[59] Miguelito and Rusten move stacks to berimbau rythms

[Miguelito]

I've also started to try and wrap my head around this start. Spreadsheet is linked in the second post, but nothing finished yet.

Yiou seem to have figured out hunting->AH pretty well, so I've been trying to make sense of BW first, but it is very awkward. I'm missing BW by 1 beaker on t24, when it would just be needed, and I don't see where to find the additional one as there are only 1c tiles (which I'm working).
Then with 1 worker the settler comes out well enough t30 (so later than yours), with a TR and the worker improving wheat straight away, but fishing is so late that the workboat gets finished way in advance (on settler overflow, but if you put that into the next worker the wb comes late). Also since BW is so late chopping isn't even useful, so my current variant has us actually farming the ivory .Unsatisfactory.
I guess we could put a chop and settler OF into the 2nd worker, then finish him in 2 turns. Then use him to chop the WB ?

With two workers I just end up burning through lots of forest for an even later settler.

I'll try improving upon it over the week, but you might have found the best variant already. Also did a quick test with fishing->BW, didn't feel great. Do you think something weird like that or hunting->BW (or BW->hunting->fishing) might be worth exploring?

[Rusten]

With a coastal fish early fishing is definitely worth exploring, but going just hunting without AH makes no sense to me on paper.
So far I'm very glad we elected not to go for IMP with these starting techs, we are very food-based and slavery is late.

Tech pace with Hunting-AH is also very promising, those 2 extra commerce do add up, and the intel on horses also has value. Sometimes the obvious path is the best one, but we have time to keep looking.

Also: 25. Joshybravo963 Asoka of America

[Rusten]

I should clarify that I rate our combo a little higher than Joshybravo963, it's just funny that he got both of the things I singled out as wanting to try.

Pacal of France feels better and better the more I play it out in my mind. It's a little annoying that we need so many different food techs which will slow down our granaries, but we are strong from start to finish here. You asked earlier for use of the musketeer and I'm not sure I answered, but the obvious main use is together with mounted units. Excellent stack protector for knights and mop-up unit if we're competitive into the industrial age. Extra movement is incredibly powerful!

[Miguelito]

Yeah, it seems like we have a pretty steep hill to climb right at the beginning, with promising land afterwards. And I guess that is the case for most of the civs here, so not something to worry too much about. Of course 2 of Mining/Fishing/Agri/(Hunting) would have made everything so much easier.

Intuitively AH first seems wrong to me: We spend our 200 first raw beakers to gain, in comparison to farming sheep and ivory:

• 2 commerce per turn (so 100 turns payback)
  
• 1 foodhammer
  
• 1 happy face
  
• 2 worker turns, which also makes yields kick in earlier
  

If the other prizes are the ability to work the fish, whipping, and chopping, that seems pretty meagre? If we reduce the investment to 72 beakers (hunting only), the haul is 1cpt, 1 happy face, 1 worker turn, hence why I asked.
It's just that BW first plays out so hella awkward. Feels like we're always just missing the goal by a few beakers or hammers, and can't do anything about it.
Well, you've tested this the furthest, and if you feel AH first works out best I will give a lot of credit to that .

My try at Fishing->BW produces this:


Wheat and sheep farms, PH mine, fish netted.
Seems pretty neat, but the dirty little secret is that it has no warrior . Is that even allowed? We can delay the settler for 2 turns for a warrior on t29 (after finishing the mine). That would also mean that we can revolt while moving the settler, which makes it less bad. The worker would spend 2 turns farming ivory or building another road though.

I freed access to the spreadsheet fwiw

[Rusten]

Discovered what I believe to be a fantastic Hunting-AH opener. Can provide details later, but will send you a save via PM.

[Rusten]

I agree that BW sounds better on paper, but as you say it plays out super awkwardly.

[Rusten]

I like the look of your fishing-bw attempt, but I have concerns about the late warrior (especially without hunting buff for scout) and I think it will fall far behind the hunting-AH opening I sent if we find either horses or another pasture food resource nearby. Right now AH is only for the sheep, but that can change quickly. It's not wasted beakers we need 100 turns to get back -- we still need AH early either way.

Not compared numbers though.

[Miguelito]

Yes, posting the fishing sim was in part to point out the awkward outcomes I see myself coming up with. Also yes, the hunting bonus on the scout should not be underestimated, point for you

I had a look at your save. We're headed for a 3rd city in the late 40s, but if the land fits it the 4th could be founded by t50 which seems pretty good. Just 2 warriors is a bit concerning, but with the high pop you came out with we're also flexible for emergencies, and maybe we'll even have a horse.

I'll play out the fishing->BW start (with a warrior before the settler) in the sandbox to see where we come out around that date, and maybe also BW first for all its awkwardness, for comparison. But yours will be tough to beat, surely.

[Rusten]

T45 or T46 3rd city unless we go really far. Would call that mid-40s rather than late 40s.

4th city could be out as early as T48 if we double chop the forest the workers are sitting on, but it's likely way better to have 1 worker follow the capital settler and the other on that hill putting a couple of turns into a mine and timing the chop into a granary T49 or whenever we've completed pottery (and then probably completing the mine after).

[Rusten]

Might've found an improvement on the Hunting-AH save I sent you.

If we go fishing before mining-bw instead of after, and start on a wb after the settler instead of the 2nd worker we'll get the fish hooked up T34 at the same time as we've grown to size 4, and can start on our 2nd worker*. It delays chops and slavery, so we can't do the cute work boat whip, but earlier fish will also make a difference. Needs closer examination and number comparison. On the surface I like it a lot.

I believe it's possible to finish BW end of turn 41 in that scenario if I pay closer attention to tiles and slider efficiency, in which case we can whip the settler for 2 pop on T43 (2nd worker before settler variation).

*Or settler -> whip worker