I prefer to ally with strong players because it makes things more fun than trying to "dominate" a weaker player. Of course in this game, everybody is pretty good so maybe that's not as big of a factor.

So what do you think? I try to respond pretty quickly to diplo messages, and if you guys do too, I think that's a good sign of the beginnings of a promising working relationship! Like I said, feel free to reply via email or chat

dan.
regoarrarr
inca

[spacemanmf]

Having said that, I did manage to read all the way through it. I can't quite believe it's all about opening borders.

So something like this in response:

Hey rego

Apparently you are to our NE. (I say "apparently" because I have not yet seen the screenshots - I can't access them at work.)

We understand your concern re opening borders with us, but we already have Open Borders with Shoot and darrell, so an embargo against us looks unlikely (at least at this stage!). Signing OBs with us would be a gesture of goodwill for now, but we would look to treat you well in future negotiations as a result.

As for the construction of the Great Lighthouse, what can I say but: TIMBER!

spaceman

[novice]

Very good. He's fishing for info and concessions, let's give him the former but not the latter.

[spacemanmf]

Happy for me to send then?

[novice]

Happy for me to send then?

Yep.

[novice]

Thanks for letting me know you met Rego, and good luck getting circumnavigation. I'm not in that race, so I'll be cheering you guys on. If you don't mind me asking, in what general direction did you guys meet Rego?

In regards to settling on my continent, my perspective hasn't changed all that much on it since we last talked. I'd still want to be assured of being able to settle on someone else's continent before signing off on that, and obviously without having met anyone else that hasn't changed recently. Until I have assurances of settling elsewhere, I am going to be wary of giving up spots on my continent.

Shoot the Moon

Here's a thought, what if we offer him the sugar site?

[spacemanmf]

Here's a thought, what if we offer him the sugar site?

Which one is that again? I thought you were talking about settling on the bananas. Is that next to the sugar on our landmass on the other side of darrell's city which is also on our landmass?

So rego is actually so far NE he is SW.

Well, I had a prolonged chat with darrell today, which I will try to edit to make relevant, or at least signpost.

14:56 me: We just met Rego. Do you have his email?

14:59 Darrell: yeah, gimme a sec
[SNIP]
16:01 Darrell: Where is the sneak, untrustwothy bastard?

16:24 me: Hey - he's "in the northeast", but I can't verify where 'cos I can't see the pictures novice has posted at work.
(As in: while I'm at work)

16:25 Darrell: okay...so I think with the info I have on Kyan, and the info you have on shoot and rego, I can make a "guess" map
I will send it to you once I've done so, probalby not until tomorrow

me: nice one - I'll give you more details about where we've located him in a few hours

Darrell: cool, sounds good
16:26 also, I have your charts now, do you have mine?

me: nah, we're behind on EPs

Darrell: I'm hoping to meet Kyan in about 5 turns, I can swap my EPs to him at that time until we have each others charts, then we can just match

me: we met Shoot first - so we have most on him (38 I think)
then 18 on you

16:27 Darrell: You should be able to see shoot's charts then
or close to it

me: i think - just extrapolating
is not 43 on this map then?

Darrell: unless he has more than that on you

me: he does

Darrell: no clue

me: i thought 43 was the magic number

Darrell: its probably 43, that number sounds familiar

me: but yeah he hasn't met anyone, so is up to 50+ on us

Darrell: rego will know for sure

me: novice's first action as to offer open borders to him in game - funny
*was

Darrell: hilarious
16:28 I suspect he does not accept

me: no

Darrell: feel free to tell him we signed open borders

me: we sent him an email not long after

Darrell: remember my goal to piss him off

me: ok cheers - i told him where you were too - i.e. south of us

Darrell: besides, he might be more likely to open if he feels an embargo is dead
one of those things where once you get one fish in the barrel, the rest jump in on their own

me: yeah he's only going to miss out since we probably get enough trade routes if we have 3 out of 4

16:29 Darrell: exactly
at least for now

me: for now

Darrell: once you get currency you need another
eh
actually maybe not

me: we have only one inland city
our capital

Darrell: us too
I don't have any non-coastal cities on my dotmap either, I think

me: so maybe you're right, although some of our own cities on other cities will help
no - we don't either
*continents
16:30 not cities

Darrell: when you get harbors, I think foreight is wroth 2c again?

me: [will edit for our thread to make me sound less stupid]

Darrell: so its 1 for domestic, 2 for ic, 3 for fic

me: yeah that's what i'd worked out i think
not sure about harbours (spelling corrected)

Darrell: I guess it depends on how long you are at peace
:P

Non-PBEM17, language/country chat:
[SPOILER]16:31 The only thing I don't get is "maths"
its mathematics
or math
there is no such thing as "maths"

me: except in english
it's a simple contraction
what's so complicateD?

Darrell: and you call "Z" (pronounced "zee") "zed"

me: as in civilizations vs civs
you don't say civ

Darrell: I speak good old american
this english thing is for fancy folk from europe

me: zed's dead baby, zed's dead

16:32 Darrell:

me: well they have their own languages, i think you'll find

Darrell: they all speak english to some degree or another

me: except that they can mostly speak ours, but hardly anyone here can speak theirs
that's thanks to you lot

Darrell: eh
you started it, we helped perpetuate it

me: well yes
so you're due thanks, are you not
16:33 :-)

Darrell: we'll thank you for europe and south asia, you thank us for china

me: so what methods have you got planned for rego?

Darrell: rego is ignoring me, on purpose no doubt, but when he answers I will tell you

me: ok

Darrell: I play a lot of poker, and when you get an aggresive player that is raising you a lot, you assume they have nothing, and play back at them
that's my plan

16:34 me: or you sit tight and wait for a freakin' good hand, and nail em to the wall

Darrell: or that
that's good too
but to bother rego, I think playing back is better
everyone seems to fold at him
err...or raze the buddhist holy city
one or the other works

me: well i think lots of misinformation, not backing down, threats, mixing it up

Darrell: yeah

me: shoot has buddhism

Darrell: that for sure
I know
16:35 we can see it sinc ehe adopted it, even without contact
I am 99% sure rego is going for judaism, but not 100%
just from how he plays

me: well razing the buddhist holy city won't annoy rego then will it...

Darrell: hah-hah...no, probably not, but i was talking about pb2
when rego finally got called on a bluff

me: yeah some strange decisions in that game
also showing what can happen when two or three play as one

16:36 Darrell: yup

me: anyway, we have poker themes running through our civ in PBEM13
if you're a fanatic you should check it out

Darrell: so many pbem games started at once, I didn't lurk any, but I'll check that out

me: if you can wade through our million and one posts
16:37 rego has no chance in winning the post race in PBEM17

Darrell: uh
120 pages?
good grief

me: yeah - just see an overview of the cities
that's enough for now
plus worker names

Darrell: no, he didn't and it bothers him

me: (and some units, but we gave up on that)

Darrell: I decided workers and cities only for this game
which is a first, because I've never done a naming theme before

16:38 me: we started naming warriors Seven of Clubs, etc
mixing it up so people didn't know how many we had
but we got bored
we need named workers for novice's microplans

Darrell: Yeah, that's why I did it this time...for workers and cities at least
I think I'm about to abandon my micro plan tough

16:39 me: yeah ours is running out

Darrell: I have the next few turns scripte, but I'll be winging it soon

me: that's where i can do some damage
(...to our civ)

Darrell: isn't it damauge?

me: no it's damge in US english

16:40 Darrell: I was in England for a summer, and bought a few books. When I re-read them now it gives me a queasy feeling in my stomach
Well, not really, but it sounded good

me: charming
so are you keeping krill well away from the turns?

Darrell: yeah
16:41 he asked me the last few nights if he wanted me to play them, and I was like...no that's okay, I'll take it in the morning

me: haha
yeah you seem to have it whlie you're asleep

Darrell: I'm more worried he'll deviate from my micro plan than play it drunk, he doesn't really agree with soem of my choices

More random ramblings:

me: we're not quite PBEM16 pace, but we're doing fine

Darrell: if shoot gets it to me by 10 p.m. my time, I cna play it
yeah, 1/day with the occasional 2/day is nice

16:42 me: we've played 7 turns since we last played a PBEM13 turn... :-(

Darrell: All palyers in this game are on my "will play with again" list
pbem4 is about a turn a week too
its pissing krill off something awful

me: haha yeah - he was a bit OTT in that
i can understand his frustration, especially when enjoying a game, but still

16:43 Darrell: I prefer fast paced games, but in the end, I just play the save when I get it and don't worry that much

me: some people aren't slaves to the RB forums

Darrell: yeah

me: i wish i could stop logging in quite so much

Darrell: I am on the forums too much as well...

me: i don't so mind when we skip a day or two, as long as people say they are going AWOL

Darrell: Better than being addicted to heroin, but still..
16:44 right, exactly

me: that's one way of looking at it

Darrell: sciz was goine for several days in ffh pbem2, turns out he got drunk and fell 25 feet, breaking both wrists
so that's a good excuse

16:45 me: yeah you just don't know - which is why i just say something like "everything ok?" rather than "where's the f**king save?!?"

Darrell: but the "haven't had time" apology really doesn't work, since it only takes 2 seconds to post you don't have time to play for a few days

me: yeah - that's it
anyway, i had better do some work... i'll be on later to inform you of rego's response (if any)

16:50 Darrell: later

[/SPOILER]

[spacemanmf]

More chat with darrell, basically discussing dissuading rego from going for Judaism...

18:11 me: We got a response...

18:12 Darrell: 42?

me: paragraphs?
not far off

Darrell: HAH-HAH!
that's what I'm talking about

me: we got some info: he got MC
predictably enough

Darrell: yeah, that was for sure
I assume he has copper on the trade screen
18:13 I doubt he's in a rush on the colossus
being the only with MC for dozens of turns and all

me: and then six paragraphs basically "i'm not going to sign OBs now, but i can talk about it"

Darrell: Has he admitted to meeting anyone in game?

me: he says he has not

Darrell: hmm

me: i don;t have reason to doubt him

Darrell: A good test would have been to ask someone he's met if he brought you up
18:14 no, he won't outright lie
well, not typically

me: well we should be able to see on F4 unless it's kyan

Darrell: or us
but then you know I don't lie

me: i don't know yet - but i have no evidence to the contrary...

18:15 Darrell: speaking of not lying, I am teching monotheism now
no, erally I am
I'm not just syaing that soyou can pass it along to rego and make him abandon it

me: good luck, religion hunter!
i'm happy to pass on whatever you see fit in whatever way you see fit...

Darrell: I mean, I'm getting it next turn, or two at the latest
you can quote me on that

me: ah right

Darrell:

18:16 me: did you get the "i'm happy..." comment - it says not

Darrell: If you later find out I'm lying, well...its not your fault
I mean if I lie to you what can you do about it?

me: hey, i'm not rego

Darrell: yeah, i did get that comment
In a hypothetical situation, i would not want to place you in a postion to pass on information you know to be false, as it might causeyou issues at a later date
18:17 however, if you pass on information that is indeed false, but you did not know about it, then...

me: well in which case we say "we understand that..."

Darrell: who can blame you?
just as long as we all understand each other

me: gotcha

Darrell: nothing would make me happier than to beat rego to polytheism, them bluff him off mono when it was his for the taking. uh, hypothetically speaking
but, to you, I hsould go mono very soon
very, very soon
in theory
18:18 unless I was lying
but I'm telling you I'm not lying
in theory

me: i don't really need to be so tentative. i just say "darrell says he's going for mono - we weren't going for it ourselves anyway"

Darrell: no no
darrell says a few turns from mono

me: yes ok

Darrell: :D

me: i impress the fact that it's in the bag

18:19 Darrell: yes yes, that is the important part
maybe a "too bad he's first in the turn ordrer" because I am quite sure that bothered him too
last thing I watn to see is half cost forge boy having OR for 50% infrastructure costs
I did that in pbem2 and it was working real well till I, uh, got invaded

PBEM13 chat:
[SPOILER]18:20 me: like us in PBEM13

18:21 Darrell: I skimmed through that thread (well, the first 5 and last 10 pages) and it seems like it didn't really matter

me: we bulbed theo

Darrell: that was my backup plan if I loast out on the first three religions

me: doing the henge/oracle double was a cracking opening
then getting up to 7 cities before getting HG was a big boost

Darrell: I actually assumed that woul dhappen, but I aslo thought it was likely I could get two GPs before anyone else coudl get 1
18:22 yeah, that's pretty sick

me: all the while with financial riverside cottages being set up

Darrell: yeah

me: then doing the great lighthouse for fun

Darrell: I think everyone in this game has had whopping good games except me

me: you're phil, right?

Darrell: lizzy, so FIN/PHI
my names not phil though

me: yeah, all these bloody financials
18:23 haha yes ok
our choice was my choice - i wanted something different
to be fair, our fast workers made the lighthouse possible - and also necessary in a way
i think novice regretted our choice at first
not sure now

18:25 Darrell: can't complain with EXP/CRE...once you got the great lighthouse to make tech parity you are sitting nice
shoot got the best leader, I probably got the worst.
and I got the worst civ
EXP fast workers are nuts early on

me: yeah we did a 1 turn library in our capital - v nice

Darrell: the hardest part is holding back some forests for later...probably too hard to resist

18:26 me: if you can do the micro - which novice can - then it's worth it
heh, what forests...

Darrell: heh-heh...that's the way to paly with half cost granaries and cheap workers
I knew I'd lag for a while...only question is whether I can catch up

18:27 me: GPs is a good way
that's playing to your strength, or one of them

Darrell: yup

me: since financial is neutralised by others with the same

Darrell: its hard to find a way to synergize FIN and PHI, but early GPs from the UB is a good one
exactly
only problem is I'd like to get an early academy too, but by the time I can puase for library building, it will be too late

18:28 me: yeah what did sullla & speaker do in PB2?

Darrell: You will have an academy long before me I'm sure
yup, they did

me: i mean, what did they do with that combo

Darrell: oh

me: all those rivers made financial a godsend

Darrell: they wasted PHI

me: all that war i suppose

Darrell: I posted as much, and their valid excuse was they got dogpiled

me: whipped to the ground

Darrell: the one thing they got out of it was the early academy though, which was pretty darn good

18:29 me: yeah that's got to be our target really

we're not letting our cities grow yet, though

Darrell: you should be first to get an academy
no, not the time yet
but soon I guess

me: gold will help
and gems

Darrell: you have gold?

me: rego will have no problems with happiness
yeah

18:30 Darrell: I will tgive you a resource count since I like giving free info away
2*incense, gold, wine, gems
happy resource count

me: i think we have 2* silks

Darrell: then for health we have 2*sheep, 2*corn, rice, and seafood
I think I am missing somehitng

me: but same for the rest

Darrell: maybe 3*corn
no crab yet

me: we have corn, cows, rice

Darrell: just clams and some fish
I saw the cows on the trade screen
I like grassland cows quite a bit, much better than sheep IMO

me: corn x 3 and cows x 2 i think
18:31 yeah they give a nice boost if you have enough food already

Darrell: seems like plako took the same start and mixed around the AH and calendar resources
grassland cows...plains cows are good but not as good
but a grassland sheep trades 1/0/1 for 0/2/0
I like the food, but not at the cost of trading ahamemr for commerce
now, as FIN on a river its a different story
18:32 but none of mine are on a river
have no heard of silver yet, nor wheat
I ssupect someone has them

18:33 me: i think shoot may have wheat
and silks like us

Darrell: really

18:34 me: can't remember what else

Darrell: lets see silks, incense, spcies, dyes

me: this is all from memory

Darrell: so there could be one duplicate on the calendar resources
sugar
someone coul dhave sugar instead to balance it out

me: er

18:35 Darrell: Did we ban Ivory, or just WE?

me: yeah sugar is on our arm near you
can't remember

Darrell: me neither
oh
dyes
I saw a second source of dyes
I was thinkign of just giving you one to make you less miffed

me: but yeah i like the trading opps

Darrell: krill mocked me when i suggested that

me: heh

Darrell: that second one is going to be tough to beat kyan to I fear

me: we do seem to be quite close to you and shoot given the size of the map
18:36 and given who has met whom

Darrell: I would have probably done one thing different (not a knock, plako made a great map) and that's put tiny islands between mainland and the arms

me: yeah - it's so close for comfort
hence all that paranoia about being boated

Darrell: yeah

18:37 me: (we have a galley now - watch out for our warriors!)

Darrell: we have a galley too obviously

me: and rego lent us a trireme

Darrell: now that's darn nice of him...doesnt' really sound like him at all

me: yeah and quite hard since he hasn't played the turn and isn't signing OBs
our galley is in the north anyway

18:38 Darrell: if you want to get OB with him, dangle the magellan carrot
RoP might be needed for him to have a shot at that

me: we're settling abroad soon on an uncontested island
so the galley is helping out with that
yeah not sure about needing to get through his borders - depends where he has settled
i need to see the pics
18:39 or him to get through ours
i think there are more ways round

Darrell: I could see him using a tireme to bulldoze through and deal with the fallout later

me: heh, really?
i don't see that

Darrell: I think if he only needed one civ to bulldoze, he would do it

PBEM8 chat:

me: unless he thinks he is in PBEM8

18:40 Darrell: man oh man I hope shoot carries a grudge

me: heh heh
it's more likely to be grudging request

Darrell: with physics/airships, that was a very careless play on his part

me: *respect

Darrell: yeah

18:41 me: i can't believe how many units can be built on quick speed
one minute he had some, next minute he had 60 cats

Darrell: the hardest thing coming from an SP/Normal game is figuring out the whipping
its just totally different

me: yeah

Darrell: well...he did not update his thread completely

18:42 me: no
but even so
i don't think i've ever had 60 cats

Darrell: I was asking him lots of chat questions along the way, and he went from 30 to 50 over several turns
then the last 10 was fast

me: in PBEMs you get to optimise tiles more - i never bother in SP

Darrell: he really got a lot of cavs too quickly

me: yeah he did
although some upgrades

18:43 Darrell: shoots first stack was pretty paltry, actually kind of insulting
the next stack was much better, and shoul dhave been enough

me: he split it up too much

Darrell: still not sure why he didn't ptu a bunch of airships in cumin, and wiat for some more infantry or MGs
yeah, and moved onto flat
even airships to ause some minor collatoral would have made the difference

me: yeah was there a way round that, though? i didn't really look too closely

Darrell: no way to avoid flat

me: yeah airships are a pain in the arse with AIs

18:44 Darrell: they are a great unit

me: i never build them because they annoy me
:-)

Darrell: I am a dedicated lurker, but I think WK is going for bombers
shoot is in trouble now
its a really interesrting metagame decision

me: yeah

Darrell: 2 big dogs and a pup, do you focus on the other big dog, or try and eat the pup

me: who breaks first

18:45 Darrell: well shoot put a lot of hammers into those units, and if WK is waiting for a tech edge he shoul dhave the pop to outproduce him and outclass him

next 10 turns will decide the game is my bet

me: the drop in power graph was fun to see

18:46 Darrell: rego got a kick out of it that was for sure

me: hours on one turn

Darrell: that boy is paitent, he was IMing me the whole time

me: and WB-ing it all

it's borderline gamey that really

Darrell: he'd ask me what'd I'd do, I'd tell him, then he'd say "maybe I just WB it"

I think it was a wast e tbh

me: no different to a sandbox i guess, but it feels a bit gamey nevertheless

Darrell: with that many units you can do the math on probabilities and it will be close enough
18:47 doing it in turn is borderline

me: yes indeed

Darrell: if you want to preview a battle beforehand I guess that is okay
18:48 I guess I gotta get back to work now...talk to you later

Darrell: and remember, I'm very very close to mono
practicaly any second

me: ok, i didn't tell him in our recent note
but will next time

Darrell: cool

me: i don't want to make it too obvious

Darrell: sure, undestood

me: bye[/SPOILER]

[spacemanmf]

So rego is actually so far NE he is SW.

And if we can see his eastern point, he has actually probably closest to Shoot's SE.

Part of yet more chat with darrell - this time relevant regarding the map layout. Kyan is 9SW of his capital and effectively to our north.. somewhere. Man it makes my head spin.

22:00 me: hey

Darrell: yo

22:01 me: having looked at the screenshot, rego is so far in the NE he's probably more in the SW

Darrell: I figured that was likely

me: so may be closer to you than us

Darrell: toroidal makes perpsective tricky
I have a warrior scouting down that way, I've got my eyes open for him
maybe I'll boat him


22:02 me: heh
oh and we can see ivory on one landmass near-ish rego

Darrell: interesting
very interesting
wonder if fur and deer are out there

22:03 me: both novice and i have been chatting on and off with rego this evening, but we haven't actually discussed civ as far as i can tell
oh shoot has deer
i remember now

Darrell: don't let his jedi mind tricks work
actually he is a really nic guy

22:04 me: he certainly seems a nice guy - i wasn't doubting that
shoot has crabs + fish, we have clams + fish

22:05 Darrell: we have lcams+fish too
so shoot lacks crabs
clearly some resrouce circle trading is expected

22:06 me: yeah, and the map is better for that

Darrell: well its so rich I think everyone will be swiming in food, so happy trading is a must

22:07 me: aye
whereabouts is kyan again?

22:09 Darrell: he is about 9 tiles to my SW
of my capital
give or take
I have a galley that shoudl be there pretty soon
well, 5 turns
5ish
22:10 That is one thing I dont have micro'd is my troop movements
with this vast army its just too difficult

me: heh

22:11 Darrell: I thikn Kyan is north (or south of you) by not a lot

22:12 me: ok

i'm waiting for your master map anyway

22:13 Darrell: hey now I said in the morning

me: didn't say how long i would be waiting, did i

Darrell: that you did not

[novice]

More chat with darrell, basically discussing dissuading rego from going for Judaism...

I saw that, so I sent him (Darrell) a quick note on chat that Judaism was founded on T45...