[Spoilers] Lazteuq and RefSteel's PB51 Adventure

[RefSteel]

Barb warrior vanished into the fog, so there are no clear and present dangers.

That's good to hear, especially as we're finally getting close to being able to respond to barbarian threats with more than just warriors and prayers to the pRNGods!

Enchilada keeps being exactly 1food short of growth-that's an annoying pattern.

Oh - interesting! I wasn't sure exactly how much food it had. If it'll be 1 food short of growing to 3, that should mean it'll have 18f in the bin when it grows, so we should actually be able to grow to 4 the very next turn by working max food instead of the mine. I've edited the plan above accordingly.

The GNP and production are probably so low because we're on 0% research and the cities are whipped down heavily right now.

Even so, with our just-below-average crop yield, those are indications of how far behind we still are (especially since the GNP includes 6 points of creative culture!) - but we're trying to improve that; we'll see how things look after five or ten more turns. We still haven't even started a cottage yet in spite of all our floodplains, and that's not helping our GNP. The gold and ivory will help (allowing us to grow and/or whip more) but I suspect we also need more workers. Good call getting another one out of Quesadilla after the previous whip.

Makes me think nobody is doing a full-effort military buildup.

That makes sense this early. Amicalola's elimination was probably opportunistic, with relatively limited investment. (Probably.)

At least we're #1 in something...

Heh, yeah. It would be pretty amazing (in more than one sense of the word) if we could keep that lead, but hopefully we'll be doing better in other demos too before much longer. (Hopefully! It's hard to overcome a deficit because of the snowballing nature of the game, but we'll see what we can do!)

[Lazteuq]

T58+59:
Enchilada was able to grow in 1 turn as you predicted, so it will 2pop whip the settler T60. I think the settler will be able to found city4 on T63.
Quesadilla will finish a worker T63, and should reach size4 on T64. That is OK for happiness because we will have gold connected.
The Gold Mine will be done T61. This leaves an awkward pause for the workers on T62 where we won't be able to start on the northern cow and ivory until T63. I think they should chop the forest hill 2E of gold(which I already put 1turn of chop into as you suggested) and then go to improve the cow. I think the upcoming worker6 should start cottaging the floodplains.


Demographics: oof, I hadn't realized GNP includes culture, that puts us farther behind than I thought. I'll keep playing the optimist though.

About research: I've been leaving it on 0% because Math will cost us about 150gold total deficit at 100%, so I think there is no harm until waiting until we have at least that much in the bank, for maximum library benefit. Could finish hunting in 1turn any time.

[RefSteel]

Quesadilla will finish a worker T63, and should reach size4 on T64. That is OK for happiness because we will have gold connected.

Even better, actually: If you switch back to growing on the Library (or Chariot or whatever the city was growing on) on T60, it'll be happy again when the gold is connected T61. Then you'll have the choice of continuing to grow, switching back to the Worker, and (with the aid of the chop) completing it T63 - or you could WHIP the Worker (for 2 pop) on T61, producing one Worker T62, starting another one immediately, and (again thanks to the chop) producing that second Worker T63, even with some overflow for the library! This does cost us another point of whip anger, of course, but it might well be worth the price.

This leaves an awkward pause for the workers on T62 where we won't be able to start on the northern cow and ivory until T63. I think they should chop the forest hill 2E of gold(which I already put 1turn of chop into as you suggested) and then go to improve the cow. I think the upcoming worker6 should start cottaging the floodplains.

Sounds like a great plan to me! As described above, we can even use this to get a 7th Worker out to help get those cottages up finally, if we're willing to accept the whip anger in Quesadilla!

Demographics: oof, I hadn't realized GNP includes culture, that puts us farther behind than I thought. I'll keep playing the optimist though.

Note that our eastern neighbor's GNP is inflated even more than ours, due to Stonehenge - but yeah, we've got some catching up to do!

About research: I've been leaving it on 0% because Math will cost us about 150gold total deficit at 100%, so I think there is no harm until waiting until we have at least that much in the bank, for maximum library benefit. Could finish hunting in 1turn any time.

I agree with this too. The capital's library will make the biggest difference if we can complete it before we resume research (or at least early in our research progress). We do need to get Chariots from somewhere too though - tough calls all around!

[Lazteuq]

Up to T64-
Salsa was founded on T63(cow, ivory, gold). It reveals some crab up north too.



The Southern Region:

After the Chariot in Carne Asada, I think 2pop-whipping a barracks would be better, before continuing to build military. I think the promotions are worth a delay. Carne Asada can afford the unhappiness.
The barb city is now size2, so it won't autoraze. Assuming no imminent neighbor danger or barb madness, I think we can take the barb city before T70. Then, the workers already south of Carne Asada will go improve Assyrian.


I see no signs of new cities from Giraflorens or Superdeath. It looks like Superdeath's most northern borders are from his capital, not a second city. That means he will probably want to found a city up north toward us soon, I'm guessing around the copper and rice area. I've seen no scouts or warriors exploring though, so I'm not even sure if he knows about that land yet!
We now have intel on Superdeath, and he and Giraflorens both have significantly higher "power" now. I'm uncomfortable about founding another city in view of either one of them without a few serious units backing it up.
I don't know what strategic resources either one has, all I've seen is warriors.


Micro Ideas:
Salsa's cow is pastured as of T64. Those 2 workers(#3 and #5) could have the Ivory improved and connected by T67, but I think it is better for one of them to chop the forest 1SE of Salsa Verde instead to get a granary faster. Then, I think I want a farm on that tile SE of Salsa, because Salsa will be a food-poor city, and it needs surplus food to afford to work the gold.
Enchilada just finished a library and Quesadilla has 16/90 on a library, but next turn it will get 28 overflow, so I think that means the first 2 cities will have libraries by T67 I think, that will be good timing to start teching again.
I overlooked the turn where whipping Worker6 out of Quesadilla would have made sense, so it followed a slightly different path. I think it's fine though, because it will still get a library soon after 2 workers.

My goal is to avoid wasting worker turns travelling between cities as much as possible.
T65: Worker 5 moves from cow to ivory and starts improving it, Worker 3 moves to grass forest 1SE of Salsa (I wonder if this is a good time to Avoid Growth?). Worker1 leaves the copper and starts roading the cow next to barbarians. Workers 2 and 4 move to the plains forest 2E of Carne Asada and chop.
T66: Worker6 goes 1SW to cottage floodplain 2E1N of Enchilada(we already have a few turns of progress on this). Worker 7 is completed in Quesadilla and continues the cottage 2S of Quesadilla. Worker 2 finishes the chop while Worker4 moves to cottage floodplain 1N of Enchilada.
T67: Worker 3 starts chopping. Worker 2 moves to the forest 1S of Carne Asada. Worker1 is done roading the cow and moves to the tile 2S of Carne Asada and starts a cottage.
T68:
T69: Worker 5 is done improving ivory, starts roading. Worker 3 is done chopping 1SE of Salsa, it starts a farm. Worker 7 is done cottaging 2S of Quesadilla.
T70: By this time, we should have the barb city, so Workers 1 and 2 go connect and improve it. Also we should know where the next settler will go by this time. think Worker 6 will be done with cottage 2E1N of Enchilada.

[RefSteel]

Looks from PBSpy like I'm a bit late to make suggestions on T65, but bear in mind we do need to finish Hunting before we can build a camp on the ivory! Fortunately, if we didn't increase the tech slider T65, we can just start a road on the tile (needed to get the happiness anyway) while we do finish the tech.

After the Chariot in Carne Asada, I think 2pop-whipping a barracks would be better, before continuing to build military. I think the promotions are worth a delay. Carne Asada can afford the unhappiness.

Sounds fine to me. That city will probably build a lot of military for us, so when we have no immediate need for another unit, a barracks there is a good thing.

The barb city is now size2, so it won't autoraze. Assuming no imminent neighbor danger or barb madness, I think we can take the barb city before T70. Then, the workers already south of Carne Asada will go improve Assyrian.

Sounds like a plan; I wonder if superdeath is aware of the city....

I see no signs of new cities from Giraflorens or Superdeath.

Easy way to check their number of cities is to open the diplo screen; you should see the names of every city except their capital listed (and, on our side, all our non-capital cities). Later, when we have a trade connection, we'll be able to see all their resources this way too.

Then, I think I want a farm on that tile SE of Salsa, because Salsa will be a food-poor city, and it needs surplus food to afford to work the gold.

This might be useful eventually, but I think we have higher-priority needs for our worker turns (e.g. floodplain cottages at Enchilada) than an off-river non-resource farm. Salsa Verde should probably work Cow at size 1, Cow + Ivory at size 2, and Cow + Ivory + Gold at size 3, so it'll be a while before it would work the farm even if we took the time to build it.

Worker 3 moves to grass forest 1SE of Salsa (I wonder if this is a good time to Avoid Growth?)

It's almost never a good idea to Avoid Growth; it's only useful for edge cases, usually because of the happiness or a just-finished granary, and then only when the city would be just barely growing to the exact breadslice (because if you're not growing anyway, you don't need to Avoid it, and if you're getting more food than you need to grow, Avoid Growth means the excess is lost with no compensation; the lost excess isn't even added to the granary). I don't see a reason to do it at Salsa Verde.

Workers 2 and 4 move to the plains forest 2E of Carne Asada and chop.

(This applies to the worker moving to the ivory too...) Workers can only actually take worker actions when they have movement points - at least a fraction of a movement point - remaining. So if you move two tiles not along roads or four tiles along roads or three tiles only partly along roads, that "wastes" a worker turn on movement. Now, this is sometimes the best you can do: There are times (even when not moving to an unroaded forest or hill) when one more tile of movement is more important than any worker action that might have been begun along the way. But other times, it really is a waste (even if a small one) - for instance, Workers on the copper who want to chop the roaded plains forest could start by moving 1E, mining, and canceling orders (even if the mine might not be finished for a long time) and then move 3E and chop, so that you get those turns of mining for free. Similarly...

T66: Worker6 goes 1SW to cottage floodplain 2E1N of Enchilada(we already have a few turns of progress on this). Worker 7 is completed in Quesadilla and continues the cottage 2S of Quesadilla. Worker 2 finishes the chop while Worker4 moves to cottage floodplain 1N of Enchilada.

Here, if Worker4 moves directly to that floodplain, it will use its entire turn. It could instead e.g. move just NE-E and start a cottage on the bare grassland (if we'll eventually want one there) and then CANCEL orders, because since the floodplain is on flatland, it will still be able to move 1NE to the floodplain and start cottaging just as soon.

More generally though, I think I've talked too much this game about micro stuff and not enough about strategic considerations: Not-wasting-worker-turns, for instance, is not an important goal in itself; it's just a useful thing to pay attention to when optimizing a plan. The most important thing for a microplan to do is to serve your larger goals - things like finishing granaries ASAP because you want to grow quickly and make good use of the whip, generating real units in time to fight barbs or invaders, producing more Workers and Settlers and units to defend them, connecting your cities, etc. The trick is to figure out how to most-quickly complete the most-important of these goals while also accomplishing secondary goals as far as possible; making full use of worker turns - and more importantly, how you make use of them - needs to support those goals, and for that to happen, you have to identify the ones that matter most. (So, for instance, it's not important to build a tile improvement that won't be worked for many turns to come, though if you can build it in passing, without wasting turns, "for free," that's still valuable as long as you'll use it eventually!)

T67: Worker 3 starts chopping. Worker 2 moves to the forest 1S of Carne Asada. Worker1 is done roading the cow and moves to the tile 2S of Carne Asada and starts a cottage.

I think Worker3 would have started chopping T66, and Woker2 will still be chopping here (even if Worker4 helped out for a turn instead of continuing toward the floodplain, unless Worker4 completes the chop instead).

Also we should know where the next settler will go by this time.

If everything goes perfectly, with neither neighbors nor barbs threatening militarily, where would you prefer to send the next Settler?

Looking just at Salsa Verde: It looks to me like as we start T66, it probably has 11 food in the bin and 7 hammers in a granary, and it'll grow T69, with 1f left in the bin after growth and 36h (including the chop) in the granary. At that point, we could work cow + gold for three turns, then start working the improved ivory T72, to complete the granary T74 and grow to size 3 (and so back onto the gold) T77. (we would be 1f short of growth T76, but that's intentional to fill the granary's food stores). Working the gold for those three turns right after growth is a micro choice that supports the goals of maximizing food through the granary and working the gold (with its high commerce yield) as much as possible. It would be possible to grow to size 3 sooner by just working the ivory from size 2 on, but we'd end up working the gold for one turn less in total and getting less food overall by front-loading it before the granary is complete.

[Lazteuq]

T65:
Your post definitely helps me understand the "why" of worker micro better. I think the priorities for workers after their current tasks are:
-Cottaging around Quesadilla and Enchilada
-Roading toward new city sites discussed below
-Chopping out military and settlers, but I also know that waiting until after Math makes chops more efficient.

I wonder if superdeath is aware of the city....

Well, we certainly got a quick answer: Superdeath showed up in the neighborhood with a warrior 4S1E of Carne Asada, so he does see our borders and does know about the barb city. I think we'll get it before he can though.

but I think we have higher-priority needs for our worker turns (e.g. floodplain cottages at Enchilada) than an off-river non-resource farm

Ok, so I'll continue chopping the forest into a granary and then send the worker off to do something more important

Looking just at Salsa Verde: It looks to me like as we start T66, it probably has 11 food in the bin and 7 hammers in a granary, and it'll grow T69, with 1f left in the bin after growth and 36h (including the chop) in the granary. At that point, we could work cow + gold for three turns, then start working the improved ivory T72, to complete the granary T74 and grow to size 3 (and so back onto the gold) T77. (we would be 1f short of growth T76, but that's intentional to fill the granary's food stores). Working the gold for those three turns right after growth is a micro choice that supports the goals of maximizing food through the granary and working the gold (with its high commerce yield) as much as possible. It would be possible to grow to size 3 sooner by just working the ivory from size 2 on, but we'd end up working the gold for one turn less in total and getting less food overall by front-loading it before the granary is complete.

That makes sense, will definitely go with it.

City Status:
-Enchilada is finishing a Chariot in 2t and is about to grow to Size 5. I'm thinking of maybe growing to size 6, then 2pop whipping a settler. I don't want to skip out on working cottage tiles once we have them.
-Quesadilla just started on a Warrior, but we finish hunting this turn so that will become a Spearman. When the spearman is done, it will probably already be size5 and whip a settler. It will have 3 improved tiles, so I like whipping to size3.
-Carne Asada is going to whip barracks next turn and then should be able to complete an axe the next turn with overflow+chop.

City Sites: I would prefer to settle somewhere East, probably Lime Green(3E2S of Quesadilla). I don't expect Superdeath's next city to impede our expansion, but I am concerned that Giraflorens could. Also, that land is better than what we have near Superdeath anyway. The new city could share the corn with Quesadilla for super fast growth too. 
I don't think we should settle along the inner coast because:
-It is poorer land
-It is farther from our existing civilization, so requires more investment to connect and improve.
-It is harder to defend culturally and militarily, both right now and later
-I would prefer to have Giraflorens and Superdeath fight over a direct border there.

After that city is hopefully founded, I think the next one should go toward superdeath. I'm not sure how aggressively to settle. The passive option would be along the river 1N of sheep, but we could go farther south and claim more land right next to his border. That might encourage a mutually destructive war though..

Big Picture:
Despite quite a few mistakes on my part, I think we are still in a situation of being blessed with a lot of land. Both neighbors seem to be slow to expand toward us, and we've been given a basically free barb city. I think we can try for settling 4 more border cities, plus 2 more backline cities along the outer coast, plus the barb city. That would be 11 cities without necessarily having a war. And then maybe we claim some islands too.
Of course that much expansion will lead to inevitable conflict with someone. I think the tech path should go toward Construction pretty soon, even if the catapults are to be used mostly defensively in the shorter term.
I have a suspicion that Giraflorens is an easier military opponent than Superdeath but not enough intel to back it up.

I think it is important to explore past Giraflorens along the outer coast to find out who is on the other side, before the border closes up. We already have a warrior similarly exploring past Superdeath.

[Lazteuq]

Great People: I want to get Quesadilla started with 2 Scientists ASAP, so maybe it's better to not whip a settler out.
Another reason to settle floodplains to the east soon is to get the cottages growing sooner, that land is better for cottages than any other city site I think.
Also I changed the thread name.

[RefSteel]

I think the priorities for workers after their current tasks are:

These sound good to me! Just bear our growth and happy cap in mind, including whip anger wearing off and/or being created anew by more whipping, since there's no point in building an improvement that won't be worked! (Enchilada can afford to work an extra FP cottage instead of its mine though - at least when not building workers and settlers!)

Interesting thoughts on city placement; I wouldn't have thought of encouraging Superdeath and Gira to border each other! Lime green dot seems like a fine choice for our next city, which - given our worker priorities, means we can think about where and when we're planning to produce the Settler for it and try to get the necessary roads finished and workers and defenders in position by the time it's ready to use them! Similarly for the city toward superdeath, of course.

Big Picture:

Good thoughts here too. Have you checked to see how much total land is available on the map? (Mousing over your name on the scoreboard in the lower right of the screen should show, among other things, our land score in the lower left. This will be a fraction where the numerator is the number of land tiles we controlled 20 turns ago and the denominator is the total number of land tiles on the board.)

Great People: I want to get Quesadilla started with 2 Scientists ASAP, so maybe it's better to not whip a settler out.

Are we still on track to get libraries by T67 then? If so, that should be a step in the right direction for improving our research speed, and getting a Great Scientist for an Academy in the capital should indeed improve it still more!

[Lazteuq]

T68:
Enchilada would be unhappy at size 6, so I set it to make a settler for lime dot. This can be a 3-pop whip if we let enchilada grow next turn: I think I want to work on a barracks next turn to let it grow, then 3pop whip the settler T70. That would lead to settling lime dot at T72 or 73.That wouldn't hurt our research as much as whipping out of Quesadilla, which I have a different plan for:

Quesadilla is running 2 scientists and building a settler on size4 because it will be unhappy if it grows for 4 more turns, until ivory is connected. If it runs 1 scientist, it could whip that settler on T72. However, I think its better to run 2 scientists while letting the city grow on T71, and then switch back to the settler on T72. This feels inefficient because it leaves a newly-completed cottage unworked for 4 turns, but it gets us a great scientist in only 9 turns(T77), which I think is far more important. Quesadilla could grow again to size6 on T75 after the whip anger runs out, and I think complete the settler on T79.

Yes, both Quesadilla and Enchilada have libraries as of T67. We should have math in roughly 8turns, so T76.

The new chariot from Enchilada is heading west toward the barb city and Carne Asada will have an axeman done next turn, with a chariot following right after. If we are even moderately lucky, that means barb city captured T71.

Land Area: It says 53/1578.
Demos are looking much better now:

[RefSteel]

I think I want to work on a barracks next turn to let it grow, then 3pop whip the settler T70.

Triple-whipping a Settler in a high-food citiy with a granary is definitely a good thing; I support this.

However, I think its better to run 2 scientists while letting the city grow on T71, and then switch back to the settler on T72. This feels inefficient because it leaves a newly-completed cottage unworked for 4 turns, but it gets us a great scientist in only 9 turns(T77), which I think is far more important.

I agree about the importance of the Great Scientist! I'll note that we can still get the GS if we run two scientists for 8 of the 9 turns and just one scientist on the other turn, so if there's one turn that's better than another for working the cottage (maybe on the turn we'll be growing anyway just to get more food in the bin, or the turn before we connect Ivory if growth would otherwise be delayed longer than that?) we could make that our lone single-scientist turn if you like.

Quesadilla could grow again to size6 on T75 after the whip anger runs out, and I think complete the settler on T79.

This feels like it could be improved - we're turning a lot of food into hammers this way at 1:1, when we can do a lot better with granary whips. Since lime green dot is likely to steal one of the corn tiles when it's founded T72 or T73, I'd actually recommend letting Quesadilla grow until then, while still working its scientists, even if it grows into unhappiness - and even when it is unhappy! - as long as it's making at least 4 net food per turn. Then when Quesadilla reaches size 6, by which time I believe lime green dot should be planted, we can resume the Settler and whip it. (If it's a triple whip, we can drop the cottage for a turn, then pick it up again, making that our one single-scientist turn, as we start to regrow - although this isn't even mentalsimming; it's sheer guesswork without knowing how much food or how many hammers the city has invested already.)

Of course, by that point we're definitely going to be short on Workers again....

The new chariot from Enchilada is heading west toward the barb city and Carne Asada will have an axeman done next turn, with a chariot following right after. If we are even moderately lucky, that means barb city captured T71.

Cool - good luck with it!

Land Area: It says 53/1578.

Okay, so that's about 175 land tiles per player, including peaks, deserts, and islands. We've got a ways to go yet before we've claimed our "fair share."

Demos are looking much better now:

Excellent; those libraries really help when research is turned on! The above-average crop yield and mfg are especially good to see though - if this is what it looks like while we're working two scientists, all the better!