[Spoilers] Defining the phrase "€˜Hung Like a Horse"€™: Pb & the Kuriotates

[pocketbeetle]

Thanks for the updates PB

Hey! Good to hear from you. =)

I'm going to pretend you wrote that using a laptop and a wireless connection while on a beach sipping pina coladas.
(Rather than the more likely case of some dank internet cafe on an island somewhere.)

Which religion are you planning on converting to?

You mean it's not obvious?
I bet if I made it into a multiple choice question you'd get it!

Things are still slightly hazy, but the first religion I'm going to convert to is RoK, for its early game gold boost.
That extra income will help fund expansion and more turns at 100% research.
Even just the holy city and one city (without temples which each give +2gp/t) are reducing my current maintenance costs by a third from -12 to -8, and once I can get RoK priests and merchants in my settlements, those numbers only get prettier.

For example: an initial investment of a Settler (146h, EXP = 73h) + RoK Priest (80h) = 150h results in a settlement which produces 1 base commerce + 1 gp (RoK religion) + 2 gp (RoK temple) + 3 gp (merchant) = 7gp/turn ie payback within 22 turns. Remember zero maintenance.
That's not taking into account the related shrine income, nor possible hammer reductions on the RoK Priest (God-King hammer bonus, Heroic epic, Command Post etc).
In short, lots of cash, and I'm not going to rule out a possible research of Arete/Mines of Galdur build (provides Iron and 3 Engineer slots - Avelorn anyone?)

However, it's my experience that RoK tends to fizzle out slightly in the endgame, its heroes are not amazing, the level 2 divine spell Shield of Faith is a passive fire and forget spell giving permanent +10% str etc.
That's where OO comes in, with Saverous (decent melee hero), Hemah (powerful early Archmage hero), Tower of Complacency (Globe Theatre world wonder), Asylums (+15% science building) and Lunatics (base str 7 collateral causing unit).

The one sucky thing about RoK is the lack of culture, so I may have to occasionally switch to OO for short periods to pop settlement borders/spam a few OO Priests who can then forcebuild OO temples (OO temples give +3 passive culture no matter the state religion).

I have no plans for following AV, and after OO I'm going to make a conscious effort to avoid chasing any more religions.
Empyrean for Chalid Astrakein is something I may consider, but that's a long long way away yet.

Switching to RoK will come when Kwythellar has access to the religion, which is why Caledor will be building a RoK temple (and then missionary) soon.

[Ilios]

You mean it's not obvious?
I bet if I made it into a multiple choice question you'd get it!

Ofcourse it's obvious, but I'd rather you tell me than the other way around.

Thanks for laying that out!

[pocketbeetle]

Fun Bug #2:

Something I noticed while founding Avelorn: I didn’t get the option to choose whether it should be a megacity or settlement.
Turns out, in multiplayer, the Kuriotates can’t build settlements before all their megacities have been settled, to avoid crashes.
I vaguely knew this, having read it somewhere early on, but clearly I decided to blank it from my mind and forget about it.

So, what does that mean?
Well it’s potentially very troublesome, as I still have one more megacity to found.
My intentions moving forward were to get the three cities already founded up and running while building a few settlements.
Those settlements would've helped to solidify my grip on the territory I currently hold, brought in some income via RoK and claimed a few more resources.

That would have given me more time to do some scouting to the South, at which point I would have presented you guys with a multiple choice question about where the next city should be placed.
That multiple choice would have been loaded with a sneaky ‘None of these’ option, whereupon I would have pointed out how terrific a city location this was:



Look at it.
River, plains hill plant, four food resources, three of which are farmable, two riverside commerce resources and plenty of hills for production.
Sigh.

So being able to choose whether to build settlements or the fourth city would have given me time to evaluate the surrounding area, whether it was worth trying to take that spot, and if so, to build an army.
Given that I don’t have a choice, and I do want some settlements up asap in areas like this…



…it would seem I’m going to be forced to settle my fourth city South, leaving a wide front with Selrahc and delaying any settlements until I can explore that area.
Best candidate I can see so far is that there’s a river south of Avelorn, and a flood plains tile there.

Shame.

[Adlain]

I like your Original Pink dot better

[pocketbeetle]

I like your Original Pink dot better

Yeah me too.
It's just that I'd need a big army to take it, and I can't afford to wait that long without settlements.

There may be the possibility of striking a deal with (Iskender?) in the future, say he razes the fourth city so I can settle that spot.
But that's total speculation on my part.

In the meantime, there's some interesting diplo going on.
Sareln is being surprisingly inventive.

[pocketbeetle]

Diplo:

Conversation with Selrahc while wondering why the save was being held up:

(7:21:21 PM) Selrahc: Sareln might be getting eliminated this turn.
(7:22:04 PM) pocketbeetle: That was quick
(7:22:19 PM) Selrahc: Yeah
(7:22:36 PM) Selrahc: He only has 2 defenders
(7:22:42 PM) Selrahc: In his last city...
(7:22:54 PM) Selrahc: The priests can't attack, but the elementals can.
(7:23:02 PM) Selrahc: At 60% odds.
(7:23:28 PM) pocketbeetle: hmmm. Strange, did he lose lots of men at his second city?
(7:23:38 PM) Selrahc: None.
(7:24:03 PM) Selrahc: I don't know what's going on, but if he's trying a counter attack it won't work
(7:24:12 PM) Selrahc: He's not close enough
(7:24:24 PM) pocketbeetle: Wierd
(7:24:34 PM) pocketbeetle: oh well, wish they'd hurry up!
(7:24:39 PM) Selrahc: Yeah
(7:24:50 PM) Selrahc: Did you adopt RoK on your last turn?
(7:25:19 PM) pocketbeetle: Nono, not yet. Don't want the turn of anarchy and don't have it in my capital yet
(7:25:38 PM) Selrahc: Right. Fair enough.
(7:25:49 PM) Selrahc: It doesn't really have much advantage right now anyway.
(7:26:11 PM) pocketbeetle: Yeah, need some settlements etc
Any idea if Illian cities can get a religion?
(7:26:25 PM) Selrahc: They can get one.
(7:26:30 PM) pocketbeetle: I know you can't research or build the buildings
(7:26:36 PM) Selrahc: Agnostic means the chances are reduced though
(7:26:46 PM) pocketbeetle: Interesting
(7:27:04 PM) Selrahc: I actually need to check if you can build temples in allied cities with the priests spells.
(7:27:14 PM) Selrahc: Because I might be in line to buy some later.
(7:27:31 PM) pocketbeetle: That's a possibility
(7:27:59 PM) pocketbeetle: What would you be looking for, the happiness bonus?
(7:28:20 PM) Selrahc: Well RoK is good all around.
(7:28:31 PM) Selrahc: Free gold
(7:28:49 PM) Selrahc: And happiness and culture bonus too.
(7:29:27 PM) pocketbeetle: Yeah. need to find some gems though. Wonder what religion Cull will go for? ()
(7:29:49 PM) pocketbeetle: Interesting little quandary for him now
(7:30:06 PM) Selrahc: Order is the other good dwarf choice.
(7:30:17 PM) pocketbeetle: Is it? Didn't know that
(7:30:34 PM) pocketbeetle: how come? Unyielding order, or the mil unit boost?
(7:30:35 PM) Selrahc: Reducing maintenance costs is handy.
(7:30:47 PM) Selrahc: And it adds even more to their production superiority
(7:30:52 PM) Selrahc: Basilica
(7:31:26 PM) Selrahc: I'd say he'll still go Runes though.
(7:31:28 PM) pocketbeetle: hmm, okay. Never really got around to building Basilicas and the Social Order civic.
(7:31:39 PM) Selrahc: And just live with not having the holy city
(7:32:00 PM) pocketbeetle: Here's hoping. Going to be a while yet before I can even think about building the shrine
(7:32:06 PM) pocketbeetle: or priests
(7:32:16 PM) Selrahc: It's more a late game thing for the dwarves.
(7:32:35 PM) Selrahc: Yeah, just something to thinki about eventually.
(7:32:52 PM) Selrahc: You could get the shrine up pretty quickly when you need to though.
(7:33:12 PM) Selrahc: An early prophet is pretty easy to make.
(7:33:55 PM) Selrahc: Temple of Kilmorph priest, plus Pagan Temple priest plus Pacifism
(7:34:26 PM) Selrahc: Have you made a GSage yet?
(7:34:36 PM) pocketbeetle: Yeah, but I need some academies first, plus the hammer cost of those two temples, esp considering I don't have philosophy to make the pagan temple useful
How's the maintenance costs doing for your new cit(ies)?
I'm suffering quite badly on three, I'd guess when you get four it's going to be worse
(7:35:04 PM) Selrahc: Down to 50% maintenance break even on three.
(7:35:21 PM) Selrahc: Going to have to hold off on settling for a little while.
(7:36:01 PM) Selrahc: If I go for more priest murder after Sareln it's going to be razing.
(7:36:07 PM) pocketbeetle: Yeah. On the plus side, it should slow down Bob also
(7:36:21 PM) pocketbeetle: Oooh, plunder gold
(7:36:52 PM) pocketbeetle: I think Bob has finished working now btw. So hopefully we should be able to manage at least 2/day
(7:37:08 PM) pocketbeetle: Although given today's progress...
(7:37:40 PM) Selrahc: Yeah
(7:38:29 PM) Selrahc: I'm actually fine with 1/day though.
(7:38:29 PM) Selrahc: It's the unexplained gaps that are painful
(7:39:12 PM) pocketbeetle: Yeah. Well I can explain yesterday's. I sent Cull the wrong save (again). And although I always respond to him quickly, he doesn't seem to check again on the Fridays
(7:39:38 PM) pocketbeetle: Hence why we've waited until afternoon Saturday to get started again
(7:40:11 PM) Selrahc: Right
(7:40:41 PM) Selrahc: Ah well.
(7:40:42 PM) pocketbeetle: For some reason I keep sending him the save you send to me (shrug). Who knows
(7:40:51 PM) Selrahc: Happening at a fairly nail biting time though.
(7:40:54 PM) pocketbeetle: lol
(7:41:59 PM) pocketbeetle: Oh, sorry I missed your GSage question - yes I maanged to get one out before my Philosophical trait ended. That's why my GNPs doing good atm
(7:42:28 PM) Selrahc: Right.
(7:42:39 PM) pocketbeetle: Saw you got one too. Good job
(7:42:49 PM) Selrahc: I've got mine due this turn.
(7:43:07 PM) Selrahc: Delayed it to get the priests out quicker
(7:43:19 PM) pocketbeetle: He popped end of last turn
(7:43:40 PM) Selrahc: Stasis is a bit annoying for adaptive leaders.
(7:43:50 PM) Selrahc: Means you didn't to properly leverage the philosophical before ditching it.
(7:44:13 PM) Selrahc: Yours?
(7:44:29 PM) pocketbeetle: exactly. Was hoping to maybe get two out. As it was, barely got one. Such is life
(7:44:30 PM) Selrahc: No, obviously not....
(7:45:20 PM) Selrahc: Saw you went for Financial too.
(7:45:30 PM) Selrahc: Aristograrianism?
(7:45:59 PM) pocketbeetle: yeah. Still haven't decided. Will decide once I get Education and then have to choose between cottages or getting CoL.
(7:46:39 PM) pocketbeetle: My capital just really sucks for commerce with no river
(7:47:07 PM) Selrahc: No river is basically awful.
(7:47:22 PM) pocketbeetle: btw
(7:47:37 PM) pocketbeetle: Is that cotton to your North within your cultural borders?
(7:48:08 PM) Selrahc: Yeah?
(7:48:37 PM) Selrahc: Um....
(7:48:37 PM) Selrahc: I'll go check
(7:48:48 PM) Selrahc: probably
(7:48:57 PM) pocketbeetle: Okay cool. Let me know when you manage to hook it up (won't be for a while yet I guess), and I'll try and make you a decent offer for it involving my silks.
(7:49:10 PM) pocketbeetle: Assuming I can't find any more cotton to the South
(7:49:24 PM) Selrahc: Okay
(7:49:25 PM) pocketbeetle: Just something to consider for the future
(7:49:41 PM) Selrahc: You seen any copper?
(7:49:58 PM) pocketbeetle: Not yet no.
(7:50:38 PM) Selrahc: Me neither.
(7:50:43 PM) Selrahc: Kind of odd.
(7:51:25 PM) pocketbeetle: Yeah I know. Doesn't bother me as much, but harsh on Cull and Bob if there's no copper on the map
(7:51:32 PM) Selrahc: Looks like he's online.
(7:53:32 PM) pocketbeetle: Yeah chatting to him
(7:54:04 PM) pocketbeetle: He says he may need to hold onto it a touch longer. Such is life
(7:54:23 PM) Selrahc: Ah well.
(7:54:37 PM) Selrahc: I'll have to find something else to distract me.
(7:54:57 PM) pocketbeetle: lol
(8:00:02 PM) Selrahc: The temple thing works.
(8:00:27 PM) pocketbeetle: oh really. so an ally can force a temple into another civ's city?
(8:00:34 PM) Selrahc: Yep
(8:00:42 PM) pocketbeetle: interesting indeed
(8:01:04 PM) Selrahc: It's guaranteed to spread the religion as well.
(8:01:10 PM) pocketbeetle: yeah
(8:01:14 PM) Selrahc: Unlike disciples

Summary of the above:

• Sareln abandoned his second city, no defenders.
  Has only 2 defenders in his capital.
  It would seem he’s counting on the 64% (1 – 0.6 * 0.6) odds of one of Selrahc’s Ice elementals losing to survive the next turn.
  
• Sareln has taken my advice and run.
  His power rating is worth more than two men, clearly they’re elsewhere, and not within striking distance of any of Selrahc’s cities.
  
• Selrahc is interested in RoK.
  He can’t follow it himself, but apparently it is possible for RoK priests to force a temple not only into settlements, but into other player’s cities also, eg agnostic Illian cities that otherwise could not build them.
  He was definitely sounding me out for a future trade of that sort. On the plus side I get increased shrine income and something(?) in return, while he gets at least +3gp/t and extra happy in each city that gets a RoK temple.
  Not sure if I’d go for this, I probably would, if only to make myself more indispensible (ie less killable) to him.
  
• GSage question.
  Really wanted to duck that question, but in the spirit of being a decent ally I let him know I had already popped a GSci.
  It might decrease his worry about my GNP, and with luck he’ll have forgotten/won’t notice when I (hopefully) pop a second GSci in around 17 turns.
  Although his ‘Right’ response worries me, he seems to use it when he hears something he doesn’t like.
  
• Illian economy.
  Running at 50% science to just break even on maintenance costs. Oh yeah, that’s gotta hurt.
  Keep following along to see the difference markets will make for the Kurio economy over the next couple of turns.
  
• Cotton.
  Let him know I’m interested in that cotton to the north of Silent Night.
  Maybe he’ll hook it up a little faster, remember it’s worth an extra +10% base commerce and 2 happy for me.
  
• He knows about the lack of copper.
  I immediately pointed out how awful that must be for Cull and Bob, and how little it mattered to me.
  

Brief conversation with Bob, I keep hassling him about our lack of contact and how he must be sitting on his ass:

(9:17:33 PM) BobChillingworth: looks like I'll be playing in a little bit
(9:17:59 PM) BobChillingworth: also your scouts suck
(9:18:03 PM) pocketbeetle: okay. Just trying to get it round before Iskender logs off. It's going on 2300 hrs for him
(9:18:13 PM) pocketbeetle: lol. F U. My scouts are godlike
(9:18:23 PM) BobChillingworth: stealing the veil also sucks
(9:18:27 PM) BobChillingworth: I wanted that
(9:18:37 PM) BobChillingworth: not like I was going to research it anytime soon, but still...
(9:18:37 PM) pocketbeetle: Couldn't possibly comment!
(9:18:45 PM) BobChillingworth: sheeeeesh

Looks like he’s paying attention to the turnlog at least.

And finally, we get to the reason for all this holdup:

Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 12:52:28 AM
Subject: Why the Turn is Running Slow‏

Hi PB,

I find myself in need of a temporary home while I flee from the
Illians with a settler. I have already secured a promise of a more
permanent home and would be willling to offer you gold, maps, 1 of the
palace mana (the Calabim have dibs on another) and a supply of elven
workers. I also have the map information that I have assembled, and
have already acquired hunting, though have not had the opportunity to
saturate the maps with my scouts.

The Calabim state that they are able to provide me with permanent
settlement in 13 turns + move-time. They would offer me a temporary
spot, but their additional city is surrounded by barbarians, making
such moves folly. My own settler will flee far from the Illians. So
the timeline looks something like this:

You loan me a city --> I found another city in a safe spot and you
reclaim yours --> The Calabim found me a permanent settlement, and I
rebuild from there, perhaps keeping the temporary outpost, perhaps
scrapping it / giving it over to the barbs, or handing it over to
either you or the Calabim.

Time is something of a critical factor in these negotiations, so
please follow up with either a positive or negative reaction as soon
as possible.

Sincerely,

Sareln

P.S. And now you know why the turn took so much longer than normal to
get through Bob... he says this is starting to sound like a CIV
pyramid scheme :P.

Hmm.
Good for him that’s he’s trying to find a way out of this; I’d like him to stick around a touch longer to keep Selrahc distracted.
But for me, this wasn’t much of a decision.

As stated, my side is with Selrahc in this conflict, which combined with the recent Legends culture boost (I’ve got no idea if I could keep hold of that culture in a multiple swap), plus the fact Selrahc would know instantly of any deal, plus the fact I’m messing around with religion founding, all = straight up no.

Hi Sareln,

Your offer is extremely generous, but I simply can't accept.

I recently used my worldspell to expand my third city's borders, and I can't afford to lose that culture.
There are other reasons also, including a complicated religion founding scheme.

Apologies,
Pb.

And brief conversation to confirm that:

(9:58:56 PM) pocketbeetle: Hey
(9:59:06 PM) pocketbeetle: Just replied, sorry I really can't help here
(9:59:19 PM) Sareln: kk, no worries.
(9:59:21 PM) pocketbeetle: If you can get Bob to aid, go for it

<Gap>

(10:13:46 PM) pocketbeetle: So are you utterly screwed then? Or can Bob help you?
(10:14:19 PM) Sareln: We need an additional sponsor. The barb activity around Nubia means that even if Bob wanted to, loaning me the city wouldn't do much.
(10:15:24 PM) Sareln: I rewrote my message and sent one along to the Dwarves. Though they haven't been particularly active this game message-wise, so I don't know what sort of participatory resonse we would get from them.
(10:15:55 PM) pocketbeetle: Yeah. Do you have contact with the Hippus? Can Bob not move some warriors up to protect?
(10:16:06 PM) Sareln: I have contact with everyone.
(10:16:10 PM) Sareln: I'm just working in order
(10:16:24 PM) Sareln: mainly b/c with the dwarves, they're close enough I can offer to place my temp city on their dotmap, know what I mean?
(10:16:50 PM) pocketbeetle: I understand. Okay, well I hope it works out
(10:16:58 PM) Sareln: so do I :D

Interesting that Bob is willing to help out, it’s not a bad deal.
Svartalfar palace give Shadow, Nature and Mind mana, the latter two can be extremely useful.
Whether it will slow Bob down a lot though is an open question.

Lastly, I hope this doesn’t lead to a polarisation of the world vs Selrahc (and me).
But if it does, then I’d rather be on the Illian's side at the moment. =)

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 78:

Festivals splashscreen on loading up, it enables Markets, Carnivals (+1 happy, +20% culture, allows building of animal pens if you capture the relevant animal) and the Grand Menagerie world wonder.

The Grand Menagerie is a powerful wonder (create one of each type of animal pen then build a cheap 80h wonder to get +2 happy in all cities, free Carnival in all cities, +1 bard specialist in city that built it), but it’s also pretty damn hard to build on account of the animal pens requirement. Need to be quick getting Hunters, AH for the tech to capture animals, then capture enough animals before they get phased out ingame by barbarian warriors.



There was also a non-event…event, which gives +2 AI attitude in a normal game.

The new worker Bob Marley moved onto the glh East of Kwythellar, Bob-A-Long completed the ph mine.
Oh, and markets for everyone!



Clicking end turn meant Kwythellar slammed in a 1t market, maintenance costs halved from -8 to -4gp/t (God-King +50% gold so +3gp/t increased to +4.5), Caledor will take another couple of turns to finish its market.

MftD research got pushed back a turn due to Kwythellar not working the oasis, should be able to catch that back up, needed the hammer overflow for a 1t workboat next turn.


Demographics:

• Bob gained +1 pop, so Nubia is now size 3(?).
  
• Cull gained a tech.
  
• Iskender gained a tech and +1 pop in his second city.
  

Tech:

Before I start with this one, some things to keep in mind:
Iskender took over the Hippus on T67, rival worst GNP 18 at the time.
But the next turn, T68, he settled a second city and so GNP went down to 17.
If we assume it’s stayed around there since then (Selrahc’s plummeting GNP has masked it recently):

Iskender:
Last turn that he researched a tech: T58 -> Assigned Crafting.
Next turn he researched a tech: T72
Therefore gap = 14 turns
GNP during period: 15-18 ie research 13-16
14 * 14.5 = 203b
It’s a touch inbetweeny, but I’d say AH at 193b is a reasonable fit, particularly for a Hippus player.
Looking at the numbers, I think it’s unlikely Iskender switched research.
Slightly weird of Archduke to research Crafting but then not continue straight on to Mining (wine resource?).

Iskender:
Last turn that he researched a tech: T72 -> Assigned AH.
Next turn he researched a tech: T78
Therefore gap = 6 turns
GNP during period: 16-17 ie research 14-15
6 * 14.5 = 87b

Umm, does he still have a level 1 tech undiscovered?
Ah yes, Exploration, it’s all good.

I’m still assuming that Iskender is the worst GNP, although Selrahc is certainly putting up a good fight for that title.

Cull:
Last turn that he researched a tech: T47 -> Exp or Anc Chants.
Next turn he researched a tech: T59
Therefore gap = 12 turns
GNP during period: 16, ie 14 research.
12 turns x 14 = 168b.
Assume it’s a level 2 tech and he’s been getting a prereq bonus, that leaves Fishing or Calendar at 172b.
Which one? Depends on what he researched on T47 unfortunately, which I don’t know.

If it was Exploration, then I’d say he researched it as a prereq for Fishing, in order to get a coastal food up.
Cull is in the same boat as Sareln regarding roads – he doesn’t need them any time soon; his area looked pretty hilly from what Vanilla Ice saw.

If it was Ancient Chants, then it could be either of the two.
I’d explain away the wierdness of researching Ancient Chants (pointless tech in itself) and not researching a tech it unlocks by saying that’s because of Athlete showing up to help out.

Graphs will hopefully tell me soon:
Food jump = Fishing,
GNP jump/Switch to Agrarianism/Capital growing beyond happy cap = Calendar.

Cull:
Cull’s GNP has been climbing recently, clearly he’s found some kind of commerce/happy resource as I guessed before, whether at his second city or capital I don’t know.
Cull is also the only competitor that I know about for the Heron Throne, so I need to keep a close eye on his research.
From the GNP graph back here.

Last turn that he researched a tech: T59 -> Assigned Calendar.
Next turn he researched a tech: T77
Therefore gap = 18 turns
(GNP-culture) during the period:
T60: 15 / T61: 13 / T62: 14 / T63: 15 / T64: 16 / T65-68: 16 / T69: 14 / T70: 14 / T71-74: 20 / T75: 26 / T76: 25 / T77: 25
= 321.

Which leaves me with the following choices: Education at 301b, Philo/Archery 323b, HBR/ KotE at 387b.
Fortunately I don’t have Cull down for Mysticism, which closes off Philo and KotE, nor does he have AH for HBR afaik. Which leaves Archery and Education.

Archery is a possibility (realised Mining unlocks it), he may have gone for archers to help deal with Selrahc’s Priests and/or the large amount of lizardmen I saw around his capital.
Education is the slightly wiser choice given we know he’s Financial and has a river, but that requires Cull to have researched Ancient Chants back on T47 and then inexplicably abandon it for 30 turns or so. It also implies that he doesn’t have any roads between his cities.
Meanwhile the effect of maintenance costs and running 0% science to collect gold (particularly with Khazad) can make the above beaker estimate go either way.

So I’m faced with two…unusual tech paths. But then, this is Cull.
I’m going to leave it open ended for now, either Archery or Education.

Cull has Agri, Calendar, Crafting, Mining, Exploration/Ancient Chants(?) and Archery/Education(?).
Bleh, I don’t like having so many question marks.

[pocketbeetle]

:zzz:
Slow weekend.

I sent a PM to Iskender, suggesting that IM was a good way to keep track of where the save currently was/ useful for finding out if there are delays.

His reply was fine, but included a joke at the end, specifically:

Feel free to add or invite me (does it work like this?), or threaten with Hyborem etc.
Cheers, Iskender

And I'm currently trying to figure out in my head how he knows that I founded AV.

• Turnlog - no use.
  We don't have contact, so he either gets 'Founded in a Distant Land' or no warning about AV being founded at all.
  
• Demographics - possible.
  City screen is no use for starters, Avelorn will never appear on that.
  It's very very unlikely he would be able to tell from a specific jump in GNP imo, especially since I completed research on the same turn and started on a tech with no prereq bonus, so my GNP overall dropped, but arguably not enough. (If he has figured it out from that though, I'm impressed.)
  
• Diplomacy.
  I know Selrahc and Sareln have contact with Iskender, while last time I spoke to Selrahc, Bob did not.
  Personally, I think Selrahc has been way too busy stomping around with the Priests to be engaging in chitchat.
  Sareln has also had other things on his mind, but it's possible he's passed on that information while trying to get this additional city donor for himself.
  Which just leaves Cull. I honestly can't remember if Cull has said he has contact with Iskender or not. When we first met he didn't, I know for sure.
  
• Wild guess.
  He could be just guessing that the civ with the highest GNP got it, and may be fishing for info.
  Entirely fair, but he sounded a little too certain in that pm for it to be a guess.
  

Of all those, diplomacy seems like the most likely option.

It's just I think Sareln has been too occupied with saving himself to be engaging in idle gossip.
Also if Sareln did pass on that I founded AV, why wouldn't he also mention it was from a free Savant, at which point Iskender *should* know that there's no risk of me getting Hyborem any time soon?
Yet equally, if Iskender has been getting Cull to be talkative that doesn't bode well for Kurio-Dwarf relations. (Admittedly Cull could be pissed with me if he had been intending to found RoK.)
And lastly, there's Bob, who we know spotted that I'd founded AV, and yet doesn't know I got it from a lair roll, assuming Selrahc and Sareln are not completely spilling the beans.

Hmmm.
Time to go fishing again I think.
I started writing out an email, but didn't send it off in time.

Instead, I hung around on chat, and the fishies came swimming into my net. =)

(12:44:09 AM) Sareln: last priest of winter picked up ICE II this turn, thought you should know. :P
(12:44:23 AM) pocketbeetle: Hey
(12:44:31 AM) pocketbeetle: Everything working out?
(12:46:05 AM) Sareln: Well, I'm not dead... that's a start I suppose :D
(12:46:20 AM) pocketbeetle: Okay, good for you
(12:48:21 AM) pocketbeetle: Like I said, I can't help you at the moment, but that doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for the crappy situation you're in.
It was a pretty aggressive move by Selrahc building those Priests, but equally gotta give him credit for executing it well.
(12:48:57 AM) Sareln: It was strong execution - and you did see how close we were.
(12:49:16 AM) pocketbeetle: Yeah. Map certainly doesn't help
(12:49:46 AM) Sareln: I was talking with Selrahc earlier today, he had 5 min to kill, and I'm thinking the only way I don't die to that is if I use a threat of warrior choke to force an NAP. (eg. we're signing an NAP now on T35 or else I will try to choke you b/c I lose anyways sort of business).
(12:49:59 AM) Sareln: of course, that's a bit belligerant and it's not really my style...
(12:50:28 AM) pocketbeetle: Nah, that's not really a possibility, not with Stasis
(12:52:22 AM) Sareln: yeah, true.
(12:52:44 AM) Sareln: I've just been trying to think around that right - Illians will rush you on T75, you're Svart, what do you do sort of thing.
(12:52:56 AM) Sareln: sort of like how you think about Build-Orders and such in an RTS.
(12:53:18 AM) pocketbeetle: Not easy, very hard to counter I think.
(12:54:05 AM) pocketbeetle: So, without trying to fish too much, have you completely sorted out your problem (ie found someone else to lend a city), or have you only temporarily patched it?
(12:56:02 AM) Sareln: Should be sorted.
(12:56:21 AM) pocketbeetle: Okay, good job, I won't ask any more questions on it
(12:56:35 AM) pocketbeetle: Last quick question - have you chatted much with Iskender yet?
(12:56:48 AM) pocketbeetle: I don't have official contact, but he seems quite fun from pms we've exchanged
(12:57:21 AM) Sareln: I haven't. I guess I should, shouldn't I? Take advantage of those hard-earned contacts.
(12:57:50 AM) pocketbeetle: Yeah. Oh well, catch you later then.

That last line didn't seem quite right to me.
He's desperately searching for someone to help him, so desperate that he's willing to overlook the 'rocky' Kurio-Svartalfar relations to date and approach me with his plan, yet didn't even contact Iskender?

But anyway, taking it on face value for the moment, that means there's only one other player who could have helped him then.
And wouldn't you know it, guess who came online at that exact moment?

(12:58:51 AM) pocketbeetle: Hey Cull
(12:58:56 AM) Cull RB: Hey PB

Someone, who as we've already outlined, isn't always the easiest person to find....
Just happened to be online same time as Sareln, and coincidentally Sareln's response time dropped straight away.

I had to swing for this one.

(12:59:11 AM) pocketbeetle: Just a quick question, I know you're busy with Sareln right now
(12:59:26 AM) Cull RB: You've been around

Not sure, but I think that was a hit!

(12:59:37 AM) pocketbeetle: Have you got contact/chatted much with Iskender recently?
(12:59:49 AM) Cull RB: No to both
(12:59:51 AM) pocketbeetle: I don't have official contact yet, but we've been exchanging PMs etc
(12:59:59 AM) Cull RB: Nope nothing thus far
(1:00:02 AM) pocketbeetle: Wanted to find out what he's like, seems fun
(1:00:07 AM) pocketbeetle: okay, thanks
(1:00:10 AM) pocketbeetle: Everything going okay?
(1:00:12 AM) Cull RB: No problem
(1:00:15 AM) Cull RB: well
(1:00:19 AM) Cull RB: relativly okay
(1:00:46 AM) pocketbeetle: Oooh. Well that line means I have to ask more questions
(1:00:57 AM) Cull RB: Indeed
(1:00:58 AM) pocketbeetle: Anything you want tooo shaaaaaaareeeee!
(1:00:59 AM) Cull RB: Ask away.
(1:01:16 AM) Cull RB: I managed to sleep more than 10 hours today
(1:01:25 AM) Cull RB:
(1:01:33 AM) Cull RB: How are things on your side of the world?
(1:02:05 AM) pocketbeetle: Good thanks.
Getting late now, wish we could have got more than 1 turn today, but I remembered to send the right save, and hopefully things will start speeding up soon
(1:02:21 AM) pocketbeetle: Bob won't be busy at work, so we may be able to move to 2 turns a day with luck
(1:02:22 AM) Cull RB: Indeed.
(1:02:27 AM) Cull RB: GASP
(1:02:29 AM) Cull RB: 2 turns a day
(1:02:33 AM) pocketbeetle: lol
(1:02:34 AM) Cull RB: that would be amazing
(1:02:50 AM) Cull RB: PBEM4 its stuck right now in one turn/four day
(1:02:53 AM) Cull RB: with some of my fault
(1:02:57 AM) pocketbeetle: yuck
(1:03:03 AM) pocketbeetle: That's not so much fun
(1:03:10 AM) Cull RB: Yup
(1:03:22 AM) pocketbeetle: Oh, if you meant my side of the world with regard to the game, things going good thanks
(1:03:33 AM) Cull RB: I meant game...
(1:03:40 AM) pocketbeetle: I got a 3rd city out, but the maintenance costs are breaking my back
(1:03:53 AM) Cull RB: I saw RoK founded
(1:03:56 AM) Cull RB: I assume it was you?
(1:04:19 AM) pocketbeetle: Yeah I got lucky with a GProphet, and that was the bulb option
(1:04:29 AM) Cull RB:
(1:04:31 AM) pocketbeetle: Hopefully it should help with my settlements a bit
(1:04:40 AM) Cull RB: any chance of spreading it to me at all, or am I being too direct?
(1:04:50 AM) pocketbeetle: I don't know what religion you're heading for, but if I can help with a missionary, just let me know
(1:04:58 AM) pocketbeetle: No not at all, I'd be happy to help
(1:05:20 AM) pocketbeetle: We'll probably have to wait until I can load one onto a boat, which will be a while though
(1:05:33 AM) Cull RB: Yeah that is true
(1:05:35 AM) Cull RB:
(1:06:08 AM) pocketbeetle: The other option is trotting it through Selrahc's lands, not sure how easy that will be though. We'll sort something out a little bit later though, if you're interested
(1:06:22 AM) pocketbeetle: Maybe you could meet it with an escort on the other side?
(1:06:35 AM) Cull RB: That would probably work best
(1:07:13 AM) pocketbeetle: Okay, well like the Sailing trade routes, we'll pencil that in.
Although don't forget, you really would need to research the RoK tech yourself to get maximum benefit
(1:07:33 AM) Cull RB: The temples are actually best IMO
(1:07:50 AM) pocketbeetle: I don't think you can build temples though without the tech, that's the thing
(1:07:57 AM) pocketbeetle: Take a look next chance you get
(1:08:21 AM) Cull RB: Hmm I think you could build temples
(1:08:23 AM) Cull RB: without the holy city
(1:08:35 AM) Cull RB: I need to eat dinner on might be on later tonight
(1:08:36 AM) Cull RB: see ya !

Unfortunately he ran off before I could return to the whole Sareln situation, but I'm starting to think that rather surprisingly, Cull has stepped in to help Sareln out.
I know they have at least reasonable relations, remember that whole screenshot question from earlier, but I guess we'll see next turn what the city counts are.

With regard to the whole AV thing, it looks like everyone is saying they haven't spoken to Iskender?
So either Bob has gained contact with Iskender in the interval, it was Selrahc, or someone's fibbing.

Diplo-wise, this game is getting interesting. =)

.

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 79:

All quiet on the Kurio front this turn, all the fun is happening in the diplo and demographics.

Bob Marley started mining the glh hill, Bob-A-Long, who completed the ph mine last turn, is going to follow the path below to go improve one of the silks.
About time I got that happy hooked up. It should take 7-8 turns and the beauty about it being on the river is that it’ll be connected instantly.



At Avelorn Bob completed the rice farm, will road it next, while Caledor grew at the end of the turn.
Caledor is currently working the 2f/2h deer, 4f/1c gl farm and the 3f sheep.



MftD research dropped by a turn midshot as Kwythellar went back to working the oasis, it also produced a 1t workboat.

The important news though, is that as expected Sareln still lives.
I received a note from Selrahc with the save saying that he was going ‘on a scavenger hunt’, ie he’d taken the Svart capital, but Sareln was still alive so he’s looking for a third city.
I don’t think he quite realises what’s going on yet:

Cull has definitely given his second city to Sareln, giving Sareln time run away with his settler and wait for the ‘free’ city gift from Bob, assuming that this is still Sareln’s plan and he hasn’t changed it since that email he sent me.
More on this at the end of the post.


Demographics:

I’ve included a couple of graphs for a quick look.
All those mines being built are starting to show in the Mfg Goods, meanwhile Bob continues to compete with me for best Crop Yield.
Keep in mind he has one less city than me, and those cities have less pop, that all translates to him throwing down a lot of farms…

• Score: All changes correspond to city gifting, nothing looks out of place.
  I’m just glad they did it this turn, and not last. That woudn’t have been fun.
  
• GNP: Selrahc’s took a big jump thanks to building an Academy in his capital.
  If he’s playing smart, he would have been running 0% science for the last couple of turns, knowing that a GSci would be popping and building up a cash reserve.
  Although saying that, I wonder how much cash he got from capturing Sareln’s two cities. Forgot about that, hmmm.
  Just took a look ingame, I’d guess he got around 50gp for Gereth Minar, and as much as 130gp for Thariss.
  Which means he potentially has more than me now, that’s not good.
  
• Sareln is now understandably the worst in most categories.
  Land Area (8 tiles), soldier count etc
  
• Rival Worst Approval: 50% - probably Cull.
  Cull’s gift means he only has one city, so his treasury is no longer being divided between two.
  At 150 gp, Dwarven Vaults give +1 happy, at 99gp or less they give +1 unhappy.
  I’ve tried to bend my head around what that suggests Cull’s treasury level is, but it’s not easy. Nevermind.
  

Let’s examine Sareln’s recent stunt from a uniquely selfish viewpoint, ie mine.

Good stuff:
My nearest neighbour is currently off warring on the other side of his empire.
I’m being left to peacefully chase religions and do other stupid stuff.
Relations with other civs are going okay, Cull is proceeding as best I can, Sareln is defrosting slightly…maybe. I couldn’t help him even if I wanted to with the city gifting.

Bad stuff:
Looks like the world is polarising into factions slightly, human players don’t trade cities between them like baseball cards without some trust being there. Currently the moving force behind this banding together is the power of the Illian army, but with my geographical location, Open Borders with Selrahc and similarly high score, I’m in danger of being lumped with the Illians. :thumbsdow
I don’t have contact with the Calabim or Hippus to try and negate this. :thumbsdow


If I leave Selrahc to stomp around aimlessly with his Priests looking for Sareln, that serves my purpose of keeping him occupied.
But if I do end up siding with him vs Bob, Sareln and maybe Cull, then I don’t want Selrahc wasting his military Golden Age lost in the wild wild wood.

Ideally, I’d like Selrahc to head straight for Bob now, and take his best shot at removing a long term threat from the game.
Question is, can I successfully point Selrahc at Bob? Dunno, not going to be easy I suspect.
Cull is a possible second choice, but selfishly, I’d rather keep a fellow RoK-following player. Additionally, I can see a better chance for good relations with Cull than with Bob.


Conclusion:
Let’s leave Selrahc to look for a couple of turns, let him get nicely worked up, then maybe a ratman should start whispering in his ear.

I shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that Selrahc is doing quite well though.
He has plentiful cash reserves, now has an academy just like me, has more cities including a second capital, and would now seem to be (finally) building workers.
And I am not, in any way, shape, or form, assuming that those Priests cannot simply head for me next. Giants soon.

Conspiracy theories abound!

[Rowain]

Giants soon.

So you are really going to build them now? I already wondered if you would.