SPOILERS : Twinkletoes' Mystery Thread - PBEM7

[Whosit]

Well, if that is your plan of action, I'll try to help you do that as efficiently as possible, but you had better commit to it, because you can't do this half-way!

Mining > Bronze Working are the techs you need next, for hammers and chops. I guess your Worker will build Cottages until then. I still would recommend Hunting > Animal Husbandry next, but that's not the issue here, heh.

But, yeah, beeline the south, scout out the region so you know what's there, and try to figure out how far it is to India's capital.

Work the Corn, though, to keep up your growth rate! Working the Ivory may get you a faster Warrior now, but if you work the Corn, you'll quickly grow a new citizen to work that Ivory, while continuing to grow quickly. Then you can either work the cottages you're building for commerce, or work Forest tiles for an extra hammer (or even better: Forest hill).

It sounds like .... Hmm. 2 Warriors in 5 turns, so four in 10. Again, if you make sure to keep your growth rate up, this might speed up as you add citizens. Can probably skip out on the Granary for now, but as soon as you get BW, better chop a forest into a Granary or something.

Distance will be a factor. India knows more than you do right now, which isn't good. If you can get them to reveal about how far away you are (in the context of asking about their planned city), that might help. If your Warriors have to trek a long distance away, even if India went Settler first, they'll have much more time to prepare defenses.

Edit: Also, growth! I cannot stop emphasizing this. Work the Corn! (Well, certainly once it's improved, but do it ASAP, anyway.)

[Twinkletoes89]

Well, if that is your plan of action, I'll try to help you do that as efficiently as possible, but you had better commit to it, because you can't do this half-way!

Mining > Bronze Working are the techs you need next, for hammers and chops. I guess your Worker will build Cottages until then. I still would recommend Hunting > Animal Husbandry next, but that's not the issue here, heh.

For a warrior rush, Tech choices don't matter so much. Hunting & AH works for early aggression if Horses are within capital's bfc.

Mining->BW may be better for choke purposes. If I know where his copper is, I can stop him using it.

Worker-wise - Its having the corn improved for another turn before cottaging.

But, yeah, beeline the south, scout out the region so you know what's there, and try to figure out how far it is to India's capital.

Work the Corn, though, to keep up your growth rate! Working the Ivory may get you a faster Warrior now, but if you work the Corn, you'll quickly grow a new citizen to work that Ivory, while continuing to grow quickly. Then you can either work the cottages you're building for commerce, or work Forest tiles for an extra hammer (or even better: Forest hill).

I'm using the Ivory tile as it is 2f/2h as opposed to the (currently) unimproved 3f/1c Corn tile. 1 extra food is not worth the loss of two extra hammers right now when a warrior rush is needed. Once the corn is improved I should be able to work it for one turn to get growth and then work both that and the ivory.

It sounds like .... Hmm. 2 Warriors in 5 turns, so four in 10. Again, if you make sure to keep your growth rate up, this might speed up as you add citizens. Can probably skip out on the Granary for now, but as soon as you get BW, better chop a forest into a Granary or something.

Distance will be a factor. India knows more than you do right now, which isn't good. If you can get them to reveal about how far away you are (in the context of asking about their planned city), that might help. If your Warriors have to trek a long distance away, even if India went Settler first, they'll have much more time to prepare defenses.

Edit: Also, growth! I cannot stop emphasizing this. Work the Corn! (Well, certainly once it's improved, but do it ASAP, anyway.)

Granary wise, just using the city tile and ivory gets it out in about 5 turns so its not going to take too long to build.

In terms of distance, there are 10 tiles between my capital and Moogle's, and as everyone settled on the first turn, there should be the same amount of tiles between mine and Serdoa's. I would wager it is due south as Moogle's is exactly due north.

In terms of defenses, he will have settled on a plains hill as everyone did. That means assaulting will probably need a 3 to 1 force advantage at extreme minimum! More likely 4 to 1 to cover bad luck.

In terms of research, I know that he researched Agriculture first (as he told me) so he has Agri, Mining and Mysticism. Now I would wager he is going for either BW or Fishing next for extra food or slavery, chops and copper. Perhaps I can push him to invest in a religion or the Henge and make my odds slightly better?

Thoughts?

[Twinkletoes89]

Turn 10

As expected, Buddhism falls and my Combat 1 starting warrior (thanks again Krill) kills a lion to be one short of a second promotion!

In home news, Corn improved and worked immediately to grow the city to size 2 at the end of the turn. Warrior 2 is heading towards the contested city site to see how defendable it is/how much room for compromise there is. Warrior 3 due in 2 turns.

In Demographical news, I am last in GNP and 1st in Soldier count.

[Twinkletoes89]

Well after chats with my cherished team members, I have hereby decided to abandon Operation Warrior Rush.

The reason for this change is both the risk factor of the Warrior Rush, and that I discovered (to my joy), that I can churn out a Settler in 7 turns. I have decided to take land as quickly as possible on this cramped map and try and work with Serdoa by conceding his planned city site. Talking with Whosit, I have drawn up these two dotmaps to try and reduce the amount of wasted tiles caused by my previous two dotmaps.

In case either of my esteemed colleagues can think of another - here is my (now Blue Marble boosted) template map.



[SIZE="4"]The Dotmaps[/SIZE]

[SIZE="2"]Dotmap One[/SIZE]



[SIZE="2"]Dotmap Two[/SIZE]

[Whosit]

OK, here's my idea:



If Cyan wouldn't be bumping up against the Mayan Capital, 1-N would be ideal, defensively. Still pretty far north, though, but if you can get a couple of escorts for the Settler....

Pretty cramped, but I think it has to be. Maybe Sailing should be picked up to see what's out there.

Cyan: Hybrid

Red: Commerce/GP

Magenta: Filler Commerce

Green: Commerce

Orange: Production

Not perfect, but just a thought. Overlap won't matter much until later in the game when cities can grow very large.

[Twinkletoes89]

Also to go with the 'Get along with Serdoa' plan, this is what I sent him to keep in touch and sound him out over an initial proposal for allowing him to take the city he wants:

Dear Serdoa,

After speaking with my team members, I am prepared to actively consider your proposal to plant your city which will take the corn tile to my south west. I have a Warrior now scouting the area to gain full intelligence of the land and then I can give a concrete proposal. This is what my initial proposal is:

I cede your proposed city site. In return I request:

1) A NAP of at least 50 turns
2) A guarantee that you will not chase the Stonehenge Wonder
3) You cannot settle again in the land between our two nations until I have settled one city in that area.

I have given this initial proposal so that you can consider it and see if it is something you can agree to.

Yours respectfully,

Twinkletoes

[Whosit]

Of the two dot maps you made, the top one looks much better, since I think that Yellow Dot needs access to Corn if it is to have any hope of working the low-food tiles it has.

Hope you get a good response from your proposal.

How do you plan on dealing with your neighbors in the near- and long-term future?

Also, I wonder if the others got a free Combat I Warrior to start with....

[Twinkletoes89]

i agree that the top one is better - I just thought it would be better to have an alternative for comparison if nothing else. I would imagine that the bottom one may be more defensive - with three cities close together on the Mayan front.

In terms of neighbours - this is my plan:

Serdoa - He found me so He knows about the land between us. In the short-term I need to work with him to gain a fair land share, given that he is Imperialistic so he can likely take land with settlers quicker than I can. He seems to be a pretty decent guy, interested in fair exchanges, so he could be a handy ally. On the other hand, his lack of UU may mean that I am better off attacking him later if aggression is needed

Moogle - For now I know where he is and I believe he doesn't know where I am, or the land we share. Short-term I want to pinch as much land as I can off him as possible. Starting with the universally agreed eastern fish city, and then hopefully closing off the north with another city taking the two other corn. Hopefully I can find copper nearby one of these two cities or my capital and then I can prepare better defence from Holkans if he decides to take issue with my settling plans.

Long-term I may be able to work with him, we shall see how much my potential landgrab can harm relations. Other than that there is a serious case of wait and see to be had.

[Twinkletoes89]

I think I have pulled off a pretty handy diplomatic coup with Serdoa right now.

I have managed to get him down to a 2 resource city and get a longer NAP without giving away anything. I still get Stonehenge and I get a riverside 2 food city with 2 plains hill for some production between us.

This is a dotmap of what we agreed - my city being green, and India's being purple (and badly drawn!)



I think that it is as good an agreement as I could have got away with really. I get a nice city that isn't crushed by a central, 3 food behemoth and have all the other stuff I want.

Here is the agreement in full:

Settling

We agree to settle the following cities in the land between us:

Twinkletoes settles his city 2W of the northernmost corn resource (grass river forest tile).
Serdoa settles his city 2E of the southernmost corn resource (grass river tile).

No more settling is allowed in the area between our civilisations without consent from both parties.

Non-Aggression Pact

A non-aggression pact is agreed between Twinkletoes and Serdoa from the current turn (15) until turn 75.

i) Espionage Points will be spent against each other until graph visibility is achieved. after that point no more points can be spent.
ii) No party can engage in any form of aggressive action against the other. This is defined as gifting units to another party who will use those units for war with the other party in this agreement. Alongside this, neither party can give right of passage to any units whose purpose is to wage war with the other party in this agreement.

Stonehenge

Serdoa agrees not to complete the Stonehenge wonder at any point. He may build it, but only with the intention of gaining gold when it is completed by another nation.

Signed,

Twinkletoes of the Ottomans

Serdoa of India

What do you guys think?

Settler due in two turns - going to send him to claim the double fish/corn site due north of my capital unless you guys have any objections?

[Twinkletoes89]

Settler finished and ready to set off next turn!

Moogle met my warrior a couple of turns ago and we exchanged pleasantries and then I notified him of my settling intention of fish site. What he returned with was very interesting!

Greetings Twinkletoes,

My scouting warrior has indeed found Serdoa's rather battered scout and exchanged greetings with him. He seems like an amiable fellow so far.

Regarding your settling plans, it may be that you have not yet completely scouted the area between our lands, but settling these strips of land are sensitive topics for every Civ from the communications I have had so far. The biggest problem is that it is only big enough to realistically allow for a single city to be settled. More cities than that would overlap with their respective capitals, and be in a constant culture war with one another. So while your proposed city may indeed be closer to your capital as it is to mine, it would also prevent me from expanding south. Without some kind of concession on your part, that simply would not do.

However, I have had an almost completely similar conversation with scooter, who is my northern neighbour, regarding the land that separates our borders, just as he has with Dazedroyalty who is found to his north. From what I gather, it appears as though everyone favors the land north of their capital to expand into while giving up the land to their south an appropriate price. If that is indeed the case, then all of us could always consider the option to forego said concessions. It would be a regrettable waste of time for everyone to send units or resources north, only to receive something similar from their southern neighbour.

In case that does not work out though, [SIZE="2"]scooter has yielded the area between our cities for a Worker and Workboat to be delivered to him in a reasonable amount of time. I would be looking for something along those lines to give up my claim on the southern land.[/SIZE]

Sincerely,
-Emperor SleepingMoogle I

For a worker and a workboat - I could gain ALL the land between our two civs! That to me sounds like a massive bargain.

I have also offered a NAP until Turn 80 with my offer to Moogle to try and guarantee no conflict while I settle.

If I get that, I can run pretty low military as I will have NAPs with both of my neighbours and a lot of nice land to settle! Add the Henge (if I can) to that and I like my chances of a good start!

What do you guys reckon?