[Spoilers-PBEM14] Hannibal's Ottomans, Lewwyn and Luddite

[Lewwyn]

Quick update, found Wheat. Also Serdoa has seen my 2nd warrior and from his position can see the corner of my culture bleeding through the tile. I may have to reassure him a bit with some diplo...



Also, Scooter sent me a big legal pact agreement thing that i simply haven't had time to read yet. After I update PBEM 6 and 18 I'll go back and look at it. Post it in here.

[luddite]

Tell Scooter that the Ottoman people haven't discovered writing yet, so they have no use for written treaties!

[Lewwyn]

And at this rate we won't discover how to write for at least another couple thousand years

However we have agreed to a formal treaty Here are the relevant documents:

Lewwyn,

I know we kind of loosely agreed on intel sharing, and I thought I would take some time to try to put a deal in writing so that we both have the same understanding here. I've also done intel sharing deals before, so I have several ideas you might not have considered that we could use in such a deal. I'm going to write out a list of agreements, and we can agree to any of which we choose. I'm okay with all of these, however you are free to consider them each individually. Also, I'm very much open to suggestions on any ideas you have.

--------


1. we will enter into an agreement to share intel as best as we can and for the mutual benefit of each other. We recognize that occasionally one person will benefit more from this deal at some times, and we will do our best to accept that and to look for ways to return the favor as best as we can.

2. We will share our targets for own civs so as to not step on each other's toes. In other words - brief updates on tech/wonder plans so that we don't race each other to a wonder. We'll do our best to work out a deal if we both desire the same tech bonus/wonder/etc, and also be willing to concede it to the other player (for example: if the other player can get there quicker).

3. We will share map knowledge (in the form of explanation or screenshots) as best as we can so that we can both do a better job of planning accordingly.

4. We will make all efforts to split land as fairly as possible. This will be challenging given the awkward shape of the land and the disposal of Serdoa, so we will simply have to be willing to make concessions and look at things objectively. We will notify the other person if a city site is wanted in the other's direction.

5. We will get enough EP's on each other for demographics only, and then try to target other players. Ideally, we will target different players and share what we've learned.

6. We will keep each other updated on what we hear from other players in terms of diplomacy.

7. All info passing between us is confidential unless explicity stated otherwise.

8. In general, we work for our mutual benefit (at the expense of other players if necessary).

We can even expand this to things such as giving preference to each other in things such as resource trades. Really it's up to you. I think it makes a lot of sense to work together, especially given our geography, traits, and UUs. Hopefully this message gets things started so that we have a more specific idea of what we're aiming for rather than just a loose idea from a random chat we had one day.

Any thoughts? No rush if you need time to digest/think - it's early in the game so we certainly have time.

Thanks,
scooter

And my response:

Hey Scooter,

I'm glad to get this all legalled up. I have to say of the 5 civs, I was hoping to work with you because of the close era of our UUs. Sort of just makes sense that way. It makes the rush versus Serdoa a bit amusing given his early UU.

1) Agreed.
2) I also think this will be beneficial.
3) Yes. I didn't give you a map of my capital yet, next save that comes around I'll snap one for you.
4) I will agree to this as closely as possible. Given that I will be closer to Serdoa and need to sink more resources into the rush and containment I'll probably want more of that NE area. Given that, depending on how well we do, you can probably spread across the north, though, of course, we need to focus on blocking off Sandover and Gaspar first. And yes, I'll inform you of any cities planted in your direction.
5) Agreed and already done, I moved EP's off you two turns ago I believe.
6) Yes. No word from Serdoa BTW. And Sandover asked if I was putting a new city down soon. I told him probably near horses, which is an eventual target but hopefully he'll tell Serdoa.
7) Agreed.
8) Agreed. One of those CIV5 Pacts of Cooperation, no? :D

I don't have much else to add here. I will think about any amendments, but for now everything is satisfactory. I will say that point 4 will require a lot of future discussion too as it is tricky, but we can deal as we go as long as we understand that disagreements when we get closer to each other will be natural and should not threaten our relationship.

Also ran everything by Luddite and he's in agreement, thinks you'll be a good ally.

Lewwyn

I didn't add that Luddite thinks Scooter will be a good ally because we'll be better in long-term growth.

[Lewwyn]

Turn:



The lines may be confusing but figure that the green line is next turn moves and the red lines and text are 2 turns away. The one warrior will stay on the roaded forest and move onto the jungle via road with the settler. Hopefully Serdoa is curious about what is east and his warrior doesn't come west yet. My north warrior will begin moving back west next turn. He'll end up attempting to pillage that wheat in Serdoa's capital, but thats a bit away.

Also, Serdoa revolted into slavery.

I've also met Gaspar:

Lewwyn,

It appears my scouting unit Mortician made an exciting 2-for-1 combination contact with yours and Serdoa's units this turn. So - hi! I'm about to head for work, but since you get the game directly after me, I didn't want you think I was rude by not saying hello.

Anything interesting going on in Turkish lands? Have you misread any tea leaves yet? Are you totally convinced that scooter is the mason and Serdoa and Sandover are werewolves? Can I tell you I'm the baner?

...

Wrong game, my bad. Anyway - nice to meet you again, good luck and I'm sure we'll have plenty to talk about down the road.

Gaspar

I'll write a generic reply shortly.

[Lewwyn]

My quick reply:

Hey Gaspar,

Good to finally meet you. I couldn't figure out where you were for the longest time. Thought you were east of me for a while. Not much else to say atm. And yeah, I'm sure we'll have plenty to say later.

Gratz on Stonehenge by the by!

Lewwyn

I've been thinking about this rush and it does make me nervous. Serdoa as enough time to stick it to me if he figures it out. Plus I'm simply making gold right now. If this whole thing fails I'm 10 turns of tech behind everyone else, not to mention embroiled in a long stalemate. So, yeah, makes me nervous. The rewards, however, are worth the chance. If I take that city I can choke Serdoa in and then expand easily around him nearly doubling my expansion area.

High risk, high reward. I wonder if Serdoa is wary of ancient era wars.

Edit: One other thing... Gaspar still only has his capital city. Scooter is up to 3 cities. I'll hit 4 in 4 turns.

[Lewwyn]

Got a new message from Gaspar, and it seems my last message wasn't generic enough, or too generic?

Lewwyn,

Heh, I'm sure we will indeed. Already found your SevenSpirits this game? Will that make me TRD or Nakor, I wonder.

Enjoying some tea,
Gaspar

So he suspects I've already made my bed, which I have but I rather he didn't know that.

lol Gaspar,

I think you're forgetting one. Why couldn't you be Ruff? :D And no one could be my SevenSpirits; he's on his own level of partnership. After all he gave me that super pick in PBEM 18... Go scout, go!

What about yourself? Getting comfy with anyone? It's humorous to me that you're the last one I meet.

Lewwyn

I can neither confirm nor deny...

There's two angles here. First, he already suspects I am working with someone. Not an unreasonable assumption. Second, Scooter and I already suspect Gaspar and Sandover are working together. You hav eto figure that Serdoa is the lone wolf who's about to get put in his cage. From there its shaping up to be a battle between Sandover/Gaspar and Scooter/me.

I don't think there's anyway way I can convince Gaspar otherwise short of offering him an alliance. So I needled him slightly, and sent the question back at him. Maybe I'm playing this diplo too honestly and I should simply ask if he's looking for an alliance, maybe lead him on. But I feel like any opportunity for that was blown in the first exchange. It's better to play it cool...

Also, for those who don't know, I'm allied with Seven in PBEM 6. I just wiped TRD out. Seven has just about wiped Ruff out. And Nakor is between us waiting for the hammer to fall. By pointing out Ruff I'm suggesting I have an ally who will crush him or that he's just going to lose. The most relevant comparison is that before Seven decimated Ruff, Ruff was building the pyramids, great wall and stuff when he should have been building a military. (Gaspar built Stonehenge before a first settler).

[Lewwyn]

Annnnnnnnnd.... Gaspar understands my reference and somehow already is positive that Scooter and I have buddied up:

Lewwyn,

I suppose there's some logic there, but I'm far more likely to be eaten up Sandover than scooter, and the likelihood of you chumming up with Sandover is extraordinarily small. Still, I like it, I'm going to go with scooter = SS, Serdoa = TRD, Sandover = Nakor, me = Ruff and you = Lewwyn. I will say that if I had Agg/Chm Rome, someone would be seeing the ass end of praets long before I sat around waiting to get invaded. :D

In game news, I think my diplo with you has been better than with anyone else in this game. If that doesn't tell you what you need to know about my situation, I'm not sure what else does.

Shame we hadn't met earlier, you were my pre-game pick for most likely ally. In fairness, that's has as much to do with the fact were in a game full of psychopaths and sociopaths as anything to do with our personal relationship. You really couldn't have picked a curiouser group of personalities if you tried. I think I qualify as boring in this group. Should make for fun post-game reading, if nothing else.

Thoughts on the map?

Quaffing Earl Grey,
Gaspar

Well, Guess I'll just go friendly with it. You never know who may become an enemy and who may turn out to be an ally.

Gaspar,

You flatter me, and I'd say the game is still young. I wouldn't apply all the PBEM 6 diplo here because I think its going to be very different. I do agree that this game has a lot of personality! But at least that brings a sense of urgency. I'm loving that we're getting a turn a day.

And yeah, that surprises me that your diplo has been better with me than anyone else. Sandover has been very talkative with me... I think I have more diplo with him than anyone else. Though, you are the last to meet people, so that could be a factor. That leads into the map as well.

With this map, I'm apparently in a central position. My scouting absolutely sucks, but I still managed to meet most everyone in a timely matter. And probably more unnerving is I've got you, Serdoa, and Sandover hovering round my borders. Scooter's warrior was around a little while ago. For the longest time I thought I was southernmost on the map. Now it seems the map is like 2 bubbles as you've probably seen from your scouting. I'm guessing a custom pangaea. In any case its sort of like you and Serdoa are on opposite ends. You're just now meeting in the middle.

And yeah I'd be wary. If you are alone on the second bubble of the pangaea with Sandover, all he needs to do is take you out and he can expand through a whole section of the continent with a manageable choke. So... I guess you're either a target or an ally with him there. Up here in the north half it's more of a three-step tango if you will.

BTW you Scooter and Sandover are killing me in the posting department. And I have been active... I'm doing at least 2-3 posts per turn. You're all spammers with too many lurkers. -__-'

Lewwyn

I don't think I'm really giving anything away that he doesn't already know. I am curious about how its so clear that Scooter and I have buddied up. And worse, does Serdoa know? I'm sure he's caught wind by now... I don't know the rush may be a disaster waiting to happen. Serdoa might even have convinced Sandover to send a warrior into my territory forcing me to keep a unit at home, withdraw a troop whatever. These next ten turns will be hugely interesting.

[Lewwyn]

So I had this email from scooter yesterday (before Gaspar) and never got around to responding until now:

Lewwyn,

Once I got grips of where everyone was, you were my preference on who to work with for very similar reasons, so it seems we are thinking similarly here. Also - yes 4) will be difficult to work through completely perfectly. I think if we both approach it in an attempt to follow the agreement as close as possible, we'll be able to come to agreements... And even if we don't like it completely, we can temporarily shelve them and then violently settle any disagreements once everyone else is dead . Seriously though, I'm not too worried about that, as long as we both put fair and honest effort into it.

There is one detail about the map that I was slightly hesitant to tell you before you agreed to this, only because it's fairly valuable information and I'd like for it to not get out to everyone quite yet . Now that we've agreed on this, I'll share it with you. The short of it is this: this map is an Earth2 script. If you're not familiar with Earth2 - it's a script (not a static map) that produces continents roughly similar in shape to the earth, but with a lot of variance in things like resources, lakes, exact continent shape, peaks, etc. Basically on the macro level it looks like a funky-ish earth, but there's a lot of variance at the micro level. My suggestion is to just generate a few standard size Earth2 maps to see what I mean.

It makes a lot of sense actually if you think about it. I am in Europe, Sandover is in Egypt (ish), you are in the middle east, Serdoa is in NE Asia... Gaspar's the only oddball, being in south Africa. Don't ask how I figured it out - I spent *way* too much time on it - my lurkers probably thought I was insane. This is how I racked up so many posts when nothing was going on. I can explain more about how I figured it out if you're really curious, but the explanation is a bit long.

So hopefully this helps clear up in your mind what the map looks like. This means you've definitely got more land east of me - though I don't really have much west of me. This should show you how much of an advantage we'll have if we can get Gaspar/Sandover boxed into Africa and we get Eurasia.

As far as I know, no one else seems to know about this... Gaspar had a hint of it early on (he picked up on the geographic placement of our civs), but I see no real evidence of Sandover/Serdoa (certainly not Serdoa) knowing about it yet. Anyways, so that's the big piece of info that I hadn't shared yet, so... any questions?

scooter

Very interesting Earth2 would indicate the new world is out there no?

My response dealt mostly with informing him of my diplo with Gaspar:

Hey, sorry I didn't respond right away.

First off, yeah 4) we'll simply deal with. As for the map, yeah, I can see the map now and how it mimics the earth. I like that we are placed in areas that mimic RL civ placements, very cool. I don't really have any questions about that.

I'm a little worried about Gaspar he seems to have picked up a good deal of understanding about the diplo map. He sent me a short greeting, and I responded with a short greeting. And he promptly replied with a one liner:

"Heh, I'm sure we will indeed. Already found your SevenSpirits this game? Will that make me TRD or Nakor, I wonder. "

You know in PBEM 6 that Seven and I are allied and taking care of business. I wasn't sure if he was fishing for info or if he'd figured from my generic reply that I already had an ally and he was out of luck. I responded with a neither confirm or deny more of a joke about he was missing the possibility that he was Ruff. Anyway he says:

"I suppose there's some logic there, but I'm far more likely to be eaten up Sandover than scooter, and the likelihood of you chumming up with Sandover is extraordinarily small. Still, I like it, I'm going to go with scooter = SS, Serdoa = TRD, Sandover = Nakor, me = Ruff and you = Lewwyn. I will say that if I had Agg/Chm Rome, someone would be seeing the ass end of praets long before I sat around waiting to get invaded. :D"

Which is remarkably accurate. Doubly so because Nakor invaded Ruff as well as Seven. No idea exactly how he got there, but it worries me a bit on the Serdoa and Sandover front. The good thing is that it seems that Gaspar and Sandover are not as close as it seemed, or he's just trying to play me, the way I'm trying to play him about you and I.

Lewwyn

This game is becoming very diplo heavy. Probably good for practicing diplo skills. I think it also just has to do with the fact there are alot of talkers in this game.

/me looks at the other threads' postcounts

[Lewwyn]

Okay, turn again.

Not too much to report here. I turned the western warrior around and the eastern warrior is coming back towards the cities too. I whipped the settler in Eureka, and all the workers are roading. Only one thing could throw a monkey wrench here:



Sandover will move that warrior to the hill next turn. He'll see my settler in the city and no military. I want to build a monument in the city next turn. I will have to move the warrior that's NE of the city into Eureka for the turn so that Sandover will be less inclined to wardec attempt to choke/take the city. Then when he moves off the tile I can move the unit back north. I think I can get it into the pig city and upgrade it by turn 41 so that my plans won't be set back, but we'll see. It may end up on the hill south of the pig city and I'll upgrade it there and then have it run down the road and onto the pigs with the other axe on t42.

Gaspar still at 1 city. Sandover 2, Serdoa 2, Scooter 3.

[Lewwyn]

New turn. I'm a little pressed for time today IRL so I'll try to make this brief. FIrst diplo from Gaspar yesterday I still haven't responded:

Lewwyn,

Mostly I'm just fucking with you, to be honest. You should be used to that from me by now. Obviously I doubt the PBEM6 diplo will apply directly - if nothing else, I suspect this game will be a little bit more competitive, but one can always infer things from people's behaviors. Take that to mean what you will.

Sandover and I have chatted quite a bit, simply based on me meeting him at least 10 turns before anyone else - might have been more than that even. I really didn't do much scouting early game except around my capital. Just not entirely sure there's been a whole lot productive in those chats. He's a bit of cipher.

I actually think I have the map 90% figured out. Stonehenge centering the map helps quite a bit, even if my scouting has been a bit lax. I'm not going to divulge anything quite that significant since it were my hammers that built that stone circle, and I'm still waiting to see if you want to play in my sandbox, or if you've already made too many friends for little old me. I will tell you that you are indeed not in the center of the map, though. Serdoa and I are cardinal opposites though, that much you have precisely correct. I'd guess you know more than you're telling me as well, however.

My relations with Sandover are definitely going to be important to my game. We'll either have to work together or I'll have to take him out. Given our positions, I'm more of a threat to him than an opportunity - it makes a whole lot more sense for him to move east than south. He's not going to hit domination with just my land, but only I can create a second front for him. Should make me more of an asset to you and/or scooter, actually. You both should be courting me harder. I want flowers and chocolates.

I only have one dedlurker, as Bruindane vanished - I just talk too much. You're playing in more games than me now as well, so I have plenty of time to blah-blah-blah, especially since Nakor does the driving in PB4. No idea whats going on in scooter and Sandovers threads, but they're both more famous around here than us, so I imagine they have plenty more lurkers than we do. Bastards.

Anything else interesting going on? Have you gotten anything interesting out of Serdoa? We shared a very short conversation and that's been about it. Perhaps he's playing too many games now, but he hasn't seemed this quiet from lurking other games. Not to mention his lurker thread has exactly one post. Odd.

Gaspar

Makes me feel a little more at ease actually.


In the turn I made movements:



I'm a little worried about Serdoa's warriors. He has one in the south on in the north and one in his second city. I'm building the monument in Eureka and starting a warrior there next turn. Hopefully Sandover will wander off that hill and I can send that warrior north to be upgraded to an axe on turn 41 and still invade on turn 42. Over all the position is great, but tenuous. Things COULD go wrong.

I also whipped the settler in Keystone for 2 pop. It hurt a bit because the settler would have finished naturally in 3 turns, but I needed that settler for copper. It will make my game. On the plus side Keystone has 19 hammers next turn to build whatever. I'm thinking a 1turn warrior, but if I put it into a granary it will make the granary only a 1 pop whip. I'll think about it. I want to start a warrior and have it get to 9 hammers and then get copper and have it build as an axe instead...