Is that character a variant? (I just love getting asked that in channel.) - Charis

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The scratching post

The Great Library is a nice wonder to have -- some free beakers from the two free scientists, plus 8 base GPP per turn including the wonder itself. As philosophical, that is a tasty 16 GS points per turn. smile If I can get it, I sometimes will add the National Epic in the same city to boost that even further. It risks diluting the GS points with a GA source, but getting more GP sooner with a high probability of GS is often worthwhile.

But keep in mind that Literacy is quite a long ways off at this point. You may find yourself fighting a war, or having lots of great land to expand into, etc., and end up needing to focus your efforts elsewhere. So it is good to be planning, but stay flexible.

I like the idea of grabbing the silver with the third city. You have lots of good land, and the boost to your happy cap will let you work more of those good tiles. The silver itself is also a nice commerce producer, not quite in the same class as gold or gems but still a very nice addition to your total commerce this early in the game. Add some cottages and your tech rate will pick up quite a bit, which you will need to be competitive in the tech race and have a shot at being first to wonders.
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Assuming a "normal" game progression from this point on, what do you think about the preliminary tech path I outlined? Is there anything you'd switch several places?
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Maybe someone pointed this out already, but you actually had 2 turns to build the warrior. Turn 1, you put some hammers into the warrior, and Ad Hoc enters your territory. Turn 2, you complete the warrior, the warrior appears in your city at the end of your turn, and when it's Ad Hoc's turn he can choose to attack it or back off.

Generally speaking on quick speed you'll have three turns warning to build a warrior, which is almost always possible, unless the enemy approaches on the diagonal, in which case you only have two turns (which is also often enough).
I have to run.
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Catwalk Wrote:Requirements for Literacy:
Animal Husbandry + Mysticism + Polytheism + Writing + Aesthetics => Literacy
I could combine this with a bid for Hinduism. Other priorities: Wheel, Pottery, Iron Working.

Preliminary guess at a tech plan:
Agriculture => Animal Husbandry => Wheel => Pottery => Mysticism => Polytheism => Iron Working => Writing => Aesthetics => Literacy

I'm thinking about delaying Iron Working even further, putting it after Literacy. Feedback welcome!

The first block of techs, up through Pottery, looks good to me. You get your basic worker techs in place to improve your local resources, reveal horses, and get roads and cottages going. Plus those wonderfully cheap expansive granaries. smile

The order after that is a bit harder to decide, and will depend on timing of your second and third cities. Assuming the second city goes for the site with copper and corn in the inner ring, you do not have to have Mysticism until you want a monument in your third city. This could allow you to move up Writing, getting libraries (and scientists for an early academy) going sooner. An early academy in the capital is one of the most effective ways of boosting your tech rate early, especially as your philosophical trait will make generating the first GP a much quicker process than for most civs.

Or IW could be moved earlier, revealing the resource (hopefully!) so you could hook it up and start building some praetorians. No one would want to give you trouble if you had a few praetorians around. smile IW also allows chopping jungle, which does not look to be an issue for the first couple cities but will be an issue later.

IW could be delayed a while, as you mentioned, since you will have copper available for certain. Earlier praetorians are nice, for both deterrence and aggression, but that depends on whether you want to attack anyone or feel the need for stronger defense. If not, move the tech back and get something else first.

Other possibilities not in your list:

- Sailing is pretty meh on this map, as your lakes are not big enough for lighthouses. Will be needed eventually as a prereq for Calendar, but that can be delayed a long time as you do not so far have a bunch of Calendar resources in your area. You will want it eventually, as there are banana and sugar to the northwest. And hopefully more elsewhere to the north.
- Alphabet depends entirely on tech trading -- was that on or off for this game? Spies are off if I am recalling correctly, and building research is rarely crucial unless you tank your economy through heavy expansion.
- Masonry can be interesting if you are after wonders, or are interested in pursuing Monotheism for founding Judaism or getting the OrgRel civic. Walls can also be useful if you expect to be attacked; the boost against siege weapons is valuable even if culture already provides as much or more defensive bonus. This is probably not an urgent priority for you, as you have not expressed much interesting in the Pyramids (and have not seen any stone around your lands).
- Mathematics can be an important gateway tech to a better economy (Currency), resource development (Calendar), and warmaking abilities (Construction). Plus the 50% boost to forest chops is always great to have, and the Hanging Gardens can be a nice wonder for health, population, and GE points. May not be an immediate priority, but you usually do not want to delay this tech too long.
- Priesthood allows for a run at the Oracle, which lots of people will likely want. But at least as important is that it opens the path to Monarchy and Hereditary Rule for boosting the happy cap, the first real solution to the limits on your cities unless you have plenty of happiness resources, get a religion, or go for Pyramids and Representation. So far you have seen silver, and that is it for early happiness resources in your lands. Whales and Optics are a ways off and very off the path for this mostly land map. There is sugar to the north for Calendar but that is only one Calendar happy resource so far.
- Metal Casting is an expensive tech, but forges can be very useful. Admittedly this is more attractive for Industrious civs, or those with multiple forge-boosted happy resources. You do have silver so forges will provide one extra happy face in addition to their +25% production bonus, which does apply to chops and whips. The Colossus is not much value (and maybe not even buildable, like lighthouses, not sure) on this land map, and workshops do not really become effective until additional techs and the Caste civic increase their hammer output.

Overall I think your proposed tech path looks good for the moment, just be prepared to re-evaluate as events unfold. I would think about moving Writing forward, and maybe consider when you want to push for Monarchy as well.
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novice Wrote:Maybe someone pointed this out already, but you actually had 2 turns to build the warrior. Turn 1, you put some hammers into the warrior, and Ad Hoc enters your territory. Turn 2, you complete the warrior, the warrior appears in your city at the end of your turn, and when it's Ad Hoc's turn he can choose to attack it or back off.

Generally speaking on quick speed you'll have three turns warning to build a warrior, which is almost always possible, unless the enemy approaches on the diagonal, in which case you only have two turns (which is also often enough).
Yeah, big lesson learned this game, had no idea it worked that way. But thanks smile
haphazard1 Wrote:The first block of techs, up through Pottery, looks good to me. You get your basic worker techs in place to improve your local resources, reveal horses, and get roads and cottages going. Plus those wonderfully cheap expansive granaries. smile
What will I actually be doing with my first worker? Chop, pasture, xxx? How soon will I need a road down to my second city?
Quote:The order after that is a bit harder to decide, and will depend on timing of your second and third cities. Assuming the second city goes for the site with copper and corn in the inner ring, you do not have to have Mysticism until you want a monument in your third city. This could allow you to move up Writing, getting libraries (and scientists for an early academy) going sooner. An early academy in the capital is one of the most effective ways of boosting your tech rate early, especially as your philosophical trait will make generating the first GP a much quicker process than for most civs.
Good point about Writing before Mysticism, that sounds doable. Main reason I wanted Mysticism was to have a shot at Hinduism, but I agree that an early library is also a high priority. I'll see what plans I have for the capital at that point, if I feel I can spare the hammers for a library I'll move Writing up. I also realized that I misread the tech table, I'll need Aesthetics as well before reaching Literature. This makes me less inclined to prioritize beelining TGL, and makes me want to put IT either after Writing or after Polytheims.
Quote:Or IW could be moved earlier, revealing the resource (hopefully!) so you could hook it up and start building some praetorians. No one would want to give you trouble if you had a few praetorians around. smile IW also allows chopping jungle, which does not look to be an issue for the first couple cities but will be an issue later.

IW could be delayed a while, as you mentioned, since you will have copper available for certain. Earlier praetorians are nice, for both deterrence and aggression, but that depends on whether you want to attack anyone or feel the need for stronger defense. If not, move the tech back and get something else first.
This is the one I'm having a hard time deciding on. I'm willing to gamble that it's highly likely I'll have an iron resource within reach, and it doesn't matter that much which city gets it. If I were to research it earlier it'd mainly be in order to train Praetorians sooner, and I'm not really planning on that. I have one friendly neighbour so far and planning on doing good scouting, that should help keep me somewhat safe and postpone Iron Working a little bit.
Quote:- Masonry can be interesting if you are after wonders, or are interested in pursuing Monotheism for founding Judaism or getting the OrgRel civic. Walls can also be useful if you expect to be attacked; the boost against siege weapons is valuable even if culture already provides as much or more defensive bonus. This is probably not an urgent priority for you, as you have not expressed much interesting in the Pyramids (and have not seen any stone around your lands).
Not much of a priority, no. Don't think I'll get this one before the above mentioned techs.
Quote:- Mathematics can be an important gateway tech to a better economy (Currency), resource development (Calendar), and warmaking abilities (Construction). Plus the 50% boost to forest chops is always great to have, and the Hanging Gardens can be a nice wonder for health, population, and GE points. May not be an immediate priority, but you usually do not want to delay this tech too long.
I do like this one, I think I'll likely tack it after IW in the plan above.
Quote:- Priesthood allows for a run at the Oracle, which lots of people will likely want. But at least as important is that it opens the path to Monarchy and Hereditary Rule for boosting the happy cap, the first real solution to the limits on your cities unless you have plenty of happiness resources, get a religion, or go for Pyramids and Representation. So far you have seen silver, and that is it for early happiness resources in your lands. Whales and Optics are a ways off and very off the path for this mostly land map. There is sugar to the north for Calendar but that is only one Calendar happy resource so far.
Why is Oracle so good? I'm assuming it's because you can grab a really expensive technology with it, provided you can time it properly.
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Catwalk Wrote:What will I actually be doing with my first worker? Chop, pasture, xxx? How soon will I need a road down to my second city?

The usual goal with the first worker is to improve the capital's resource tiles. With the seafood there are fewer of these than normal, but you definitely want to improve the pigs tile. After that, mining a hill or two is often a strong choice, depending on how many tiles the capital will be able to work at max size -- mined hills make a sizable difference in speed of producing workers and settlers. Once you finish Pottery, some cottages would certainly be in order, starting with the flood plains. (Unless you want to farm it instead for even more food, but I would cottage it.)

Or you could chop (or pre-chop) some forests. Many players will use an early chop to finish a second worker, which can then help with more chops to speed up the first settler -- every turn you can accelerate your second city means your growth curve starts earlier, that city grows earlier, it will produce more units/workers/settlers earlier, etc.

Ideally you would like to have the road to your second city site done just as the settler is produced, so that the trade route commerce for both cities will start immediately. (Or one turn after, really -- new cities do not get trade route commerce the turn they are founded even if they are connected to another city.) Right now you are getting 13 commerce in your capital; the new city center will give another for 14, plus maybe something for the first tile worked (although none if it is the corn). Say 14. Getting an extra trade route commerce in both cities will then be a 1/7 gain, or almost 15% to your total commerce. So getting that road ready on time is well worth doing.

Also, since the tiles between your capital and the copper/corn site are all 2-move tiles, completing the road ahead of time will mean founding the city quicker. If you roaded all three tiles (including the jungle tile), the settler could actually move and found the same turn it is produced. And the sooner founded, the sooner the city starts growing and producing, etc. Actually roading the jungle tile is likely not worth doing -- new cities automatically add roads to the center tile, and your worker is likely to have other things that need doing. But getting two roads down would still cut the settler travel-and-found time from 4 turns to 2.

So I would prioritize the worker:

1) Pasture the pigs
2) Have two segments of road in place, completed on or before the settler completes

If there is extra time available between 1 and 2, chop/pre-chop a forest (by preference the one 2W, since it would clear a river grass tile for a future cottage) would be good. If a lot of extra time is available between 1 and 2, mining a hill (by preference the one 2W1N, since it gets a free river commerce) would also be good.

Remember to take worker movement time into account in your planning. Especially on quick speed, the time lost moving onto hills or into forests can be a big deal -- this is a big part of what makes India and the Fast Worker such a desirable civ choice. If you have 2-move tiles where you are going to move back and forth more than once, it can be worthwhile to build a road the first time you move onto each tile.

Catwalk Wrote:Good point about Writing before Mysticism, that sounds doable. Main reason I wanted Mysticism was to have a shot at Hinduism, but I agree that an early library is also a high priority.

If you want to take a shot at Hinduism, that is a good reason to go for Mysticism earlier. It just becomes a bit of a psychological game, guessing whether anyone else will also be going for the religion. With only one civ starting with Mysticism, if they take Buddhism early then you have a shot at Hinduism if other players also choose to go for worker techs first. Just keep an eye out for religion founding messages.

Catwalk Wrote:I'll see what plans I have for the capital at that point, if I feel I can spare the hammers for a library I'll move Writing up. I also realized that I misread the tech table, I'll need Aesthetics as well before reaching Literature. This makes me less inclined to prioritize beelining TGL, and makes me want to put IT either after Writing or after Polytheims.

Aesthetics is a notably more expensive tech; like Math it is one of the next 'tier' of techs as you get beyond the initial couple levels of the tech tree.

Catwalk Wrote:This is the one I'm having a hard time deciding on. I'm willing to gamble that it's highly likely I'll have an iron resource within reach, and it doesn't matter that much which city gets it. If I were to research it earlier it'd mainly be in order to train Praetorians sooner, and I'm not really planning on that. I have one friendly neighbour so far and planning on doing good scouting, that should help keep me somewhat safe and postpone Iron Working a little bit.

Since you have copper for metal units, IW becomes a bit lower priority. Hopefully you will have iron nearby; it makes a very nice production tile in addition to the value of the resource itself.

Catwalk Wrote:Not much of a priority, no. Don't think I'll get this one before the above mentioned techs.

Unless you are building a game plan around the Pyramids or the Great Wall, or aiming to found Judaism, Masonry is often sort of an afterthought that gets grabbed later.

Catwalk Wrote:I do like this one, I think I'll likely tack it after IW in the plan above.

Math is an important tech, but it is part of that next tier and is significantly more expensive than earlier techs, including IW. So planning for it to be a bit later is often the wise choice.

Catwalk Wrote:Why is Oracle so good? I'm assuming it's because you can grab a really expensive technology with it, provided you can time it properly.

Exactly. You can grab any tech you are able to research at the time you complete the Oracle, no matter how expensive. Many strategies center on using the Oracle to grab Civil Service (often called the 'CS slingshot'), which is very aggressive and generally not practical against human opponents or at tougher SP difficulties. It is an incredibly powerful strategy if you can pull it off, as you end up being able to run Bureaucracy civic for +50% hammers, +50% commerce in your capital centuries before your opponents -- it can turn a competitive game into a rout. Changes were made when BtS was released to make the CS slingshot harder to achieve, because it was so powerful.

Other common targets for the Oracle are Metal Casting -- extremely expensive tech with easy prereqs and large benefits, especially for industrial civs -- and Code of Laws -- found a religion and get courthouses to control expansion costs. In MP games or high SP difficulties where the race for the wonder is tougher, any relatively expensive tech can be taken -- Math or Aesthetics are choices I have seen in such cases.

At low SP difficulties really ridiculous things can happen with the Oracle -- I have seen games where people got Chemistry or even Steel with the Oracle. yikes But there is a large amount of luck involved, delaying the wonder that long and hoping no AI builds it.
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haphazard1 Wrote:The usual goal with the first worker is to improve the capital's resource tiles. With the seafood there are fewer of these than normal, but you definitely want to improve the pigs tile. After that, mining a hill or two is often a strong choice, depending on how many tiles the capital will be able to work at max size -- mined hills make a sizable difference in speed of producing workers and settlers. Once you finish Pottery, some cottages would certainly be in order, starting with the flood plains. (Unless you want to farm it instead for even more food, but I would cottage it.)

Or you could chop (or pre-chop) some forests. Many players will use an early chop to finish a second worker, which can then help with more chops to speed up the first settler -- every turn you can accelerate your second city means your growth curve starts earlier, that city grows earlier, it will produce more units/workers/settlers earlier, etc.

So I would prioritize the worker:

1) Pasture the pigs
2) Have two segments of road in place, completed on or before the settler completes

If there is extra time available between 1 and 2, chop/pre-chop a forest (by preference the one 2W, since it would clear a river grass tile for a future cottage) would be good. If a lot of extra time is available between 1 and 2, mining a hill (by preference the one 2W1N, since it gets a free river commerce) would also be good.
I'm thinking I'll chop a forest first to speed up the settler as AH won't be available soon enough. Then do the pasture after that. I'm also considering whipping the first settler, revolting into slavery after the worker has finished. Is it 13 hammers for chopping and 20 hammers for whipping at Quick speed?
I won't be able to road the new site either before the settler comes online, unless I go ahead and build two workers before my first settler. Any recommendations? Current plans
Settler first
1) Chop either of the forests W or SW of town (to save a turn compared with going 2W) and whip settler
2) Pasture pigs
3) Mine copper
4) Farm corn
I know that farming the corn before mining the copper makes more sense, but it'll have grown to size 2 about the time the first project is complete anyway and I can complete both faster if I do it in this order

I think I'll make a sandbox to see how this all works out, I'm having a hard time visualing the timing.
Quote:If you want to take a shot at Hinduism, that is a good reason to go for Mysticism earlier. It just becomes a bit of a psychological game, guessing whether anyone else will also be going for the religion. With only one civ starting with Mysticism, if they take Buddhism early then you have a shot at Hinduism if other players also choose to go for worker techs first. Just keep an eye out for religion founding messages.

I was thinking about informing Ad Hoc that I'll be prioritizing Hinduism, in hopes that I will improve relations further (by sharing plans) and make him cooperate (by not competing for it).
Quote:Exactly. You can grab any tech you are able to research at the time you complete the Oracle, no matter how expensive. Many strategies center on using the Oracle to grab Civil Service (often called the 'CS slingshot'), which is very aggressive and generally not practical against human opponents or at tougher SP difficulties. It is an incredibly powerful strategy if you can pull it off, as you end up being able to run Bureaucracy civic for +50% hammers, +50% commerce in your capital centuries before your opponents -- it can turn a competitive game into a rout. Changes were made when BtS was released to make the CS slingshot harder to achieve, because it was so powerful.
Suddenly I'm finding myself wanting Marble even badder. I'm disappointed to not have seen either Stone or Marble yet, if this is indeed a mirror map I've probably seen most of what the world has to offer.
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Current settling plans, in the order Red => Orange => maybe Pink if nothing better shows up. The Pink one has a fair bit of jungle and is more of a filler city, I think it's a good location but I'll probably push it down the list after seeing what's to the N, E and S. E and S look a bit like jungle belts, though. Will I be able to build Moai statues on this map? If so, the Pink city would be a good bet for that with 5 lakes. 2/1/2 isn't bad with no improvements required, and it has a whale. What's the easiest way to dotmap? I checked out the post by GES, but I don't have Powerpoint.
[Image: dotmap-2.png]
Current city status:
[Image: city.png]
I'll delay the current warrior after the city grows next turn and reassign city tiles for better production.

I was thinking about sending Ad Hoc a message saying that we have no plans to build Stonehenge or Pyramids, and that we will not be pursuing Meditation. Would be a gesture of trust and make it a little bit easier for him to plan, possibly encouraging him to give us a hint as to what his plans are. Also thinking about suggesting exchange of screenshots, seeing as how I'm planning on expanding away from him that might further help boost relations.
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I just realized something:
Cull ........................................Sury of Sumeria
Exp/Cre
Vulture: Axemen with strength 6, weaker against melee
Ziggurat: Courthouse requiring 25% fewer hammers and lower tech
Agriculture + Wheel

Catwalk.....................................Peter of Rome
Exp/Phi
Praetorians: Swordsmen with strength 8, no bonus against cities
Forum: Market with +25% GPP
Fishing + Mining

Pegasus.....................................Hatty of England
Spi/Cre
Redcoats: Riflemen with +25% vs gunpowder units
Stock Exchange: Banks with an extra +15% gold
Fishing + Mining

Ceiliazul (ded. lurker Commodore)....Louis of the Ottomen
Ind/Cre
Hamman: Aqueduct with +2 happiness
Janissary: Musketman with +25% against everything
Agriculture + Wheel

ad hoc.......................................Pericles of Arabia
Phi/Cre
Camel Archer: Knight which doesn't require horses or iron
Madrassa: Library with +2 culture and +2 priests allowed
Mysticism + Wheel
I'm the only non-creative player! I see this as a good thing, as it means others are not likely to build Stonehenge. Ceiliazul is Industrious and Ad Hoc is Philosophical which both encourage wonder production in general, but noone benefits as much as I do. I think I have to make this a high priority, possibly changing plans to get Mysticism sooner.

Furthermore, I notice that Ad Hoc is the only one to start with Mysticism. This makes it a little easier to grab a religion, and means he's the only who has a lead on Stonehenge. I think I'm going to chat him up about wonder and religion plans, seems like we would both benefit from some minor coordination. He will likely want an early religion, and it's definitely in his interest to have one competitor less for the religion he wants.

Should I ensure that Stonehenge is built in the Holy City? What are the exact effects of religion in the holy city and in other cities?
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Catwalk Wrote:I'm thinking I'll chop a forest first to speed up the settler as AH won't be available soon enough. Then do the pasture after that. I'm also considering whipping the first settler, revolting into slavery after the worker has finished. Is it 13 hammers for chopping and 20 hammers for whipping at Quick speed?

13 hammers for chopping until you have Math, then 20. Usually 20 for whipping, unless you are whipping a wonder or have zero hammers in the box.

Catwalk Wrote:I won't be able to road the new site either before the settler comes online, unless I go ahead and build two workers before my first settler. Any recommendations? Current plans
Settler first
1) Chop either of the forests W or SW of town (to save a turn compared with going 2W) and whip settler
2) Pasture pigs
3) Mine copper
4) Farm corn
I know that farming the corn before mining the copper makes more sense, but it'll have grown to size 2 about the time the first project is complete anyway and I can complete both faster if I do it in this order

Mining the copper first would be my choice as well. Both it and the corn will be strong tiles, and you can mine faster than you can farm (at least on normal speed and above, not sure on quick).

For the forest chop, SW will clear a tile for the settler to move through, and make it easier to move back into the tile to build one of your needed road segments later.

If you can't get the road ready ahead of time (and improving key resource tiles is definitely more important), try to get it built as soon as you can. This may mean another worker needs to be built -- you will have 2 cities so should get at least 2 workers going if not more. The need for early worker turns for resources, roads, chopping, etc., is what makes having an early worker chop another worker a valuable tactic.

Catwalk Wrote:I think I'll make a sandbox to see how this all works out, I'm having a hard time visualing the timing.

Building a good sandbox is very valuable if you have the time available to do so. It is the best way to catch small things that would otherwise trip up your planning.

Catwalk Wrote:I was thinking about informing Ad Hoc that I'll be prioritizing Hinduism, in hopes that I will improve relations further (by sharing plans) and make him cooperate (by not competing for it).

Suddenly I'm finding myself wanting Marble even badder. I'm disappointed to not have seen either Stone or Marble yet, if this is indeed a mirror map I've probably seen most of what the world has to offer.

I would not be surprised if the lack of stone and marble is intentional by the map maker. If anyone has them within early reach, then everyone must have them to avoid seriously unbalancing the game. There might be some placed equidistant from the starting locations, as an encouragement to strife over those areas. The same thing can be done with any desirable resource, of course, such as iron, gold, etc.

Catwalk Wrote:Current settling plans, in the order Red => Orange => maybe Pink if nothing better shows up. The Pink one has a fair bit of jungle and is more of a filler city, I think it's a good location but I'll probably push it down the list after seeing what's to the N, E and S. E and S look a bit like jungle belts, though. Will I be able to build Moai statues on this map? If so, the Pink city would be a good bet for that with 5 lakes. 2/1/2 isn't bad with no improvements required, and it has a whale. What's the easiest way to dotmap? I checked out the post by GES, but I don't have Powerpoint.

I am curious about the placement of Orange. Why not 1N of the marked location? You would eliminate 5 tiles of overlap (4 with the capital and one with Pink) while losing no resources or FPs, and gaining 3 forests. You swap a couple grass hills for plains hills, but the site has enough food to work them and trade the food for hammers. You also keep fresh water while freeing up a riverside grass tile. Orange would be a tiny bit further from the capital for slightly higher maintenance and a little more challenging to defend, but only slightly. Also, you would start with cows and crabs in the inner ring, rather than needing a border pop to get them. The FP would be out of reach until a border pop, of course, but are weaker tiles than the resources.

Pink is a pretty strong site, although the jungle is a bit of an issue. You will definitely want IW before, or very soon after, founding this city. Lots of food, so you could run some specialists in Pink quite easily.

Moai...I am not sure if it has similar requirements as a lighthouse, or if you could build it. But it is pretty expensive for what it does, something like 167 hammers on quick? (375 on epic, so 250 on normal). If you find some stone somewhere it could be worthwhile, otherwise you probably have better ways to spend your hammers.

I generally play with the BUFFY mod, which includes the BUG features, in my personal games. It has a very nice built-in dot mapping functionality. In games without it, I tend to put signs (alt-S) on the planned center tiles and draw in the BFC borders using the strategy layer tools.

Catwalk Wrote:Current city status:

Why work the lake tile rather than the pigs? The extra commerce is nice, but I usually value a hammer more than a commerce at this stage. It depends what you want, though, a little more research or an extra hpt on the warrior.

Catwalk Wrote:I was thinking about sending Ad Hoc a message saying that we have no plans to build Stonehenge or Pyramids, and that we will not be pursuing Meditation. Would be a gesture of trust and make it a little bit easier for him to plan, possibly encouraging him to give us a hint as to what his plans are. Also thinking about suggesting exchange of screenshots, seeing as how I'm planning on expanding away from him that might further help boost relations.

If he would be willing to reveal some info about the east and southeast, that would certainly be a good sign of friendship. There may be very good land in that direction.

Catwalk Wrote:I just realized something:

I'm the only non-creative player! I see this as a good thing, as it means others are not likely to build Stonehenge. Ceiliazul is Industrious and Ad Hoc is Philosophical which both encourage wonder production in general, but noone benefits as much as I do. I think I have to make this a high priority, possibly changing plans to get Mysticism sooner.

Creative is a very valuable trait, especially with Financial being banned. All the issues about how to pop borders can be ignored. Stonehenge would be valuable for you, saving you the cost of building monuments in your new cities. But it will cost quite a few hammers -- is this more worthwhile than another settler, or workers, or whatever you could have built instead? On the plus side, how do the hammers compare to building multiple monuments? And the GPP would certainly be nice as a philosophical civ. As with all wonders, there are tradeoffs. Judge the pros and cons and make your decision.

Catwalk Wrote:Furthermore, I notice that Ad Hoc is the only one to start with Mysticism. This makes it a little easier to grab a religion, and means he's the only who has a lead on Stonehenge. I think I'm going to chat him up about wonder and religion plans, seems like we would both benefit from some minor coordination. He will likely want an early religion, and it's definitely in his interest to have one competitor less for the religion he wants.

I think I mentioned ad hoc being the only civ starting with Mysticism twice. lol It gives him a guaranteed early religion if he wants it (and most likely he would, or he is not making the most of his traits). And it may mean he really wants Stonehenge for the GPP, to get a prophet for his shrine. So he may be more of a competitor for it, not less.

Chatting with him is certainly a good idea. See what he might be willing to reveal, more info never hurts.

Catwalk Wrote:Should I ensure that Stonehenge is built in the Holy City? What are the exact effects of religion in the holy city and in other cities?

There is no benefit that I am aware of to having Stonehenge in the Holy City. The two are not connected in any way. Stonehenge will generate GPP in its city, plus culture, while providing a free monument in all your cities.

A religion will add culture to a city, either 1 cpt for a regular city or 5 cpt for the holy city. Note that this applies if you run that religion as your state religion, or run no state religion; if you run a different religion as your state religion then only that other religion will generate culture. I have seen holy cities get culture flipped to an enemy because the owner was running a different state religion and thus got zero culture from the holy city.

If you do adopt a religion as your state religion, then all cities with that religion get +1 happiness. Again, as with culture, other religions than your state religion do not generate happiness. If you adopt the Free Religion civic (available at Liberalism tech or by building the Shwedagon Paya wonder), then you automatically have no state religion and all religions in a city will generate +1 happiness each.

Another major effect of religion is on the religious civics: only cities with your state religion get the bonus for religious civics. So if you plan to run Organized Religion for the building bonus, or Theocracy for unit XP, or Pacifism for the GPP boost, the benefits only accrue to cities with your state religion. This makes spreading your state religion to all of your cities important, although generally this costs hammers for building missionaries.

Any city with a religion can build a monastery (if you have Meditation tech), temple (if you have Priesthood), and cathedral (if you have Music plus enough temples of that religion) of that religion. This is true whether that religion is your state religion or not. So you can get some of the benefits of a religion while running another state religion, or having no state religion.

Let's see, what else...holy cities. The holy city generates more culture (as noted above), and you can build the shrine there. Otherwise it acts pretty much like any other city as far as effects of religion are concerned. If you build the shrine (requires a great prophet), it will generate culture, 1 prophet point per turn (2 since you are philosophical), add some priest slots, and generate 1 gold per turn for every city in the world with that religion -- no matter who owns those cities. Also, the shrine boosts the rate at which that religion spreads to new cities.

Selection of the holy city when a religion is founded is a semi-random process, where the capital city is strongly disfavored and each religion already present in a city makes it much less likely to be chosen. The overall effect is that if you have one or more cities with zero religions, it is almost certain that one of them will be chosen at random. Otherwise a city will be chosen at random from those with the fewest religions, but the capital gets a big negative and will very rarely be chosen.

Religious spread...only cities without any religions can get free spread. I believe religion can only spread between cities that have a connection (roads, rivers/coast with Sailing, ocean with Astronomy) although I have seen occasional cases that make me a bit unsure of this. Religions can spread across borders without Open Borders treaties. If a civ is running Theocracy civic, then no religion other than the civ's state religion can spread into its cities.

Once a city has any religion, spreading other religions to it will require missionaries. The more religions already present in a city, the greater the chance a missionary will fail. Zero religions is 100% success, and chances remain pretty good for the first 2-3 religions. Getting a 6th or 7th religion into a city can be painfully difficult. The three earliest religions (Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism) get a holy city when founded, while the four later religions get a holy city plus one free missionary in the holy city.

Hmmm, I guess that was a big enough data dump. lol I probably should have just found an existing article about religion. smile
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