Random questions

[Nelphine]

By mattering, i meant that old school buffs like giant strength that gave +1 to attack, actually work with buff strategies - but ONLY when you're good at using buffs on the right target and in large quantities. If it weren't for every individual buff needing to matter as I explained, then you could reduce buff power overall by making each one worse, and then reducing dispel effectiveness. But that doesn't work when each buff has to matter individually.

I said chaos because death can steal buffs life has buffs, sorcery has other dispel boosts like dispelling wave. So either chaos or nature. Of the two I think it would suit chaos more. I don't want to give them dispelling wave, rather take a weak spell and give it the dusoel boost aether binding currently has. What spel? No idea. Nothing really comes to mind as needing it, and even if one did, I'm inclined to agree that chaos doesn't actually want it due to fun play. But, I don't think its good in sorcery either.

[MrBiscuits]

Btw Sorcery being the realm with dispel is exactly what makes it not that much of a gamble. Sorcery wizards have a weak early and midgame. You can usually annihilate them before others and in fact you should, if they reach endgame they'll do a lot more troublesome things than just dispelling. Yes, if the Myrran wizard is mono sorcery, too bad for you. Except, not really. If you are heavily buffing and it's the only way you can win, it means you play Life. If you play Life, you have access to Myrror in the early game. It's your responsibility to find out they are playing heavy Sorcery there and if they do, plan for invading Myrror early - best way to beat an early sorcery wizard is a good hero with a True Sight item. (you can't rely on nonitem buffs and Myrran units are probably better than yours without buffing and you can't summon good creature with monolife - you can if you add 2-3 other books though.)

(yes, I know, it's easier said then done, sometimes there are multiple wizards you want to get rid of early, but this sort of randomness keeps the game interesting)

The thing is with random wizards you rarely got mono-sorcery. In my current game Horus has 5 life and 5 sorcery so he was strong at the start as well. You can get dispelling wave with just 2 books (I traded for it and I have just two).

Early sorcery has confusion which I think is one of the most cost effective spells for the whole game. Army of 8 bersekers can be reduced to 4 with just two castings of confusion. Attack stacks of units with a spearman a few times and cast confusion a couple of times each battle to take out a stack. And focus magic is one of the best buffs too.

Actually this game I was playing 2 books of each realm and I've got buffs with chaos (flame blade), nature (resist elements), sorcery (focus magic) and of course life. 

It is also worth mentioning that normally in each game Divine Order is cast at least twice possibly three times so a summoning game is not as viable late on either. So it is either a free win for buffing wizards or not if there is dispelling wave in play. 

My main problem is the futility of it all rather than there being a counter to buffing. A major game mechanic is buffing units and dispelling wave just makes is pretty much useless as a strategy. It also creates a huge amount of unnecessary micro-managing.

How's about having a curse that when effective stops all buffs on a unit from working? Arcane magic can get that spell and sorcery the spell that effects all units. There is also protection against it which is resistance and you can give it a very high spell save (say -8). It means that if you manage to win a battle then all your buffs aren't removed which is the most annoying thing ever but there is still an effective counter against buffing units. It would also stop it being so random.

Edit: So in my current game I decide to concentrate on taking out the non-sorcery wizard first and just as I get to their fortress with my buffed stack Torus casts dispelling wave on my stack. Now I could spend 10 minutes going through each unit and adding the important missing buffs, but I really just can't bring myself to do it again as it took ages. It's more an annoyance than a hindrance to winning that game.

[Seravy]

How's about having a curse that when effective stops all buffs on a unit from working?

I can't do that.

Arcane magic can get that spell

Which existing Arcane spell would you remove from the game to add a new one?

sorcery the spell that effects all units.

Dispelling wave cursing units instead of dispelling? That would be weird as hell. And what about the overland effect.
Can't remove dispelling wave - it's the only thing to remove city enchantments and combat global enchantments in the game.

...dispelling has already been massively nerfed compared to the original game. Any further and buffing strategies will the the only thing worth playing.
If you want to play a buffing strategy AND be 100% sure to win that way then :
-pick specialist in your primary color for double resistance
-pick runemaster for +150% resistance on all spells
-pick sorcery and use spell lock
-maintain peace with the wizards who have dispelling wave, and surprise attack their capital

Alternatively, suggest a new formula/algorithm for AI chance of using Dispelling Wave in and outside of combat, if you still can't deal with it using all of the above.

[MrBiscuits]

I can't do that.

Fair enough, it sounds quite difficult.

Which existing Arcane spell would you remove from the game to add a new one?

Well I guess it would need to be dispell as it would be replacing its utility.

Dispelling wave cursing units instead of dispelling? That would be weird as hell. And what about the overland effect.

I sort of meant replace dispelling wave with a new spell. I hate the overland effect :D

...dispelling has already been massively nerfed compared to the original game. Any further and buffing strategies will the the only thing worth playing.
If you want to play a buffing strategy AND be 100% sure to win that way then

Has it? I didn't really play the original all that much to be honest.

It's not so much that I want to be sure to win, I just find the whole dispelling wave mechanic so frustrating.  

-pick specialist in your primary color for double resistance

This is good advice, but it stops multi-realm buff strategies which are great fun.

-pick runemaster for +150% resistance on all spells

I should do really. I just find runemaster isn't the most fun retort and it is two picks. Losing the chance to use loads of really cool and interesting strategies to just prevent dispelling doesn't seem like much fun.

-pick sorcery and use spell lock

I guess so, but sorcery doesn't have the best buffs.

-maintain peace with the wizards who have dispelling wave, and surprise attack their capital

This seems to be the best strategy. I am terrible at maintaining peace as soon as I start to do well all the other wizards attack me all at once.

[MrBiscuits]

Alternatively, suggest a new formula/algorithm for AI chance of using Dispelling Wave in and outside of combat, if you still can't deal with it using all of the above.

Oh I forgot to reply to the most important part of the post. Well I think inside combat it should be less effective the more enemy units it is cast on like wave of despair. Also the more buffs a unit has then the less effective each one becomes. 

The same could apply to the overland version.

[Seravy]

Has it? I didn't really play the original all that much to be honest.

In the original, "Dispelling Wave" was in Arcane named Disenchant Area, had twice the power in combat compared to CoM's, and the max cost of it was 250, not 125. So the potential highest effect was 4 times the current.
On top of that, there was Disenchant True in sorcery which did all that with a "triple effectiveness" modifier.
Runemasters still had double dispel power as well (multiplicative with the above effect), but the retort had a cost of 1 pick only and gave no dispel resistance (you needed Archmage for that, making that retort overpowered, not that a double resistance was enough against strength 750 dispels.)

This seems to be the best strategy. I am terrible at maintaining peace as soon as I start to do well all the other wizards attack me all at once.

The diplomacy changes in EXP10 should improve that massively.

Oh I forgot to reply to the most important part of the post. Well I think inside combat it should be less effective the more enemy units it is cast on like wave of despair. Also the more buffs a unit has then the less effective each one becomes. 

The same could apply to the overland version.

That would be...really hard to do. And would also make the spell do the opposite of what it is meant to do.
Dispelling Wave is a counter to buffing strategies because it becomes more effective on a larger number of spells.  Maybe this effectiveness scales up a bit too much but...speaking of buffing strategies.
If you fight an enemy with dispelling, you always have the option to only use the most essential buffs. Like, you attack with an army of 2 archangels and 7 normal units. Put Invulnerability and maybe Endurance on the Archangels. Don't buff the normal units. The AI either won't dispel, or doing so would be a bad play from it. And you still have the invincible Archangel. Likewise, have 1 paladin and 8 pikemen? Buff the Paladin only, and use your most powerful 2, maybe 3 buffs. Yes, the all-buffed doomstack tactic is out, but Sorcery doesn't have anything to improve military power so wizards having at least half Sorcery can usually be beaten without that doomstack.

The thing is, Dispelling Wave or Dispel Magic doesn't counter any and all buffs. They are not cost-effective to use on a few buffs. You can still use your buffing spells. But you can't put all of them in one unit or stack. You have to pick the best one(s). Exceptions exist  : if the wizard is both a Runemaster and has AEther Binding and Dispelling Wave, you probably shouldn't bother with any buffs, but that's a rare case.

And another - there is a form of buffing in the game that can't be dispelled : create artifact. Heroes with artifacts is the way to go against sorcery wizards. (You have to make the items in advance though, otherwise they just get spell blasted.) Speaking of which, see : http://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=8911

I guess so, but sorcery doesn't have the best buffs.

It's the second best. You have Invisibility, Flight, Focus Magic, Resist Magic, Magic Immunity...

[Nelphine]

Actually, I find the AI really enjoys casting dispel when my archangels have only endurance and invulnerability. If they only have endurance, then dispel is very rare (sixth spell? So depending on fight doesn't happen?), and if they only have invulnerability then dispel is .. The third spell? So uncommon, but still practically guaranteed. (This is with aether binding but no runemaster.)

Maybe they are still using it too often if that isn't expected?

[Seravy]

Actually, I find the AI really enjoys casting dispel when my archangels have only endurance and invulnerability. If they only have endurance, then dispel is very rare (sixth spell? So depending on fight doesn't happen?), and if they only have invulnerability then dispel is .. The third spell? So uncommon, but still practically guaranteed. (This is with aether binding but no runemaster.)

Maybe they are still using it too often if that isn't expected?

Based on the major difference between those two cases , I have to assume the Archangel is alone, so the AI won't find targets for its direct damage spells (as the archangel would not take enough damage to be worth targeting with Invulnerability on it), or something like that. It really depends on what they know and what the combat state is.
Just because dispelling is low priority doesn't mean it won't be used if everything else is even worse.

...or you have the Archangel so early the AI doesn't have good spells to cast instead of dispelling yet.

[MrBiscuits]

In the original, "Dispelling Wave" was in Arcane named Disenchant Area, had twice the power in combat compared to CoM's, and the max cost of it was 250, not 125. So the potential highest effect was 4 times the current.
On top of that, there was Disenchant True in sorcery which did all that with a "triple effectiveness" modifier.
Runemasters still had double dispel power as well (multiplicative with the above effect), but the retort had a cost of 1 pick only and gave no dispel resistance (you needed Archmage for that, making that retort overpowered, not that a double resistance was enough against strength 750 dispels.)

Well that sounded way worse, glad you've changed that. Did Disenchant Area work on all your units before in battle?

The diplomacy changes in EXP10 should improve that massively.

Nice one. Actually I'm playing EXP10 at the moment and it does seem better, but I'm still no good at the diplomacy side of things.

That would be...really hard to do. And would also make the spell do the opposite of what it is meant to do.

Dispelling wave could still be more cost effective on more units, but just not quite as good at dispelling as casting on less units. Maybe a formula like 5/(4 + number units) or something.

The hard bit would be the number of enchantments the unit has I guess?

And another - there is a form of buffing in the game that can't be dispelled : create artifact. Heroes with artifacts is the way to go against sorcery wizards. (You have to make the items in advance though, otherwise they just get spell blasted.)

Excellent point that I hadn't thought of. I've been trying to cut down on my hero addiction recently and been trying to win with normal units.

It's the second best. You have Invisibility, Flight, Focus Magic, Resist Magic, Magic Immunity...

Yeah it probably does thinking about it, although it doesn't really make units do more damage which I find is the limiting factor late game. 
Does magic immunity prevent dispelling? I guess not as that would be game breaking.

[Seravy]

[quote pid='644114' dateline='1503234889']
Yeah it probably does thinking about it, although it doesn't really make units do more damage which I find is the limiting factor late game. 
Does magic immunity prevent dispelling? I guess not as that would be game breaking.
[/quote]

Correct, it doesn't.