[SPOILERS] - scooter's thread

[scooter]

I figured you'd take that as a compliment

After thinking about this more, I"m leaning towards just flat-out racing Dazed to the spot between us and trying to work something out with SleepingMoogle. Reason for that is only that I have scouted the land between myself and Dazed and haven't scouted south. I feel like I can beat him to the coastal spot, and then I can damage control from there.

The possibility is that I may try to talk to him and see what he'd want in exchange for that coastal spot. If he asks something reasonable (like a good spot to the west) I may just agree to that. If he doesn't, then I'll just take it on my own and deal with the fallout. Ideally in the scenario that he gets upset over that, I may try to closely befriend SleepingMoogle.

[scooter]

Alright so I was really stuck as to what to do about that spot, then some inspiration struck. Here's my sales pitch to Dazed:

Dazed,

Thanks! And yes I'll move my warrior away when the turn gets around to me again.

I get the feeling you're open to a discussion regarding cities but you aren't nuts about the idea I proposed. I guess I'm trying to look at it from your perspective, and if I was you I'd be trying to snag a coastal spot both north AND south of your capital. Here's the dilemma I'm facing right now - I *really* would like one of these 2-fish coastal spots, but there's likely no way I can get both north and south of my capital. Not only that, it's even more unlikely that I can get the spot to my south... SleepingMoogle has scouted that land and I haven't, so it would be awfully hard to get that spot.

Soooo... that means I'd really like that coastal spot between us. So here's the scenarios we could be facing:

1. We race there. One of us gets it, and sucks to be the other person.
2. I could give you claim on the spot if you had a good offer to make
3. You could give me that spot if I had a good offer to make

So I'm going to attempt to talk you into door #3 . I'd like to offer you two things in return for that coastal spot:

1. Favorable settling rights to another spot NOT on the coast. I'm not looking at the game currently, but basically I'd be willing to trade that spot for land concessions further west... If you see a spot that you like inland that you think may be borderline, I'd be open to a trade. You said there's another coast-line 7-8 tiles to the west, so I'd be open to giving you an additional port on that side of the island if that's why you'd like.

2. I'll send a Buddhist missionary for free.

Although it's not like I'm giving this up, I'd be willing to bet you can snag the same coastal spot to your north anyways. Alright so that was my sales pitch...your thoughts?

scooter

Alright that's my attempt. Really it's a good deal in his favor, maybe a little too good... But I think it's worth it. Really if he hasn't caught onto the Tilted Axis thing it might work out brilliantly - because my original theory was this was a strip of land in the middle which would imply the west coast has equal value... If he still buys that theory (I shared it with him) then this offer might carry a lot of weight. I think that spot is extremely valuable for me to get a second port because if I'm correct in my math, then over 2/3rds of the land in the game is only accessible by going off this east coast.

[scooter]

Lurkers - do you think I'm being too generous with that offer? Or is it the opposite - where he'd be nuts to accept it? Or about right? It seems like a good deal to me but I'm obviously a weeee bit biased here.

[scooter]

Okay - new turn in. Work boat finished at turn's end... So fish will be online next turn. If Dazed doesn't respond positively to my previous message (nothing yet), then I'll probably go Quecha next while growing to size 3, and then build a settler and go straight to the spot. If he agrees to my deal, then I'll probably go work boat next (bit of a risk with an empty capital) in order to get the best start on circumnavigation.

I'll post some pictures later if I can, though my internet connection is bad right now (hotel internet) so no promises. Anything in particular you want pictures of? Or any questions at all?

[scooter]

Got a response from Dazed:

Scooter,

Thanks for moving your quechua away next turn. Sorry for not getting back to you last night. I was at a youth group event I help lead all night and today was quite busy at work.

Regarding settling agreements, there area couple of thoughts I wanted to share. First, this is my first attempt to engage in settlement discussions in CIV so I am intentionally trying to take time and think about things thoroughly before agreeing to any proposal. Please don't take it as a negative sign if I do not immediately agree or if there is a delay in response.

Second, I do have a genuine desire to understand the map a bit more fully before finalizing an agreement. I have been operating under an assumption (one that it seems you've also had). That is, that I have a neighbor to my north and that we are all in some kind of line probably with a world wrap so that there is no top or bottom player. That said, we do not know this for sure so it does seem prudent explore a little more.

I fully understand your concern regarding your southern site. However, I am in the same situation as I have not scouted north of my capitol. If I concede the my southern site to you and then my northern neighbor also goes south, I will be left without either spot myself. Your proposal to offer a site on the west coast would be a lot stronger if I knew more about what is there. At the moment, I have visibility on 5 coastal tiles but none with resources.

I'm not trying to shut these negotiations down at all, but would like to ask how long you think we can wait for more map info to be revealed.

Also, I assume that you have been speaking to SleepingMoogle as well in order to keep your options open. I know I would in your situation. How have those discussions gone? I am still waiting to hear back from him after my initial greeting.

That's it for now!

Dazed

Okay, I'm racing him to the spot. I'll still allow him to accept the agreement, because that would mean I get the spot without the diplo hit, but I'm going to settle that spot. I am fairly confident I can beat him there, because:

1. I got my worker out first by a turn or two because I am expansive
2. He went worker-warrior, I went worker-work boat, so I'll have better tiles to complete the settler.

So unless he goes worker-warrior-settler, I can beat him. I know he went worker-warrior because I saw that second warrior coming out of the capital. So as long as he's not ALREADY building a settler, I'm fine. I'll be building the settler with better tiles anyways since he can't have a work boat yet.

This is unusual for me... Usually my thing is diplo - maintaining good relations with others... I'm typically willing to accept a short-term loss in terms of land/resources/etc in return for diplomatic good will. But not this time... Stakes are too high on this city spot. This means it's imperative that I work out good relations with SleepingMoogle. I think my next job will be to cut a deal with SleepingMoogle where I give up that 2-fish spot to my south (assuming it's there) in exchange for, say, a worker. Or something like that. Ideally I would push that along to a solid alliance to my south so I can easily deal with fallout from Dazed to my north.

Krill - I can't say enough about how brilliant this setup is. Making it so there's only one city's length between starts AND make it a great/important spot... Brilliant. Usually the first 30 turns are dull especially with no tech trading (so no jockeying for position), but you made this thing exciting starting with turn 10. Thanks

I think we're in for a wiiiiild ride

[scooter]

Note - I actually think I could easily befriend Dazed under different circumstances - it's too bad really. I enjoy talking with him and he seems like a genuinely nice guy. But unless he accepts my offer, I'm pretty sure we'll never be best buds in this game.

If he suddenly accepts my offer, well then things are changed somewhat. I'm going to craft a reply to him now.

[scooter]

Okay, here's what I sent:

Dazed,

Okay back to the game. I hope the way I worded my last email didn't make you think that I felt like you were totally shooting me down (if you follow that). I guess it went more like this. I wrote that first proposal in sort of a "if things went the way I want" mode. I didn't really put myself in your shoes, I just threw out there an idea that sounds great (to me) in theory but is bad in practice, because it's giving up something for nothing from your perspective. So my follow-up message was trying to make it so that it was a case of you giving up something for something if that makes sense.

Here's the catch. We're not THAT far from settler time. I mean it won't be in the next couple days obviously, but you know what I mean, it's not turn 3 anymore . Sure we can wait for more map info, but...not very long. At some point one (or both) of us will think to ourselves "forget it, I AM getting that spot." So while I don't want to rush you into a decision you are not prepared to make, I'd also like to nudge you just a bit only because time ticks quickly on quick speed . Okay I'll shoot straight - what is your interest level on my proposition? 1 being a "no way I'll accept" and 10 a "I accept".

I think you could grab the northern spot if you made a determined beeline for it (the warrior you just finished building is not that far from the area). I'd be open to an additional add-on to the deal to "sweeten" it a bit... If your northern neighbor steals it, I'd help you get it back. I'd do my best to gift you, say, an axeman or chariot to help you take it. That is, if we even HAVE copper/horses, which is NOT a guarantee with the wacky map Krill made for us!

Alright, sorry for the book I've written but I'll wrap it up now. As for SleepingMoogle, he's out of town this week so he's been quiet on the diplo front. I was hoping to send him a message in an attempt to "sell" the spot south of my capital in the same way that I'm offering to buy the one to my north if that makes sense. He's scouted it and I'm sure he wants it, so I'll see how that goes.

scooter

I don't think it was the best message I could have done, but it was good enough to hit send. I'll send a message to SleepingMoogle tomorrow.

[scooter]

Message to SleepingMoogle:

SleepingMoogle,

So I wanted to talk to you about an issue with settling rights... Unless I'm mistaken, there's a nice port city just south of my capital that is right between us, and unfortunately there's only room for one city there and not two. I'd like to have that city, but the problem is I'm guessing you'd like it too. We could race to the site of course, but there's a decent chance that could result in bad blood, which I'd like to avoid if at all possible... I could see our nations working together going forward, so I don't really want that spoiled early on by city placement issues. So here's the three options we have really:

1. We race to the site. Worst option...
2. I get the site in exchange for something you want.
3. You get the site in exchange for something I want.

I'm attempting to line up a similar deal with Dazed where I get the site to the north of my capital for other concessions on my part. I'd like to do the reverse with you - offer to give you claim to the port site directly between us in exchange for something else. I guess my question for you - is are you even interested in something like this? If you really don't care about the site that much, then I'd be happy to explore option #2..Of course if you just want to race for it that's fine with me too, but I figured I would see what else we could agree to first.

Hope you had a good trip!
scooter

I'm expecting he's going to want the spot, but if he's willing to sell it that would be beautiful. Unlikely though... I'm hoping to get something like a worker + work boat out of him for it... If I could get that it would be nice, but I've got to think that's a steep price to ask for it. I think? That's the problem - I'm afraid to ask TOO much only because I don't want to insult him, but I want to get a nice haul out of it if I'm going to give up that spot. The diplo bonus in making the deal is the other intangible that I'm getting, so that's my other incentive to make this deal.

[scooter]

Diplo update... Dazed is still balking but I'm still trying:

Scooter,

You're right, we're not far from settler time so things do need to be worked out quickly. Since you were honest with me, I'll be honest with you. I'd prefer if you were able to work something out with SleepingMoogle for the southern spot. Now that he is back communication should be possible again (I concede I forgot he was out of town! Whoops!). However, I do want to work a good relation out between the two of us as I think we could benefit well from working together.

So, I would suggest this path forward. Test the waters with SM. If he sounds favorable to a southern expansion plan, that could benefit us all. If he is adamant about settling north, then we can work out the details of what would be a fair concession for you to have rights to the fish to my south, your north.

Till later,

Dazed

My response:

Dazed,

I sent him a message earlier today, so I'm hoping to hear back from him in the not-so-distant future. My preference is on the northern spot, but I will see what I can work out. I'll just be blunt so you are aware of it - I'm going to make absolutely sure that I get one of these two port spots... It's my top priority... I am fine with not getting both of them (that's an unreasonable expectation), but if I don't get a deal worked out with one of the two of you, I will probably have to resort to racing to one of the spots, which will inevitably make one of the two of you not like me very much if I get the site (not what I'd prefer as relations have been very good with both of you so far). It's a tough spot to be in, but I've got to make do with what I've got. I think you'll understand where I'm coming from on this...

So I guess I'm just making that note - that if someone doesn't blink and accept a deal, then I'll do what I have to to get the spot. I don't mean that as a threat at all - I just thought I'd maybe shed a bit more light on why I was pushing that deal. Just a thought - if you end up getting that site, you'd be bordering a holy city... I wouldn't even be *trying* to fight you culturally, but it would happen. 7 culture/turn can be tough to deal with in the early game (9/turn once I add a terrace, 11 after library)... And yes this is just me trying to talk you into going north instead, but you can't blame me for trying right??

Well whatever ends up happening - I think we can all blame/thank Krill for giving us such a crazy start that causes this. I mentioned in my thread that I love that this game already had interesting diplo starting as early as turn 7 or 8, which is a rarity for a no tech trading game.

scooter

I'm still trying.

[scooter]

Overhead of the capital:



At next end of turn, I"ll grow to size 3, finish a Quecha, and finish Mining. I'll then work on a settler while size 3, working farmed corn, improved fish, and the forested ivory. Settler should be going to the northern site but that's still subject to change. We'll see...

I think Serdoa is already on a settler... Because someone is getting 7 shields/turn, which makes me wonder if that's an Imperialistic +50% bonus. He's getting 5/turn plus 2 for the bonus. I guess the five would come from the city square (1) + ivory (2) + a 1/2/0 tile? Or maybe he camped the ivory. Who knows. Don't really care that much as he's not my neighbor and I don't like doing C&D.