Unfinished business - SG for improving at Civ 4 (sic)

[Zalson]

Overall plan sounds good. I'm sure most of the nitpicks are justified - you could play a little mini game in former Celtic lands called "AI or ST?" over every tile ... I'll be interested in seeing what your signs say.

Well, the whole point of nitpicking is that ... you're just being critical. so cheers to you for taking the criticism so well. I'll try to take a shot of the changes. For the most part, it is just paving over undeveloped cottages with farms, growing to size, and then switching over to workshops. There are also just a few places where we have farms that are no longer required.

It's worth bearing in mind that every major action I took (such as giving back Isca) was made on the basis of whether it would help or hinder the attack on Mansa. I think that once Mansa is dead and his wonders assimilated then we're just crisping the batter on the meal. Having to fight him if gets cuirs and we're spending resource simultaneously fending off Boudicca doesn't seem fun (although winnable, as we'd get cannon about the same time worst case*). So buttering up Boudicca and getting enough military mattered to me more than making our winning position even stronger in the event of a successful attack. 

That said, giving back Isca could well have been a mistake. I over-estimated the diplomatic effect, underestimated how many tiles we'd lose back around Camulodunum and forgot about the free units (all of which I could have got right with some research or actual counting). I do think that the current border is more defensible, with the new Celtic cap being more than three tiles from any of our cities, but that and the diplo gain probably don't balance the loss of the city and the silk tiles.

I think the real issue is that we know that Boudica is going to attack us again. There's not much we can do that can forestall that bad blood. Additionally, she was down to 3 cities I think? There's not much of a threat from 3 cities.

I'm still not convinced about the religious buildings ahead of courthouses (before the forge I can agree with - I was lazy about changing inherited builds last turnset and didn't spot the lack at Zar before I whipped the forge). 4-6gpt saved (depends on the city) is roughly similar in value to 4hpt, and we can build a courthouse faster than a temple and a monastery pair, so globally we're better off building the courthouse first (ignoring cultural, science and happiness benefits). There may be specific local benefits (for example, if we had Hinduism in our new border cities I would have prioritised them for the culture), but I didn't feel these applied to Zar (and anywhere else I could have built them but didn't).

Once we get UoS and SM, the religious buildings are significantly more valuable; I'm not sure exactly how to calculate the tradeoff between the courhouses at 120 h (+100%) vs ... 4 H at 140 hammers without the monk trio. Can someone help us crunch those numbers?

Windmills were definitely me. As you say, we're not working those tiles currently, and the only way we can hope to do so is to get at least some food in. The mills are 1/1/1 tiles, compared to 0/3/0 for mines, which doesn't seem a bad trade off to me, with replaceable parts making them 1/2/1 soonish. If we're never going to work them, then what difference does it make? A small chance to get a resource each turn, I suppose? Or just the ability to switch to truly high production for a burst if wanted in a post-whip world? Genuinely interested in the reasoning here.

I'll have to look at the game to be sure but I am planning on working one or both of the mines to stagnate at size 14? 16? So, yeah, supplementing the non-whip build order would be the order of the day. And we can always put back the windmills. This was more along the lines of the "don't farm a tundra rivierside tile" nitpick.

The lack of missionaries is sad, but my focus was on getting in to a position to kill Mansa before he gets any more military techs. Once he's dead or crippled, our existing Mfg edge is so overwhelming that even a hundred or so missed hammers, or lost turns in revolt at Celtic cities won't seriously affect our game . Delaying taking Timbuktu would matter more (in my mind); I may have over-compensated, but I would have felt much worse if the nitpick had been "not enough units - will have to delay attack"!

This was the nitiest of the nitpicks. And yes, having 14 trebuchets should work out fine.

*Of course, Mansa ended up going for Constitution instead, so this worry was moot. This game is a great example of why I (who will probably never get beyond mediocre by RB standards - I just don't have the focus) still need to start playing humans instead of the AI:
- He's teching peaceful tech after tech while we sit an army 6 tiles from his cap
- He's built UoS, SM and Sistine and is in free religion. Correct, me if I'm wrong, but he gets no per-building benefits while he has no state religion, does he?
Against that, he's ignored Lib and has slow-teched Nat (and now Con) which would be really smart if he were saving it for next-tier tech safe in the knowledge that we are too far behind to catch up. If it wasn't for the fact that we're going to kill him first.

I think he gets a 1/2 benefit for the temples?

Yeah, he gon' die.

[Zalson]

Inter-turn update: end of turn 207, I have taken Djenne, Goa, and Timbuktu. That is all.

Oh, I also declared war on Qin because Charlemagne asked.

[haphazard1]

Sounds like excellent progress against Mansa.

Qin is distant, and hopefully his army is occupied. So maybe you will not get bitten on that one. Maybe.

[shallow_thought]

Well, the whole point of nitpicking is that ... you're just being critical. so cheers to you for taking the criticism so well.

I think the real issue is that we know that Boudica is going to attack us again. There's not much we can do that can forestall that bad blood. Additionally, she was down to 3 cities I think? There's not much of a threat from 3 cities.


Once we get UoS and SM, the religious buildings are significantly more valuable.

One of the major points of this game (for me) is to learn; getting comfy beating the AI on emperor is nice, but it will take better play still to avoid too much embarrassment in MP. So nitpicks are fine.

I'm actually hoping that with the switch to Hindu and our power rating Boudicca is going to leave us alone (we, of course, have no plan to leave her in peace); but yeah, three cities. I could have stayed on course there.

Hm, having UoS and SM would certainly change things, but we don't have them yet. Oh wait, yes we do  

Declaring on Qin to keep Charly happy seems fine to me; is Spain getting involved too? I don't see Qin being able to get to us, unless he's going to send caravels to plunder our fishing boats (if he even has optics).

[haphazard1]

Stray caravels, maybe. But when declaring war you never know just where that civ may have a stray unit, sent out wandering long before. I have been bitten by that more than a few times. And while fishing nets can be repaired, it is annoying and disruptive to lose them.

Claiming all of Mansa's wonders should certainly do some nicely positive things for your economy. And also culture -- didn't he have Sistine's as well?

[Brian Shanahan]

Haphazard, I'll let Austin Powers field your last question



Zalson, great work on Mali. I think swallowing him will actually put us in a winning position, just to push on from there.

Do we want Domination or full Conquest?

[shallow_thought]

Zalson, great work on Mali. I think swallowing him will actually put us in a winning position, just to push on from there.

Do we want Domination or full Conquest?

It's half tempting to go culture now with all the goodies Zalson has grabbed, but that would be boring for the lurkers.

We'll see how it goes with grabbing maybe Liberalism and Taj assuming that we can wreck Mansa so fast he doesn't grab Lib and we can beat Charlie to Taj. But yeah, with power split amongst the other AIs, we're in a position to ... really concentrate on our micro to look good!

I'm actually not sure how we'd actually achieve conquest from here rather than dom. Raze half the world? If so, I'm happy with domination. Medium term, Boudicca and Izzy die in either case.

[Brian Shanahan]

Capture Boudica, Capture Izzy, raze pretty much everything else with a few combat settlers along for healing purposes.

[Zalson]

shallow thought: here are my most-signed regions.




T201
Certain cities (like Moura Encantada) are too far away to contribute to the war effort. So it’s just park them on wealth for the time being. I’m not sure that’s the best choice but there’s not much else there to build.



Bribracte … gets a revolt and Isabella is the new pope. Great. It had just popped borders, too.  I’m not sure if this is from Isra or just from Vienne.

Next turn, cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.


T202
I put a turn into espionage to make sure we could revolt Gao (or at least have 2 tries).

So we’re up against this:


With this




If that’s not a casus belli than I don’t know what one is. Well, let’s just head him off at the pass, shall we?




Lost one knight attacking Gao but, well, we got it.


And after this, I’ve made a critical error: I forgot to fortify Gao. There’s just one knight. in the city.

He can hit it with 3 knights next turn. Idiot.


T203
OR A COMPLETE GENIUS!

Throw a cat at the stack and then knock it out to protect the supply line. Grab some easy XP - no casualties.


Then the stack marches toward Timbuktu.

T204
Charlemagne is out of a Golden Age. Mansa does not counter attack.



T205
Returning Isra was a bad choice.


Timbuktu to 0: check.

However, going to wait until next turn to take the city. I’d like to use max collateral on that gang.


T206
Charlemagne asks us to declare war on China. Seeing as there’s no way that China is going to be our friend ever, I agree. What a stupid AI request.



The battle of Timbuktu
2 suicide trees open the floodgates.
Lose 2 more in the middle of the bombardment at 80% odds but …




We get Timbuktu. It has:



11. 11 wonders. Note, also, the difference in GNP: from -280 a turn to -210 a turn.

Whatever you do: don’t take Kumbi Saleh until Mansa finishes Versailles. (EDIT: … that’s his capital… )



Dejenne’s got the SoZ so it’s the next target. I should be able to hit it next turn, actually. I have enough knights.



T207
I continue to make bad choices. I should have run 0% science and kept all our trebs and catapults in Timbuktu and upgraded them next turn. Alas.

In other news: Heel, Mansa. Heel.


In other, other news: Lose a spy: take a city. (spy got caught but totally worth it)


Well, also lose a few too many knights (4) but still. I think it was worth it? (It would have helped if I had promoted some of them… brain fart).


Had to stop the session here because I was making bad choices. Or rather, just not thinking through things.

[Zalson]

New day, new turns. Starting with T207:

Research is set to Music so we can abuse the culture bug in our new conquests.

We need to start thinking about a location for the iron works. I think we’re going to prefer nationhood to Bureaucracy so that makes me think that … Timbuktu is thefts location for it. Additionally, we’ll need a forbidden Palace. Bagacum might be a good location. Or maybe Tolosa.

T208
Start Globe Theatre in Camulodunum. Make sure to whip into (overflowing 30 this turn. Then next turn, start a forge, then whip that into the Globe.

Stack outside of Kumbi Saleh and a blitzing stack sent to harass Awdaghost.



Grab philosophy, heading into Nationalism.

T209
Drop Kumbi Saleh to 0% and I have 4 trees left. So let’s see how this goes.


Lose 1 treb at 40% odds.
Lose 1 tree at 75% odds (come ON!)
And the last 2 withdraw at 80% odds.

And that gives us 99%+ on the attack which means:



4 cities left. Well make that 3. I brute-forced tadmekka although I could have done it cleaner (just using DR3 oromos)



After some hemming and hawing, I keep Tadmekka. It’s size 6. That’s better than a poke in the eye.

And we have forces outside Awdaghost of them. No collateral though. It should be enough to brute force it but … we’ll have to see.

T210
AP asks us to stop trading with Qin. Since he’s already an enemy, I see no reason why not.


Bribracte pops its borders and then revolts … again. We really shouldn’t have traded away Isca.



Anyway, I’ll leave it here. Brian, we can wait outside Awdaghost and we should be able to force our way in there at the same time we take Niani.

I leave you with this:


And this:





I’ve got a settler on goto to this spot. Got another one headed to needs CS to get us Incense, but we’ll need at least 5 or 6 more (just to claim our area).



Most new units are headed toward Bagacum for us to resume the war on Boudica.

I mismanaged some units while heading up to Mansa. We really should be able to blitz him. His northern cities are nothing much and we have enough to force our way into the southern city. Sorry, I could have killed him this turnset and I didn’t realize it.

I didn’t check victory conditions but, if we can consolidate our forces and get rifles in the next 30 turns, I might be able to finish it — or set up Brian to finish it. We are tremendously mighty.

Isabella does have the AP — and she’s a close Ally — might be worth it to take down Qin. that, or we can try for the AP victory in a few.