[SPOILERS]A new adventure of Vanrober always guided by chumchu

[chumchu]

Whipping the last turn but not this can just be him doing the whip, overflow, whip, overflow cycle we did. Not replying fish/fish but asking for open borders? I can not read what mjmd is trying to say here:

- If he wish to scout our defenses before he attacks that seems too obvious. I would try to do it with more stealth.
- Maybe he wants to keep his foreign trade if he attacks Cairo? That could cut off most or all of his foreign trade as we own a full section of the ring coast to coast, maybe Cairo does that as well?
- Maybe he wants to keep a resource trade he has going?
- Is it a threat because no Fish/Fish? Open your borders or I attack you?
- Is he afraid that we will attack him in the back and want to post scout in our territory to see where our stack is? I would not be worried about us attacking him in his situation but it is different when you do not know as much about your opponent.

My guess is he wants open borders for economy but it might be for military reasons. I agree with you. We should not give him them unless we know why he wants them and can get something equal in return.

I do think we can get currency in 4-5 turns. 203+ 220 gold is enough for 4.7 turn of full speed research. With that we need to get 500 beakers including libraries and scientist. That number is then multiplied by 1.2 for having one of the pre-reqs(math) to give us 600, enough for currency. If there is known tech it becomes even faster. If you check the economy adviser, how much research do we get at 100% science? If it is 100 or more we should be fine for 5 turn. If it is 125 we can get it in 4.

[vanrober]

Whipping the last turn but not this can just be him doing the whip, overflow, whip, overflow cycle we did. Not replying fish/fish but asking for open borders? I can not read what mjmd is trying to say here:

- If he wish to scout our defenses before he attacks that seems too obvious. I would try to do it with more stealth.
- Maybe he wants to keep his foreign trade if he attacks Cairo? That could cut off most or all of his foreign trade as we own a full section of the ring coast to coast, maybe Cairo does that as well?
- Maybe he wants to keep a resource trade he has going?
- Is it a threat because no Fish/Fish? Open your borders or I attack you?
- Is he afraid that we will attack him in the back and want to post scout in our territory to see where our stack is? I would not be worried about us attacking him in his situation but it is different when you do not know as much about your opponent.

My guess is he wants open borders for economy but it might be for military reasons. I  agree with you. We should not give him them unless we know why he wants them and can get something equal in return.

I do think we can get currency in 4-5 turns. 203+ 220 gold is enough for 4.7 turn of full speed research. With that we need to get 500 beakers including libraries and scientist. That number is then multiplied by 1.2 for having one of the pre-reqs(math) to give us 600, enough for currency. If there is known tech it becomes even faster. If you check the economy adviser, how much research do we get at 100% science? If it is 100 or more we should be fine for 5 turn. If it is 125 we can get it in 4.

Thanks for that info, i didnt think there woiuld be so many possibilities. 

The only problem is that last turn we lost 36 gold at 50% to get maths, so we have 175g plus the 220 of mids, thats why i think we are a bit down of gold, i think it would be better to get some gold now and burn it when we got 2 or 3 neighbours giving us beakers on it.

I would go in to get those screenshots but ruff didnt play and im not sure if we are reloading or what. I think it doesnt matter since he has just 2 units and a city so im pretty sure he cant or he doesnt need to change anything. But we will see

[vanrober]

here it is the economy screen. 4 turns to currency. WE have not slightly the gold needed, but as you said it almost work.

           

If you look at demos and graphs we are not the best on power now, mjmd got it for a ton, so its time to get worried? im not sure, he moved his units to a place he could threat lingon. So im moving 2 axes there next. In 2 turn we will lose the culture view of his 2 cities he stole us. ravena and the other one. Its sad but shit happens. Civac is putting all his EPs on us, somethign i dont understand since we are not neighbours and we are not doing that great. I think that would b better on noble or mjmd. So that is forcing us to put all eps on him.

[vanrober]

Turn 96

On game Amica and I had a little chat, he told me he liked our naming theme but what were arbutus mean. He didnt know the fruit, i told him to search the statue that has that name on it and he did. We also talked a bit about PB54 and PB58 (just told i liked his thread) and just saying we both had some salty moments on this game. I really enjoyed the chat. And now im willing to end the game to see his thread xD.

So lets get into the game hehehe.
Ive been counting about currency and there is already 1 person who knows that tech. It has to be either noble or amica i think. Probably noble since he got that huge spike on the gnp graph.

So we probably will be able to get the tech.

First of all, the galley on Quince. I think it has to be whiped next turn. 2 reasons, first one is that mjmd will see that we are whiping and can think is defense. And second is that it would make possible the capture of Ruff. So the only 2 things i see against are the following:
-We wont get any OF into the Granary.
-It will be risky to tempt ruff to atack us with just a 68% of odd on wining (if i remember well). If we lose he will get a promotiona nd then we will need 2 galleys. Is it worth that risk?

A pic so you can think better of the micro. 

   

I choped Lemon and it was so sad to put just 30 hammers on axes, so i changed again to get 45h into the GW. Next forest might go for axes. Right now we have 1 axe on Pome and 2 HA, on next turn we will have 2 HA more and 3 Axes. on 2 turns we will have another axe coming from Ruff's land. If we add some axes from lingon and some more from either Lemon or pome or the capitol... we might be kind of safe? Im not sure how many units do we need. And not sure if its worth to whip more our cities, we dont even know where he is going to atack either way. Also geoestrategically is really hard to defend Lemon and Lingon with that mountain in the middleIt takes so maky turns for us and he can fork both easy. Not sure if we should road better anyhow.

So we are starting TGLH now and we are choping 4 forest in 5 turns so it would be done in 7-8 turns if i counted kind of decent. I thought to double whip an axe so we get defense and the OF go into the wonder too. We might even be able to double whip 2 units to get twice the OF.

The capitol is full of comerce right now and i might need to start working some mines to produce with some speed those defensive units. But again, im not sure where is the middpoint in between gold and hammers right now. Im not sure if we should or not start panic into full defense since we have so little info about mjmd and his plans. And i dont want to start whining as civac told me on PB54 (i have the proposed to stop whining nor ranting to make more readable my threads, stand me out if i cant please)

So basically nothing really changed, Sloe is working the sheep mine right now to get some hammers. 

       

Demos and graphs

       

[chumchu]

Took a look in to see the front situation and micro.

Mjmd whipped three times and his power is climbing. I'm worried. I would:
1) move the remaining horse archers in the north southward. The one with 8 xp should get sentry, that might come in very handy. Move the axes on the hill into quince.
2) Start an axe in lemon to whip if necessary next turn.
3) Move two axes from pomegranate south to the deer to reinforce raspberry and lingonberry. I would like to have 3 good defense units in all three front cities.

He has a lot of spears as garrisons which is smart by him. Few opportunities for our horse archers. Maybe Cumae can be hit but not much else.? However, that means fewer offensive units to attack with which is good. Also, noone has construction. If we can get enough axes in our cities we should be decently safe until he gets construction or get a really big stack concentrated. A problem for us is the length of the front. It is hard for us to reinforce threatened cities as they are so far apart. I would keep the horse archers in pomegranate as a mobile reserve and try to fortify all the axes in the front cities so that there is no weak spot for him to hit. With a shorter front we could have an axe reserve 1 south of pomegranate but with this length we would be looking at a reaction time of 2 turns to get to northern cities and 3 turns to get to raspberry which is too slow I feel. I would road between lingon, lemon and raspberry more when you have the time as that is important to be able to use our defenders advantage. For example the sugar northeast of raspberry.

Currency is going fine =)

Micro. I put signs in so you see what I mean.
I worked the corn in lemon, it is too good a tile and is needed in case if we whip the city and regrow. It still won't grow into unhappy. As I said, I suggest you start an axe there this turn

[vanrober]

Took a look in to see the front situation and micro.

Mjmd whipped three times and his power is climbing. I'm worried. I would:
1) move the remaining horse archers in the north southward. The one with 8 xp should get sentry, that might come in very handy. Move the axes on the hill into quince.
2) Start an axe in lemon to whip if necessary next turn.
3) Move two axes from pomegranate south to the deer to reinforce raspberry and lingonberry. I would like to have 3 good defense units in all three front cities.

He has a lot of spears as garrisons which is smart by him. Few opportunities for our horse archers. Maybe Cumae can be hit but not much else.? However, that means fewer offensive units to attack with which is good. Also, noone has construction. If we can get enough axes in our cities we should be decently safe until he gets construction or get a really big stack concentrated. A problem for us is the length of the front. It is hard for us to reinforce threatened cities as they are so far apart. I would keep the horse archers in pomegranate as a mobile reserve and try to fortify all the axes in the front cities so that there is no weak spot for him to hit. With a shorter front we could have an axe reserve 1 south of pomegranate but with this length we would be looking at a reaction time of 2 turns to get to northern cities and 3 turns to get to raspberry which is too slow I feel. I would road between lingon, lemon and raspberry more when you have the time as that is important to be able to use our defenders advantage. For example the sugar northeast of raspberry.

Currency is going fine =)

Micro. I put signs in so you see what I mean.
I worked the corn in lemon, it is too good a tile and is needed in case if we whip the city and regrow. It still won't  grow into unhappy. As I said, I suggest you start an axe there this turn

Thabks for your tips chumchu.

1- i wanted those units to hit ruff, thats why i had the doubts with the galley. I think they would arrive late into the war if it comes, anyway.
2- there id some hammers into an axe in Lemon we can already 1 whip it, i ll put all the hammers from now on there on axes, the great wall is almost completed either way.
3- i thought to move 1 to lemon 1 to lingon and 1 fortify there. If he act like he goes for lemon and then he changes into pome i would panic so hard. But i think its better to do what you said.
I plan to get 2 more axes whiped on Raspberry and OF into TGLH. 

I ll see the micro suggestions once i get home to play the turn. And i ll say what i finally do on the report. Unless i have doubts hehehe.

[chumchu]

I have thought a bit more about how and when to hit Ruff's island.

1) What do we get?
+ It speeds up the game
+ It may help with happiness in Ruff's old cities and if we get war weariness.
+ Another city. It is far away but has silver and good trade routes.
+ The faster we attack the less time he has to build defense.

2) Uncertains
- We do not know how big his last city is and if it is on a hill.
- We do not know how many units Ruff has and what types they are. Is he building mostly galleys or mostly archers?

3) Costs
- Going in blind, we can load ships in quince and then drop off units next turn. Risk of them being countered or stranded if he takes out the ships.
- Any units that are off doing that are out of position for any land conflict, so we would like to do it when we can spare them from other fronts.
- Not getting a granary first in Quince is bad micro.
- Not getting a dun in Sloe delays furs which hurts the entire country.

I would suggest that we try to scout his city first before deciding what to do. We have the advantage so we should not take unnecessary risks here. I would pasture the sheep and grow quince to 4 before whipping granary and overflowing into galley. Sloe has great food and a granary already if I remember correctly. That city is better to whip but I would get a dun there first to get first and more food. My idea is to get both cities up to speed fast and then we can get 2-4 galleys and do it more methodically.

[vanrober]

I dont agree with a couple of the sentences you just said.

2) Uncertains
- We do not know how big his last city is and if it is on a hill.
- We do not know how many units Ruff has and what types they are. Is he building mostly galleys or mostly archers?

Its not on a hill.

Its true we dont know how many units he has, but his city just has 1 hammer according to demos, so i dont expect much. He might be able to whip some but again, i dont think he has been able to whip much. We could still make an stimation out of demos/graphs. He is the last on power so we do know what is his power. Also we know most of his tech i think, so we would have a decent knowledge. Ill try to make a report about this one, but today is being really busy day.

I agree the rest. So now you have make me change my mind on it. I wanted to get that city online asap to get the second island asap with currency that would mean 36 more gold, which is just crazy stuff. And if it works that second silver would be even more. We just get 12 gpt at 0% so i thought that was inmidiatly need. But maybe going slower is better. Right now i have the feelings of PB54 in which i think my major mistake is taking it so slow until we lost the only advantage we had. I dont want that to happen here.

qe: Now i see that its not really 36 gold, if we get curency with the OB on Amica we should get 3 gold from his island city. So totally no need to hurry that.

[chumchu]

You have good arguments as well. We should know in a few turns what mjmd's intentions are.

- If he attacks us taking Ruff's island is low priority
- If he attacks someone else we can move the horse archers north and whip galleys. Hopefully we have had enough time by then to get the granary and dun.

[vanrober]

Turn 97

Thanks chumchu for the tips, i had some of those in mind. For example the chop of the worker of Lemon and the axe that was already started, also working the clams on Gooseberry, and the plan of changing to the deer on next turn once we get 5 pop in lingon. I just wanted to put 45h in tgw and thats why i stoped the axe. Maybe a mistake, idk. I feel pretty safe right now, i saw mjmd moving south some praets, he is leaving just 1 axe 1 spear on some cities with us, so having 3 axes on everycity seems just fine, and i think we are already got that with the next productions. Also since we are maxing some pop now whiping to grownd in case of need doesnt seem too bad. 
But I prefere to work a mine on Figs instead of the ivory, we are growing either way, we lose the OF of the food, but since we are not growing more its fine, and that hammer makes the axe 1 turn less, which i think it was better. If im losing something you thought make me know, im posting the screenshot so you see better.

   

Also im not sure if you mean to stop working the mine and work that cottage on the next turn, if it was that, it was a good tip i didnt think of until i saw it now.

   

On gooseberry im working on the dun to make a huge OF into the moai, im not sure if you had that in mind, what do you think?

   

I changed to granary on Quince and to a Dun on Sloe, on this last city im not sure if we should whip it fast to make some OF into the galley and also getting the pop 1 or 2 turns faster, but im not sure when to whip that, i mean, we can already this turn, which would give us a lot of priority on the pop but just 6h OF, is that worth? im not sure if maybe on next turn it woudl be better (i think it would)
I'll 2whip an axe on raspberry to make some OF into the GLH and the next turn another chop will come in, and in 2 turns the last chop will come in, so we will have a ton of OF, and then another 2 whip axe and probably will end, and if not it would be just 1 or 2 turns more, or again another 2whip to get it with OF. Its still a bit late for TGLH (but its true that has been a lot of wars) so maybe someone gets it faster but it will be a good amount of gold to get into the next tech... that im not sure which one it will b. If we are lucky and get this wonder the proyect end with Ruff will get some more advantages i believe.


Also thinking on the Ruff units, he has just 39K Power, he has 1 archer as most. (without making any calculation) I have no time to make the calculation right now (but it has almost the same power than when i made the calculations in the begining of the war on turn 30sh, and he has tech several tech since then, so...). He settled that city on turn 87 so it has been just 10 turns of it, it would have at most a granary there, and maybe now changed into some units, he didnt whip anything on that city yet, so i dont see how he could have much there. We just saw 1 galley, if i were him and i had more i would send it to stop us working the clams of Sloe, so im pretty sure he has just 1 galley out.

Demos and graphs, i also see that Cairo should be more of a target than us, since he has less power and much less production than mjmd and us, so he can just have much more units than cairo, and he shouldnt be able to have it than us, since as i said we can whip and produce the same as him adn with the walls on defense. So i ve calmed down a bit. Maybe i get a surprise on 2 turns hehehe. I hope we dont.

       

To make some more info about intenational news, Lazteuq got a new city. Gira whiped several cities. I hope he doesnt go for lazteuq because spliting him with Noble makes even stronger the best of the game right now. SO i hope he tries to get something of jowy (if thats the case, he will stop the copper trade jowy has with lazteuq which means noble gets easier his war... i dont like that) So please gira tell me those whips are not keshiks