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[SPOILERS] Xenu Turns (over) the Tables (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

(June 27th, 2018, 08:35)scooter Wrote: You're gonna show us more than a couple charts, right?

Yes, I'll post an actual update soon.  Here's the scene from the end of this turn.




Wife is irritated that I spent the whole time she was watching the Brazil/Serbia recording playing my turn.  I think we should suspend this Civ game while the world cup is on.  No man should have to choose between soccer and Civ. cry

Played: Pitboss 18 - Kublai Khan of Germany Somalia | Pitboss 11 - De Gaulle of Byzantium | Pitboss 8 - Churchill of Portugal | PB7 - Mao of Native America | PBEM29 Greens - Mao of Babylon
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(June 27th, 2018, 22:21)spacetyrantxenu Wrote: Yes, I'll post an actual update soon.  Here's the scene from the end of this turn.

Looks like this was a lie.

Can I placate the masses (?) of lurkers by claiming to have unlocked opening the PB38 UN (player trash talk) thread two turns ago?




I can't really tell from the image if anyone else has a full set of contacts, I'd have to check in game, but we don't need actual facts as this is after all 2018.  I'm just going to claim to be first.

Brief summary, I'm still trying to end the war with 2MN but before I can do that I will have to banish him to his island city (let's call it St. Helena), and then welcome him back home in a suitable box to be laid in a final resting place.  I'm thinking something like this will do:




I think I'm treating his memory fairly, as 2MN put up a heroic defense against (at its peak) four invaders.  Well done, you've earned a palatial final resting place!




Real update at some point...in the future!

Played: Pitboss 18 - Kublai Khan of Germany Somalia | Pitboss 11 - De Gaulle of Byzantium | Pitboss 8 - Churchill of Portugal | PB7 - Mao of Native America | PBEM29 Greens - Mao of Babylon
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So, about these so-called real updates...
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(August 17th, 2018, 20:47)Boldly Going Nowhere Wrote: So, about these so-called real updates...

It's fake news! You're fake news!

Played: Pitboss 18 - Kublai Khan of Germany Somalia | Pitboss 11 - De Gaulle of Byzantium | Pitboss 8 - Churchill of Portugal | PB7 - Mao of Native America | PBEM29 Greens - Mao of Babylon
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Not anymore! Update!! whip
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As explanation of my post in the tech thread, I'm fine to concede to Mack since he's obviously in the driver's seat in this game right now.  His demographics are superior, at least they were as of two turns ago when he started dumping a lot of EPs against me.  I guess he did that when I closed borders to kick out his exploring chariot, but I digress.  Anyway, he's more or less tied with TBS in crop yield, is way ahead in manufacturing, and isn't having to draft his empire every turn to keep up in military builds.  Speaking of those, I'm pretty sure Mack has a monopoly on building cannons for now, since he saved a cool 8,000 beakers via Liberalism on Steel.  So that's helpful.  Civstats shows he has been building a lot of new cities over the last couple dozen turns, just like TBS, Old Harry, and Commodore.  So those are the Astronomy civs who evidently accomplished the new world land grabs.  The difference is that Mack made his colonial expansion at the same time he was conquering old world civs (Hello to Rusten and Naufragar!  Goodbye to Aretas....).  I haven't explored the conquered lands and won't now that I've closed borders, but I'm going to make an assumption that Mack's captured territory is more immediately valuable once incorporated into his empire than newly settled new world cities that the Astro civs are settling.  That's another plus in Mack's column compared to TBS if the demographics aren't enough - while both of them are growing, Mack's growth is faster as far as I can tell, which is increasing his lead.  Oh, and there's the small matter of grabbing the most profitable shrine in the game from Rusten, an advantage TBS obviously lacks.  As the owner of probably the second most productive shrine in the game, I'm sure Mack is getting a nice boost every turn from holding the Hindu shrine.  But again, I digress.

More relevantly, there's the part about going out and winning the game.  It's starting to look like Mack is setting up for a culture victory, given the religion spreads I've seen in the last few turns in a few of his cities.  I could be wrong, maybe the recent spreads are for monastery science bonuses, but that's short lived at this point in the game and wouldn't seem worthwhile.  I'm more convinced Mack is deciding (as a PHI leader no less) that going for a culture victory is more plausible on a map this size than domination, space, etc.  I'm going to guess that by now won't come as a surprise to anyone that I'm working toward a CV also, but my chances of winning are basically 100% predicated on the top tier players battling each other to the point where they're too busy to stop me from winning.  I don't think that's very likely to happen, and it's even less likely to happen if TBS isn't able to act as a counterweight to Mack out in the field.  At his current size I don't see anyone else being able to grow and consolidate to the extent that they'd be able to challenge Mack's commanding production lead, so really contesting a military power of his scale while he pursues a culture win is kind of hard to find likely.

So, with two paragraphs of why Mack is going to obviously win this game let's now make the case for why we should continue anyway, wherein I obviously will win. lol There's already a small enough chance to win that it's questionable that it's worth the effort of pursuing, but from my perspective the one valuable service I can provide this game is putting a guaranteed expiration date on it (this assumes the other contenders are busy enough fighting each other that they don't kill me).  If left to my own devices I think I can win this game in 50-60 turns.  That's a really long time off to project in game time and I'm notoriously not a micro/planner type so this is essentially a WAG based on eyeballing cathedral builds and figuring out how long it may take to starve artist cities, etc. Here's the rub, though, it seems like that many turns would be about another half year of play time at the rate we've been going lately.  I'm not really interested in putting in another half year into playing out the string, on the off chance I might win it by some happy accident (or by dint of immaculate planning, if you're obscenely charitable in your perception of my game play).  I'm not a particularly good player but I'm consistent in effort, and when I get turns to play it routinely consumes at least an hour of my night.  I've enjoyed it up to now, for 173 turns, but another six months of playing while losing focus from uneven turn pace really isn't that attractive to me right now.  I'd rather end the game than continue in the state we've been in.  But if we can pick up the pace again, though, who knows, maybe the game makes it to the finish line after all with Jebediah basking in the glory of a victory hard(ly) earned by good luck, middling to decent play, and wonder whoring (and getting away with it).

All hail struts and boosters!










Played: Pitboss 18 - Kublai Khan of Germany Somalia | Pitboss 11 - De Gaulle of Byzantium | Pitboss 8 - Churchill of Portugal | PB7 - Mao of Native America | PBEM29 Greens - Mao of Babylon
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If the turn ever rolls again (or I guess if it doesn't) I'll log in and take pictures of everything for posterity.  It's a shame to end the game now when it's still interesting for my civ but as stated before I have no interest in playing this game for months on end getting 1.5 turns per week.  Even if I did get close to winning by culture I'm sure Mack or somebody else (OH) would smash in and stop me.  Even with that said, though, it would probably be pretty cool to see the carnage.  Oh well.

Note for next game:  Don't let the game end when you're a few turns from springing your second golden age. smoke

The plan as of time of concession was more or less to tech Drama (1t) and Philo (1t) T175 and T176, tech Education, Liberalism, swap civics (into pacifism/environmentalism to go with rep/caste/OR) and pop the golden age.  During the GA food heavy cities would prep for later starving artists, taking advantage of the GA/pacifism bonuses toward artist GPPs.  I would be working on spreading around my five religions, building up temples to unlock cathedrals.  Cathedrals were going in to the three culture cities (and two alternates):

1. Jebediah (greatest, bestest city in the world)
2. Bill (holiest city in the world -- Jewish shrine, Muslim holy city)
3. Kerbin (formerly 2MN's capital city, which happened to be the third most cottaged city in my empire)
3b. Dinkelstein (Moai city, alternate because it has the production to easily build the cathedrals, and alternate because it would be very likely to survive as a primary in case of invasion)
3c. Mun (National epic, alternate because it would be focused on churning out great artists, but in the process it would be generating massive culture of its own).

After spreading religions and building temples all non-culture cities would be building units for like 30 turns until funds ran low, then mix in wealth builds to maintain 100% culture slider as long as possible, then straight starve all cities that had developed artist great person pools to get the GA bombs ready, etc.  If you've been around this forum you've read detailed accounts of how to run a competitive culture victory elsewhere, there's nothing new here.  The only question would come down to TBS keeping Mackoti busy enough that he couldn't stop me from winning, or me being able to hold off Old Harry long enough after he inevitably consumed Joey, then probably William, then possibly Donovan for the hell of it.  Anyway, despite winning being technically possible it isn't anywhere near realistic enough to keep playing this game.

Maybe a fun variant game would be to play as <insert civ here> to a victory condition against the AI, starting from T175.  If I had to rank the degree of difficulty from easiest to hardest from what I know right now (against the AI!!), it would be:

Likely/Possible Victory Tier:
1. Mackoti (cruise control, roll your own victory adventure)
2. TBS (beat AI Mack, get peace, conquer someone else, profit...win)
3. Xenu (culture or die!)
4. OH (keep rolling down the continent, choose your own victory while fending off AI Mack/TBS wins)
5. Pindicator/Lewwyn  (same plan as OH)

This Could Be Interesting Tier:
6. Commodore (Hold the mainland, expand over plako, grab islands from whoever has them against incompetent AI)
7. Donovan Zoi (conquer Joey, conquer Xenu, conquer Adrien, conquer Mr. Cairo...basically start conquering things)
8. Gavagai (conquer dtay and Dreylin, hope for help against Mack and TBS? This one is iffy...)

This Is Asking For Trouble Tier:
9. dtay (Win war with Dreylin, survive...get help...? Attack southward?)
10. plako (Survive a while and make the greatest comeback ever!)
11. Dreylin (Win war with dtay, tech to naval supremacy/parity, control the seas? AAARRRRR!)

This Is Getting Suicidal Tier:
12a. Adrien (must conquer 12b!)
12b. Mr. Cairo (must conquer 12a!)
14. WilliamLP (must survive war with OH!)
15. Joey (see 14.)

Wishful Thinking Tier:
16. naufragar (conquer Adrien/Cairo/Xenu by sniping cities from an allied AI force? Good luck!!)
17. Elkad (Maybe you can reconquer old Korea from William, does that even do anything?)
18. Rusten (Not sure how you expand between TBS and Mack from here...)

This list is based on my perception of how likely you could take over the current civ and steer it to any kind of victory condition from the current game state against the AI.  I don't think it's realistic to get to a victory condition for anyone lower than Gavagai on this list and even that would take a lot of things going right to happen.  Just a fun thought exercise since there's no turn coming tonight, or ever. More random musings at some point as I adjust to not spending my evenings on this game again.

Played: Pitboss 18 - Kublai Khan of Germany Somalia | Pitboss 11 - De Gaulle of Byzantium | Pitboss 8 - Churchill of Portugal | PB7 - Mao of Native America | PBEM29 Greens - Mao of Babylon
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T176 - It's All Over!

Final game state for the Kerbal Space Program.  This post will cover the cities, aka, the many vehicle assembly buildings.

The top five cities for reference, you always want to do that when you have multiple on the list.  crazyeye




Starting with Jebediah, the capital and culture city #1, this may seem like a sad city for the best in the world but there it is.  I had just begun the process of converting mines into windmills to allow the city to grow onto its last four tiles.  It had always been more of a production powerhouse than commerce, hence the lack of an academy or financial infrastructure.  For the final culture run Jebediah would be working the three towns currently assigned to Bob along with its own commerce tiles, plus windmills. At some point I would add a grocer to solve future health issues and let the city grow to its maximum size, with excess population and the plains workshop tiles converting to artist specialists.  Given the extra commerce from being the capital this city probably would only get culture bombed once to get it over 50k and should be able to produce 1000 culture per turn by the time all five cathedrals are online (with culture slider).




A zoomed in look at the Pyramids, Sistine Chapel, University of Sankore, and Spiral Minaret.  I'm not sure why the builders put the SM's tower right in front of the palace, blocking the view.  They probably killed an architect over that one.




On to Bill, culture city #2 and surely the most inventively religious city in the world as a double holy city.  I only shrined the Jewish religion as there wouldn't be much profit this late in the game on obtaining and spending a great prophet on building the Muslim shrine.  At 94 gpt, the shrine was certainly the defining feature of this city, although the Apostolic Palace would be close second once you consider how many hammers that wonder provided to the empire.  I have 25 cities, 24 of which have the Jewish religion, 23 of which have Jewish temples and monasteries.  Each of those buildings provides 2 hammers (AP) + 2 gold (SM) + 2 science (UoS) for a tidy distributed economic input each turn.  I'm not sure how I managed to sweep the monk wonders in this game, but it was definitely working in my favor as I moved forward with trying to win by culture.  Combined with representation from the Pyramids (and Bill's sick shrine income), this was the basis of my economy.  At some point if there was time I would add Wall Street to Bill's shrine income for maximum effect, but that would have to come after building the remaining cathedrals and pumping non-stop military.  I guess Wall Street, then, would come when my economy crashed under the weight of all the unit costs in an effort to keep the culture slider higher for longer.  In any case, Bill is a great second city and its location was a huge advantage against Adrien early in the game as it sealed our border.  Between my playing Hatty (SPI/CRE) and having Bill as a holy city on the border, Adrien didn't try to cram any cities in against me on this border and I think we both gained from the peaceful border over time.  This will contrast with Donovan in the west....




A close up view of Bill, with the AP and Jewish shrine.  Oh, not pictured is another major piece, the Great Wall, which saved untold numbers of hammers in the early game on unit defense.  I haven't read 2metraninja's thread yet but I know he had barb trouble in the early game.  If the Great Wall being on his southern border contributed at all to that, well, that's a net win for me.  I have a feeling DZ's slower than expected growth into all his land was due in part to barbarian issues, and me not dealing with any of them probably didn't help him much.  Yay!




Next up is poor Bob, city #3.  This city was the ultimate helper city, giving all to the empire and never getting the infrastructure it needed for itself.  For the longest time its inventory consisted of granary, barracks, and forge, building constant streams of struts (units in KSP parlance) for defense wherever needed.  Bob was due to shrink when Jebediah would eventually take those three towns back, but we never got to that point.  Oh, and while shrinking?  That's right, Bob was going to starve for the empire producing artists.  Thanks Bob!




Valentina was always a production poor city, but did a solid job producing great people.  Earlier in the game Valentina produced the great prophet that was used to build the Jewish shrine in Bill.  Here she is three turns away from allowing my second GA (as long as I missed the 22% chance on the great merchant).  In the event that Valentina got the low odds artist, that would be saved and I'd take a shot at the golden age from another one of the mixed pool cities coming due soon, like Jebediah.




Wernher was another consummate helper city that I never allowed to grow to full potential.  With reasonably good production in the early game, Wernher built a lot of struts, particularly of the horse archer and crossbow varieties.




Gene, on the other hand, was the military production powerhouse.  In the early game Gene was an economy city but by the midgame when caste workshops became strong the villages and hamlets had to go.  Part of the problem was geography, as I had to create long irrigation chains to grow the western half of the empire.  There are no water sources anywhere from that lake SW of Gene all the way up to the old Aztec capital region, so I made a long farm chain that at one point went through Gene.  That was helpful for getting Gene up to size, but once the Heroic Epic finished the farms were workshopped over in favor of maximum struts production.  During the Aztec war Gene produced a lot of HAs, crossbows, and catapults.  Since then, it's been on knight duty almost exclusively, other than stopping for necessary bits of infrastructure, including the cathedral to push against Donovan's annoying border plant city.  More on that in a bit.




Dinkelstein was all you could ask of a Moai city with 15 water tiles, including two seafood.  The land tiles included gems and copper, not bad.  This city would have been my first alternate culture city, obviously capable of producing whatever it needed but seriously vulnerable to being razed by any of a number of seafaring players interested in not letting me win.




Mortimer was another helper city.  It grew two of Jebediah's cottages for a long time and producted a lot of struts (catapult variety).  It doesn't look as nice now as it recently gave up its food to a new filler city, but Mortimer was an important border city and launching point for the Aztec campaign.




Linus was a nice island grab on the border with Adrien.  As shown here it's an even better city, as it recently grabbed Adrien's wheat tile to increase its food output.  At some point I probably would have increased the production here by workshopping the remaining three land tiles, given the new food surplus, the better to build struts with.  There's also room to cram a city 1W of the hill mine, but Adrien isn't an AI and as good as our relations were, he probably wouldn't have liked that too much.  There was another late game filler I could have settled north of Bill that would have been profitable (I mean, with the monk economy everything is profitable), but I refrained from that too, in the name of good relations.  If this game had gone on another 20+ turns, though, I'd have been curious to see how peaceful this border would remain as all of Adrien's western cities started losing lots of land.  He may have taken exception to that. lol




Speaking of taking exception, here's Walt.  I settled it in a compromise location; I wanted to settle it 1N on the hill in a more defensible location, but Donovan crammed in a really bad and unnecessary city 3N1W of where I ended up putting Walt.  At the time I was looking to settle Walt Donovan still had a ton of land available to setting from his conquest of Dark Savant, so surely there were more profitable sites available elsewhere.  As it happened, though, DZ crammed his city on the border, I responded by planting Walt as close to the border as I could, and DZ and I entered a cultural war for supremacy that he was doomed to lose from the start, as his one city competed with both Walt and Gene for this area.  It took a lot longer to overwhelm the border with culture than I expected, despite me running artist specialists here and in Gene, so I have to assume DZ spent a lot of hammers on culture buildings that probably could have been better spent on almost anything else if he had only settled the border more equitably with me. In the end it didn't really matter as I won the tiles in conflict and we never got into a hot war.  I have to wonder, though, how DZ's game might have been different if he hadn't had to invest so much military in guarding a dangerous close border with me when it wasn't necessary.  Given his huge size he should have had the output to conquer Joey at some point but he never got around to it I guess.  Also, while on DZ, I know he never built the Buddhist shrine, which is a missed opportunity, but to my knowledge he never had a golden age.  I'm not sure what went wrong there, but that seems like a huge oversight in his planning.  I guess I'll find out when I read his thread.




Gus was a solid island city. Like Linus (settled on silks), Gus was a resource grab (settled on sugar) on the border with DZ.  Gus was a slow grower despite its dual seafood because it stalled growth for a long time to produce the great person that spawned the first and only golden age.  Gus built a fair amount of struts for the Aztec war, as well.




Dawton was an unfortunate city that had to settle on dry wheat to grab an otherwise unreachable fish.  Thanks map team! :P  Dawton recently produced a great merchant, which when paired with the (hopefully) non-merchant coming soon from Valentina would create the second Kerbal golden age.  Other than that, this is a fairly unremarkable city.




Eumon, on the other hand, is a great production city.  As currently configured it is still set for growth and given the attempted culture victory this city would be running a lot of artist specialists in the future.  In the meantime, though, Eumon was a solid unit producer and held the border with Adrien well in this area.  It was also, along with Mortimer, one of the launch points of the Aztec invasion.




Mun is the former Aztec city of Teotihuacan, 2MN's southernmost city.  As currently configured it doesn't look like a good choice for the National Epic, but it can borrow two food tiles (cows and corn) from neighboring cities to allow massive GPP generation.  At the moment it is waiting for great people to come out in Jebediah and I think one other city before I shift it to heavy GPP duty.  The thought is that I want those to come out before Mun kicks into gear, because otherwise the others may not come out at all given the rate possible here.




Jool is the former Aztec city of Tlaxcala.  2MN unhelpfully chopped the forest from under the deer during his epic defense, but he can't be blamed for that at all.  As configured the city is growing rapidly and would be set up to run many artists for GPP generation.  Also, crushing the stupid city Donovan crammed 3W1N of Jool would be an added bonus.  Why does he do that???  Especially against the player already holding the Sistine Chapel.... smoke Anyway, like almost all of the former Aztec cities, Jool was slow to integrate since only ONE of the eight cities I captured retained their granaries.  As I need caste/rep at the time, whipping in new granaries wasn't a viable option so it took forever for these cities to build the granaries and begin growing at reasonable rates.  Obviously 2MN didn't leave any forests at all to accelerate granary rebuilds, so it was a slow process.  Helpfully, Jool is a Buddhist city, as that is now being spread as quickly as possible.




Minmus was originally the Aztec city Malinalco.  At the time of the conquest it was crushed by DZ's culture from the city 4W1N, but over time thanks to Sistine artists that was sorted out.  Minmus became the Christian holy city, contributing another religion for the future culture win attempt.  Other than that, just another growing, food configured city ready to run artists for GPPs. At some point I would probably overwhelm the culture of DZ's city and steal his banana tile, which would be nice.   alright  Additionally, as shown here it is building the Forbidden Palace to get costs more under control in the former Aztec north.




Kerbin, formerly 2MN's capital Tenochtitlan, and the planned culture city #3.  This one was a tough call but it has more developed cottages than any other city in the empire, excluding Jebediah and Bill, so on that basis it seemed reasonable to try here for CV#3.  With that said, there's certainly risk in that it's the closest of the three cities to likely enemy territory, as Mack would have only to sweep through Mr. Cairo and the end of Adrien's empire to get here.  But when crammed with a few hundred units, maybe it would have held. lol  In addition to the complement of five cathedrals, Kerbin was going to receive the Hermitage as well as it would need the most work in culture generation, since Jebediah and Bill have head starts.




Eve started as 2MN's Tlatelolco, a crammed capital helper city.  Now it's a crammed Kerbal helper city, responsible for building the required monk infrastructure and then building struts until its death.  Other than being my only land border with Mr. Cairo, there's nothing remarkable here.




Duna was the Aztec city Xochicalco, grabbed during the mop up phase after the fate of the Aztecs was sealed at Tenochtitlan.  At the moment it is a bit lacking, as Donovan's capture of the former Aztec city to the west retained the seafood (for now...), but it helpfully added Confucianism to the empire, which it is now spreading around.




Moho is a little space filler at the end of the world, formerly Tamuin in happier Aztec days.  As it is in the extreme north and coastal, this city is imminently indefensible from naval invasion, if Mack chose to do so, and its investment has been lacking as a result.  For a while it ran rep scientists to help research, so thanks for that.  This city is too small to generate a great artist so there's no concern about pool pollution here.




Dres is the former barbarian/Aztec city of Sangian, and when grown this one will be a solid producer of struts and religious commodities.  It was also the last Aztec city I captured.  As I had no naval presence and, at the time, no production capacity on the northern coast it was left to DZ to finish off 2MN by capturing the island city to the west.  As a result, DZ has completed the conquest of more civs in this game than Mackoti has, and that includes not taking the chance to finish off Elkad!  pimp




Bobak is a great little filler city that I should have settled sooner, but for the longest time neither Jebediah nor Bill could afford to share food with a kid brother filler helper city, so it went unsettled.  But now, it does the best filler cities can do, sporting a temple, monastery, and religious commodity construction to go along with the occasional struts.




Kirrim is a good filler city that became possible to settle once 2MN was eliminated, but given worker constraints it went unsettled a while as I hacked through tons of jungle elsewhere.  Once I got my booster (worker) supply in hand, though, Kirrim was created to occupy some nice, green land.  Focus here is straightening out the border with DZ and being available for religious commodity and struts creation.




Felipe is probably the most filler city that ever fillered.  It added only three new workable tiles to the empire, but it comes with a free specialist (Mercantilism!), low maintenance (borders the capital), and will soon have a temple and monastery.  Obviously that justifies a 100 hammer investment.




Last and currently least is Eeloo, the last filler site in the waning jungle band that previously separated Aztec from KSP.  Shown here it has taken Mortimer's deer to bootstrap.  Originally I had planned to leave the jungles and forests for forest preserves in an eventual national park city, but no way, the tech is just too far out to justify it.  So the plan was to chop the jungles and lumbermill the forests, and cram in the typical religious builds for maximum profit.




This wraps up the tour of KSP cities.  To be continued.

Played: Pitboss 18 - Kublai Khan of Germany Somalia | Pitboss 11 - De Gaulle of Byzantium | Pitboss 8 - Churchill of Portugal | PB7 - Mao of Native America | PBEM29 Greens - Mao of Babylon
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What units was you planning for deffence? For me was ahrd i didnt know were your cities were, spies were on the way.
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Ye, and did you Xenu estimate your potential victory date? (and thanks for providing the password!)  lol
Finished:
PBEM 45G, PB 13, PB 18, PB 38 & PB 49

Top 3 favorite turns: 
#1, #2, #3
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