[PB37 SPOILER] Coeurva, Bacchus -- Cyrus of Carthage

[Bacchus]

I also meant that we give the cash, and ask for gpt back, giving 20 cash for 2 gpt is too much of an obvious gift, might look pleading, 18 for 2 is just on the favourable side for the borrower.

I think offering credit rather than asking for it sends a much better message, it's also a defacto guarantee of nonagression for 10 turns. Not that the sums in question are meaningful.

[Bacchus]

Oh, and dtays naming theme, to come back some, is Erfworld. I smiled a bit, he has dwagons.

[Coeurva]

I mixed up east and west again at the start of my post. I meant the south-eastern sea, because Yuri has no cities on that coast at all IIRC. The south-western he is much more properly present in.

(riffles frantically through production notes marked "THE SPIRIT OF REALMS BEYOND") No... no! The one with the one-liners isn't supposed to be the one who confuses the cardinal directions! Back to square one. Requesting a reload.

Serious comment: That means Lifeblood is somewhat more free to choose between lighthouse and research, depending on what's needed. Although given your suggestion of building Moai + HE somewhere (Whitehall? Eastern Ruins?), which I agree with, we'll need to settle stone at some point anyway. It also gives Sicil the opportunity to build a unit -- especially 2t-ing an archer if we can afford to slot in Archery.

The Vacant Sea will be somewhat difficult to settle, though, since we still lack cities on that shore, but must also be careful with Currency timing. I think we can put Vermin's settler on Eastern Ruins as X11 once it can drop research building, and Rhapsody's for Northwestern Island as X10.

We really need codenames for these city sites, the X-es are too prone to fluctuating because they indicate order.

I think offering credit rather than asking for it sends a much better message, it's also a defacto guarantee of nonagression for 10 turns.

Iirc that only applies to deals with the AI, and human players aren't peace-locked by trade deals.

@chumchu: Thanks! Yeah, I think I was overestimating our ability to force Yuri's stacks to stay inside his cities or alpha-strike him; trebs won't be as effective in the field. To say nothing of Savant if he gets aggressive. While I think having any siege is a better deterrent than having none, Machinery will probably indeed not be that useful to research for its other effects, especially since many of our hills are already mined (discouraging windmills when worker labour is still sparse) and as you've said, the follow-up techs will probably be too expensive for us still. Crossbows would probably lock down Yuri, though.

And while researching Maths isn't that useful to us, Calendar will be (post-IW).

[Bacchus]

Iirc that only applies to deals with the AI, and human players aren't peace-locked by trade deals.

I meant if we give cash and ask for gpt back, it's a pretty solid sign we won't be attacking until said gpt runs out.

[chumchu]

Crossbows are good but not obviously superior to Numidians or Swords as an attacking force. Swords are just better against cities against anything but axes but they still do ok against those. Against mass axes you can use to Numidians. Numidians also have the mobility to threaten multiple cities and ofc flanks catapults. Cats, Swords and Numids should do fine against any thing you can face from Yuri as I do not see any Elephants.

Getting Crossbows mainly seems like defensive or choking move rather than a conquering move. If you build enough units you may get him to stay in his cities so that you can use trebs but as it is more expensive and less generally useful going to machinery before construction first it seems unrealistic. Better to get either IW and/or HBR and then construction for a military build up. You will surely want machinery a bit further ahead though but that is a future concern with your current research rate.

[Coeurva]

By "lock down", I meant that Yuri can't attack into xbows (whether inside our city, or as stack defenders/garrisons during conquest) with anything he'll tech in the near future (he's just getting started on Writing), excluding slamming siege into them, which any unit is prone to while on the offensive (maybe not 2-movers on a bad road network). NumCav are better on the offense, yeah, although IW has an advantage over HBR because it unlocks at least a gems resource, and will be needed for the copious banana plantations (at least to remove jungle in preparation for Calendar), whereas CR1 swords really only lack mobility (but that is quite important), as long as our stacks are covered with enough units that draw top defender vs. axes before them.

There's ivory in the jungle south-east of every player's start, but if we will have a hard time reaching Construction + HBR, then so will Yuri all the more.

[chumchu]

Okay. Even more reason to get construction then as elephants can defend your stacks as well.

[Coeurva]

RtR Numidian Cavalry can get Shock-promoted out of the gate without requiring both barracks and stables, though, which I think makes them the more efficient stack defenders, along with their ability to pillage while moving along with a slow stack. Elephants require HBR anyway; and any city near the ivory will be rather weak in itself.

That said, catapults are enough of an argument in favour of Construction already. The colosseum might actually be worth considering in a select few cities as well.

[chumchu]

Elephants does not seems necessary against Yuri. But against a stronger opponent mixing in an elephant or two in each stack makes you much better protected against mounted attacks and slightly better against x-bows, catapult and other less common stuff.

[Bacchus]

Yeah, a stack of Agg swords covered by a single elephant can be pretty annoying to deal with. Fortunately, the elephants still should come up first defenders against cats, and any stack will be softened by cats before being cleared by Numids, so we should still be good.

Tech thoughts:

MC -- Needed for triremes. Forges aren't great, we get far better returns on Settlers in terms of expanding production. Now that we know there is so much overseas land to settle, I think triremes drop in priority. We have nothing to gain by butting heads with Savant, and he should realize that too.

IW -- Needed for swords and jungle clearance. But islands apparently aren't particularly jungled, and we can always settle mainland later. We also aren't likely to be carrying out expansive operations just yet. Could be used for fun amphibious raiding, but again, for now our galleys will be busy ferrying Settlers.

Aesthetics -- on the way to Literature, and maybe for Statue of Zeus. The latter is nice.

CoL -- I think this could be good for religion, as Theocracy is very useful for CHM, and for boats, the missionary also guarantees that we will get a spread in a crucial place. Courthouses are not bad, our sizeable capital is already ready for one, and will become ever more so with new settles. I also like to establish an espionage lead. Also OrgRel bonus is applicable to boat construction. Is monotheism taken? Also on the way to Civil Service.

HBR -- great for defense, will let us sleep much easier at night, will dissuade any attacks of opportunity from Savant by its mere presence.

Maths -- on the way to calendar (kinda useless?) and construction (kinda useful, but later?). Hanging Gardens are looking decent, if we can settle stone. Also on the way to Civil Service, which is nice. Allows us to bulb Philosophy instead of building an Academy for a religion, Pacifism and a headstart on Liberalism.

I think I prefer CoL -> Mysticism -> Meditation -> HBR -> Polytheism -> Aesthetics -> Literature -> Maths -> CS -> IW -> (MC -> Machinery) or Music or Paper.

We kinda need religion to fight the Stele in Fountain Head, and a Monastery in the capital would give a nice yield, especially if we courthouse up a little. If we can settle gold and score Paya, we will be in a really strong position.