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[Spoilers] Chevalier Gives You Something to Cry Aboot

I've been thinking about this start and with not much going on right now, this seems like a good moment to toss out some theorycrafting. For starters, I don't think that putting a second city to the west of the rice would be a good idea. Everything over there seems to be either desert or flatground, and flatground grassland and plains tiles are almost as useless in Civ6 as desert tiles. There's no way to improve production until planting forests comes online at Conservation civic and no cottages to be added as in Civ4. Flatground with no forest or jungle = useless.

In contrast, the more that I think about the non-river plains hill tile where the scout was standing on Turn 14, the more that I like the spot. Yes, it's crippled by a lack of housing but it has by far the best collection of tiles in this immediate area near the start. Those hills over by the Rocky Mountains and the potential to put Campus districts nearby for their adjacency bonuses are just way better than anywhere else that an early settler could go. So let's theorycraft this out, shall we? A city on the non-river plains hill tile would start with 2 housing, which would mean that it gets -50% growth at size 1. Ouch! There is a way to work around this, however: purchase a builder in the second city immediately, farm the local rice and then assign the horses tile northeast of the capital to the new city and pasture it. The farm + pasture combination grants another point of housing and that gets the new city to size 2 without penalty. Then the city hits the housing penalty again at size 2, but at size 2 it can work the horses pasture and the 1/3 forested plains hill tile for a total of 2 (horses) + 3 (hill) + 2 (center tile) + 1 (Urban Planning) = 8 production/turn. And that's honestly good enough to start the game! From there, the city has enough production to build a granary for +2 housing (enough to get to size 4) and that's enough for the second district and the rest of the early game. Later the city builds an aqueduct for +4 housing and that gets it to size 8, which is plenty for the rest of the game.

The non-river spot is significantly better in the long run, once it can solve the housing problem, because it has so much more production available. It also saves a lot of money on tile purchases by virtue of being closer to the mountain range. This is how I'd plan out the area with that city spot:

[Image: PBEM18-1.jpg]

The crucial early advantage of this spot is the unlocking the double 1/3 plains hill tiles right away. With any luck, the cultural tile picker will choose the second 1/3 plains hill tile (the one with the "Cam" sign on it above) for the first tile culturally acquired, thereby saving the need to spend any gold on that tile at all. Then the only tiles needed to be purchased would be the Government Plaza (second ring for the new city) and the Campus district spot for the capital. Two total tile purchases; the horses will be grabbed by the capital and the Commercial district spot won't be needed for ages down the road. Under this plan, the capital builds the Government Plaza as its first district (skipping the State Workforce boost) and then grabs the Campus spot as its second district, as there won't be enough money to purchase over there until a little bit later. This setup is also heavily leaning on God of the Open Sky to provide a surge of early culture to power through State Workforce without the boost, and also relies on a builder purchase immediately in the second city upon founding. If going this route, do *NOT* improve the rice tile at the capital because the Irrigation boost would come from farming the rice at the second city. Instead, the initial builder improves horses, sheep, sheep and plans on leaning on God of the Open Sky along with the cultural city state for massive early game cultural output. The second builder would improve rice at the second city, horses, and then the wines tile at the capital for happiness. This provides exactly enough improved tiles for the two cities to make it through the early stages of the game, and the early Government Plaza plus huge cultural output from Cultural city state + God of the Open Sky on four plantations gets a fast triple-promoted Pingala to accelerate through the first techs/civics.

Note that there's a lot of "ifs" in there! lol As I said, this setup really needs God of the Open Sky for maximum efficiency, plus the immediate builder purchase, plus some tight city micro. Still, I think it comes out ahead with a strong second city site that has a lot of production and a great long term setup where the two Campus districts get +3 and +4 beaker adjacencies. By contrast, here's how things might look by settling on the rice:

[Image: PBEM18-2.jpg]

I mean, this certainly isn't terrible or anything like that. The Campus district spot is now out in the third ring and costs a bit more gold to purchase over there. More significantly, the city has traded two hill tiles in the first ring for two desert tiles in the first ring, and that's a bad trade indeed. If the cultural tile picker doesn't grab the 1/3 forested plains hill tile with the initial acquisition, this city is almost useless out of the gate. It can take the horses tile over from the capital and after that, uh... what does it do exactly? We don't really want to sink an early builder charge into mining a non-resource hill tile if we can avoid it. I dunno, am I crazy for thinking all of this? It just feels like housing is an issue we can work around whereas having bad local terrain is mostly unsolvable. What do the rest of you think?

[Image: PBEM1-393.jpg]

One last note here: I remember all the way back to PBEM1 when TheArchduke founded this city which wasn't on fresh water. I thought initial that it was a total junk city for lack of housing but I was wrong - Arpinum was actually pretty darn good! The PBEM1 map was very low on production and this spot was a solid city contributor because it had actual hill tiles and a horse resource that could be improved, not just a bunch of flatground tiles. The lesson for me was that cities don't need to be particularly large to be useful in Civ6. If they can make size 7 before the end of the game and get the third district out, that seems to be plenty. Food for thought.
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Just popping in to say thank you for the detailed uploads Chevalier, and the interesting discussions with the dedlurkers.
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Turn 16

We maybe should pinkdot this and jump to the NE.

   

Taking care of barbs. More comments later.

   
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The terrain up there to the north is vastly better, great news for the long run. But that jungle belt is 10-12 tiles away from the capital and that's too far for a second city. Just like in Civ4, the Civ6 early game accelerates much faster with a nearby city that can share some tiles and pick up adjacency bonuses from the Government Plaza. I'll hold off on posting any more thoughts until Chevalier has a chance to respond to some of the earlier discussion in this thread - hope that things haven't been too crazy lately over there.
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@ Sullla and citysites:

Well, it is refreshing to see that even back in PBEM #1 I did not do everything wrong.wink

In any case, I second the idea of the no-fresh-water city to the NE. I am very loathe to advocate such a position but it is a push into the direct direction as I think we need to expand into the jungle NE almost immeaditly.
Loosing the rice tile hurts a lot as well and let´s not forget, the city is in a better defensive position on a hill and hast the inherent +1 hammer.

I would be very tempted to pinkdot to the NE, but we miss an escort for that and thus would delay further. What I do think is that we need to aggressively push NE with another city.

Also with 2 horses, there is a point to be made for a super-quick Horseman push to wreck someone´s day. Once again, I think we need to conquer something to win this with Canada.
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Hey guys. Sorry for long time no post. My school has hit a wave of testing and, coupled with my increasingly busy social life, it's harder to find time during the week to write. I played turn 16 and best I can figure I logged out before the upload completed like a doofus - I had no idea until I logged in the next day and it showed my most recent turn was just a few hours before.

I'm also kind of intrigued by Sullla's dry city #2 plan. It seems to fly in the face of conventional wisdom, but...well, we're Canada, and we have a very difficult start. Thinking inside the box seems like a solid way to play ourselves into irrelevance, unless everyone has a challenge start like we do. I'm inclined to give it a try, if nothing else as a field test to see if dry cities are viable in the classical era.
I Think I'm Gwangju Like It Here

A blog about my adventures in Korea, and whatever else I feel like writing about.
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Turn17 is due as well. I think.

Maybe you want me do the normal turns until things stabilize on your end?
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Turn 17

Typing this post from the Gwangju bus terminal. Lots of people hurrying around me - all in masks, of course (why are Americans so anti-mask? It's a mystery to me). I've got one, too, but I wear it so often here and it's so comfortable that I don't even notice it most of the time. I've tried to drink coffee without taking off the mask first on more than one occasion. I've got a nice seat on a bench with a good cup of Ediya caramel macchiato and a toasted bagel next to me, and it's fun to people watch all the travelers, businessmen, ajummas and ajeossis, and lots of soldiers. Anyway, my network connection is spotty but I have 40 minutes before the bus to Yeosu leaves and I have my SSD with my images on it, so let's give this a shot. Maybe imgur will work for my Chromebook and not a proper Korean PC.




Neat! It does work. Coolcoolcool.

So the warrior is still putting in work down south. He has now wiped out 3 barbarians and presumably the tundra silk forest he defends, the only pass between the Fraser River and the Nameless Mountains, is soaked in blood and the skulls of our enemies as we have held this land for generations. I keep him fortified in place as there's another customer come to fling himself over the ramparts built from the bodies of his own dead comrades. I think this warrior - #4, yeah? - should be the last or second-to-last from the surge and we can clear the camp soon. 

Note that we still have 0 era points. A Dark Age won't be much good to us, but a Heroic Medieval Age is a possibility (unfortunately the medieval age is also, on average, the shortest of all ages in a typical game. whaddayagonnado). 

Further north, I cross the scout over the river to the jungle hill, but the view is blocked by mountains and we don't find anything interesting on any of the radars. I also take the time to pin in the two initial city plans, both Wet Kings and Dry Kings:




You all know I'm a sucker for the unconventional play, so I like the Dry Kings idea. If we continue to save our gold, we should be close to affording a builder soon after we settle the city - I haven't done the precise math - so that'll be a nice snowball to get started. We'll also be absolutely rolling in culture IF we land GotOS. Woden alone can beat us there, by my calculations, but it's also a high-demand pantheon, so it all depends on Woden's start. 

Anyway, right now I think:

1)Keep scouting north and east
2)Keep the warrior fortified until we can safely march on and eliminate the camp.
3)Send our first settler to Dry Kings, purchase builder and begin farm/pasture improvements.
4)Work on more military at home until State Workforce comes in - use Craftsmanship completion to swap into Agoge and crank out I think another warrior, but a slinger might make more sense with the timeline. 
5)Pantheon should be in next turn - God of the Open Sky if possible, Goddess of Festivals (plantation culture) if not, we should be #2 so both of those should be available. If neither is, well, pick whatever you deem best. Maybe Fertility Rites would make sense to snowball Dry Kings? I dunno. Hopefully it doesn't matter.

Things to decide include whether we should Pink Dot into the jungle belt, if we should wait for the ancestral hall first, and what our cities should build in the meantime (Granary at Dry Kings? Warrior/Slinger at Blues?)

Scorewise, it looks like sub and possibly Kaiser have settlers on the map, since their empire scores are lower than the rest of us. Kaiser also leads in culture despite trailing in pop, so he's met a Cultural State. Woden finished his first tech - Astrology? Nothing else notable.
I Think I'm Gwangju Like It Here

A blog about my adventures in Korea, and whatever else I feel like writing about.
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You were online 2 hours ago, turn is up 4 hours, catching it due saturday.

Agree on everything except Ancestral Hall.

I think we are setup to do 1-2 campuses, get horses and wreck someone´s day quite nicely.
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Turn 18

Bad luck with a barbarian scout, relocating to the rice.

   


Nothing on settlervision.

   


I also went irrigation, please tell me if that should be changed.


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