WW 18 Siege of the Dragon! (Game Thread)

[Serdoa]

1. Why did you choose MJW and Rowain for your scries?

They seemed reasonable enough? You don't think they were worth the scan?

I don't think they were the best scan targets to take. Especially MJW. Thats what I told Bigger already the last day and I tell you as well. It is hard to believe that from all players alive on Day1 as a villager who can "color scan" you would choose MJW, instead of say zakalwe. Or Ichabod. Pindicator. Uberfish.

Also, I think you were told by Bigger that he scanned MJW, because see, he told us that MJW is a void demon and hey, what word do I see used in that sentence above? "void". I thought that already even before the kill, as soon as Bigger mentioned it the first time.

It was in fact, another attempt at getting the dark thing in play. I definitely didn't know about the void in the role. They're just synonymous.

Checked that as English is not my first language and at least the Thesaurus does not agree with that. If it would be void as the scan and you put dark I would probably already be surprised. But the other way round, from dark to void? I leave that to others to consider, but I can't believe that.

[Selrahc]

1. You write I plan to speak with the other scum after eliminiating the hunters. If that would be true, we would not have a 2-1-1 endgame. Because without Hunters only Wolf and Dragon are left, both taking their night-kill on a villager leads to a 1-1-1 endgame. Or if the Hunter can still kill before he dies, a 1-1 after the night. In both cases, it would be in the end a draw between wolf and dragon. And I don't consider a draw a win. I stated that in another game already.

It doesn't end in a draw, if you really do have protection against wolf night kills. It ends in you winning. Since you've already said you have protection against wolf night kills, the pieces really fall into place from there don't they? If the hunter doesn't get the kill after being killed, then you'll be forced to fight in a 1-1-1 endgame. But that still gives you decent odds to win. If you could convince either side.

Selrahc, first you didn't answer several questions I'd really like an answer too. And I guess I am not the only one. But apart from that, the above is wrong. I stated that I can protect the village from wolves.

Yes. That's all you *stated*. As a suspect for dragon, I'm not working under the assumption that you're always going to be truthful. Even as a villager, what would you gain from revealing that you were immune to day-kills from the Hunters? You'd be wanting to bait them into wasting their kill on you.

So, you've stated you had protective abilities. I'm taking that as a hint that you may have wider protective abilities than stated.


Suffice to say then, I think your play does make sense. You're convinced that the dragon literally can't win a 5-1 endgame, so you're playing it as a 3-1-1-1 endgame.You think you can come out on top of scum rumbles, because of protective powers. You're trying to establish village cred by pushing a lynch on somebody you think is scum, because offence is the best defence.



[quote]
I don't think they were the best scan targets to take. Especially MJW. Thats what I told Bigger already the last day and I tell you as well. It is hard to believe that from all players alive on Day1 as a villager who can "color scan" you would choose MJW, instead of say zakalwe. Or Ichabod. Pindicator. Uberfish.

I highly disagree that high profile people like Zakalwe and Uberfish are the best ones to scan. They're the ones most likely to be nightkilled. Why is it good to clear someone who is just going to die?

Checked that as English is not my first language and at least the Thesaurus does not agree with that.

If void and dark aren't associated, then why did I use dark at all? Why first?
I'm not sure what you're arguing there.

[Serdoa]

Selrahc, are you honestly telling me that you are mixing together DIFFERENT abilities I stated I know or suspect that DIFFERENT roles have into one, just to make me fit as Dragon? Hey, why not give me the assassinations when you are at it - and the poison kills too, waterbat surely is only my lackey who has to obey my every command.

Yeah, I am sleep deprived due to the shitty deadline, but quite honestly, even now I can see that you are just mixing everything wildly together, just to make something fit. And that is not something that village does. Of course, I am already certain that all 3 of you are scum (and that only waterbat is even remotely playing this as he should, you'll probably win waterbat, and you deserve it I'd say), but still that might help Mattimeo and Azza to draw their conclusions. The only reason I do still engage in these discussions tbh.

As for your other point about void and dark you quote:

Checked that as English is not my first language and at least the Thesaurus does not agree with that [using void as substitute for dark].

If void and dark aren't associated, then why did I use dark at all? Why first?
I'm not sure what you're arguing there.

But again Selrahc, you only quoted half of what I wrote to make it better fit your argument. I'm not sure why scum is so prone to do that, but I'm greatly annoyed by it. What I wrote was:

Checked that as English is not my first language and at least the Thesaurus does not agree with that. If it would be void as the scan and you put dark I would probably already be surprised. But the other way round, from dark to void? I leave that to others to consider, but I can't believe that.

As I said, if you heard void first, I would be surprised about dark. But I could see it. Especially in this situation.

You are looking for a way to tell us you are a seer Selrahc, because you hope a seer won't be lynched. But what you tell us means you are a seer who only gets dark and light as results and doesn't know what they even mean, but hasn't bothered to request explanation by Tasune nor is he interested in actually telling the village despite having a scum-tell with it from all we knew at that point he claims to have gotten his results - yeah, this role sounds absolutely believable given all the other roles we've seen so far... I guess you role is called "Seeker of not so much the truth"?.

@Azza + Mattimeo:

My current reads.

Rowain -> Hunter
Selrahc -> Wolf
waterbat -> Dragon

I know, I know, waterbat is unbelievable. But I hope can disucss this in detail tomorrow and that you will agree that we should lynch Rowain today, hoping that his assassination won't work when he is lynched. But if it does he will certainly kill me. So I think that's looking at it from your knowledge the best result you can get.

[Rowain]

Serdoa you are totally hanging yourself up on your theory that the Hunter and Assassin are the same. You aknowledge that a poison Arrow dragon makes little sense. I'm sure you can agree that a faction that, if you are correct, has 3 members can daykilll and nightkill at will is bit strange too.


Furthermore: Lynching me does not prevent me to assassinate. You can ask Tasunke in private or we can ask him publicty (and yes I did ask him on day1 right after I got my role).


@Azza & Mattimeo: The decision whom to lynch is yours: If you believe in a 5-1 scenario I think Selrahc or Serdoa are both good choices. Do note that all Seroda has done to deflect him beeing the sole-Dragon is talking about as if the Dragon knew that he were alone. He even goes sofar to neglect parts of posts like in his discussion with Selrahc:

Correct, in the example Rowain gave (5-1) I argued like that. Wouldn't make sense to make it differently right, as the initial situation we talk about is the outlined 5-1 from Rowain. I mean I also argued what I would do as Dragon, though I know I am not the Dragon.

No I didn't: I said explicitly:

- case 2: Dragon Serdoa: possible. Todays play high risk move to win. Perhaps he really believed that there is more scum here and he tried to get their help.

If you believe a 3-1-1-1 then decide between a scenario: A) where we have a Dragon with poison arrows. a team WW without any special abilities except those that Serdoa does hint at but can't reveal. And a team Hunter who can freely kill at day and night but do play absolutly weird by not assassinating Azza or slowcheetah or B) where we have a Dragon who wants to trick the village into lynching a villager a Hunter with poison attacks and arrows and a WW.

Serdoa has sofar not been able to give any reasonable explanation why a Hunter-Assaassin did not kill Azza or slowcheetah.

[Serdoa]

Serdoa you are totally hanging yourself up on your theory that the Hunter and Assassin are the same. You aknowledge that a poison Arrow dragon makes little sense. I'm sure you can agree that a faction that, if you are correct, has 3 members can daykilll and nightkill at will is bit strange too.

Yes, all those roles are a bit strange. Have you ever read Sherlock Holmes? No matter how strange something appears, if there is no other explanation, it has to be the truth. So, I'm not sure what you guys (Selrahc and you) try to prove. That I am the Dragon and came up with ridiculous claims that can easily be countered, nonwithstanding the fact that I am known for making good cases? Your only explanation is that I screwed up, but I had so much time, that quite honestly, if I were a scum, I could have come up with something much better. And I think everyone should know that. Yes, I feel personally degraded by your insinuation that I am too dumb to come up with a better story. Matter of the fact is, I could easily, but it would not be the truth and as villager, that is all I have.

Furthermore: Lynching me does not prevent me to assassinate. You can ask Tasunke in private or we can ask him publicty (and yes I did ask him on day1 right after I got my role).

Than if you are a villager as you claim, you can assassinate me at the end of the day when you get lynched.

@Azza & Mattimeo: The decision whom to lynch is yours: If you believe in a 5-1 scenario I think Selrahc or Serdoa are both good choices. Do note that all Seroda has done to deflect him beeing the sole-Dragon is talking about as if the Dragon knew that he were alone. He even goes sofar to neglect parts of posts like in his discussion with Selrahc:

Correct, in the example Rowain gave (5-1) I argued like that. Wouldn't make sense to make it differently right, as the initial situation we talk about is the outlined 5-1 from Rowain. I mean I also argued what I would do as Dragon, though I know I am not the Dragon.

No I didn't: I said explicitly:

- case 2: Dragon Serdoa: possible. Todays play high risk move to win. Perhaps he really believed that there is more scum here and he tried to get their help.

That is not true Rowain. I have at the start already explained why I make no sense as Dragon. I write it down another time: IF I am the Dragon and there are 2 other scum still around, I have to keep my mouth shut as this play will get me killed anyhow. You stated yourself that you can assassinate me. It makes no sense at all for the Dragon to speak in this situation. Especially not without being attacked at all.

If you believe a 3-1-1-1 then decide between a scenario: A) where we have a Dragon with poison arrows. a team WW without any special abilities except those that Serdoa does hint at but can't reveal. And a team Hunter who can freely kill at day and night but do play absolutly weird by not assassinating Azza or slowcheetah or B) where we have a Dragon who wants to trick the village into lynching a villager a Hunter with poison attacks and arrows and a WW.

B) Sounds interesting. Explain again why I do that as Dragon please. Why not just providing reason to lynch you just for your play? There is enough there. Or Selrahc, nearly silent till now. Waterbat, who already had several times suspicion voiced against him. That would all be easier than that what I have done. Just make a case as I did it with Mattimeo last game. MUCH easier than my play.

Serdoa has sofar not been able to give any reasonable explanation why a Hunter-Assaassin did not kill Azza or slowcheetah.

Not that I think I need to understand the thinking of the scum in all ins and outs and that that should be a criteria to lynch me, but actually I provided one. I stated that you needed to kill the Dragon and that was the reason you choose Bigger on D2. On D1 with novice, you guys might not have realized yourself that you need to kill the Dragon this way. Or maybe you didn't even believe Bigger was the Dragon and just wanted to get rid of a player who seemed like a strong villager + mayor (so basically the same role as azza) + seer kind of type. Yeah, wouldn't that be a perfect explanation?

[Serdoa]

Oh, and btw, I finished my work in time

[Rowain]

Yes, all those roles are a bit strange. Have you ever read Sherlock Holmes? No matter how strange something appears, if there is no other explanation, it has to be the truth.

But there are other explanations: One is you are the Dragon another is Selrahc is the Dragon for example and there are no other scums alive.

Furthermore: Lynching me does not prevent me to assassinate. You can ask Tasunke in private or we can ask him publicty (and yes I did ask him on day1 right after I got my role).

Than if you are a villager as you claim, you can assassinate me at the end of the day when you get lynched.

Do you believe my statement or not? If you believe it then your offer makes no sense as a villager.

That is not true Rowain. I have at the start already explained why I make no sense as Dragon. I write it down another time: IF I am the Dragon and there are 2 other scum still around, I have to keep my mouth shut as this play will get me killed anyhow. You stated yourself that you can assassinate me. It makes no sense at all for the Dragon to speak in this situation. Especially not without being attacked at all.

It does. You explicitly asked for a team up with the Hunter+Assassin. You did not ask your presumed Dragon+poison arrow shooter. you did not ask the WW with their mysterious ability. You explicitly talked only to me for your strange plan. If you were a villager and sure of your theory you would simle vote with Azza and Mattimeo and not make a huge post about it. You try hard to get rid of the one danger to your scales.

B) Sounds interesting. Explain again why I do that as Dragon please. Why not just providing reason to lynch you just for your play? There is enough there. Or Selrahc, nearly silent till now. Waterbat, who already had several times suspicion voiced against him. That would all be easier than that what I have done. Just make a case as I did it with Mattimeo last game. MUCH easier than my play.

As Dragon? Because you fear the Daggers. Afterall you are nightkill immune as announced several times already.

Serdoa has sofar not been able to give any reasonable explanation why a Hunter-Assaassin did not kill Azza or slowcheetah.

Not that I think I need to understand the thinking of the scum in all ins and outs and that that should be a criteria to lynch me, but actually I provided one. I stated that you needed to kill the Dragon and that was the reason you choose Bigger on D2. On D1 with novice, you guys might not have realized yourself that you need to kill the Dragon this way. Or maybe you didn't even believe Bigger was the Dragon and just wanted to get rid of a player who seemed like a strong villager + mayor (so basically the same role as azza) + seer kind of type. Yeah, wouldn't that be a perfect explanation?

Bigger a strong player? He got nearly lynched before everybody decided to jump on Lewwyn. So he was lynch material already. And tell me why a scum assassin lets slowcheetah live. I also want to point that Lewwyn had a revenge strike too.

Doesn't it trigger you odd that the Hunters should be able to nightkill, daykill and have another kill up there sleeves as well??
I see 2 possibilities. You either know that I'm right and naturally can't accept that (in which case I hope Azza & Matt see itt) or you are so in love with your theory that you can't accept any alternates no matter that they are more probable.

[waterbat]

Speaking of Azza and Matt, what are your thoughts? I know that being confirmed village takes the pressure off, but please don't disengage!

@Rowain: you make a lot of sense. They probably can't reveal, but maybe Matt and azza have some ability which makes them more able to stand up vs. the dragon or vs. the hunter in the coming days/nights. I'm equally vulnerable, but would prefer to get the dragon since the hunter can possibly pre-empt him before tonight.

Serdoa

[Serdoa]

Yes, all those roles are a bit strange. Have you ever read Sherlock Holmes? No matter how strange something appears, if there is no other explanation, it has to be the truth.

But there are other explanations: One is you are the Dragon another is Selrahc is the Dragon for example and there are no other scums alive.

Well, I know that I am not the Dragon. True, you can't know that, but I do, so obviously I know that that is not the truth. As for Selrahc being the Dragon and no other scum around: If that is the case, village will win, even if we kill each other today.

Furthermore: Lynching me does not prevent me to assassinate. You can ask Tasunke in private or we can ask him publicty (and yes I did ask him on day1 right after I got my role).

Than if you are a villager as you claim, you can assassinate me at the end of the day when you get lynched.

Do you believe my statement or not? If you believe it then your offer makes no sense as a villager.

Oh, but it does. I don't play for my survival Rowain, I play for the win of the village. If I can make them win, by lynching you and subsequently being killed by you, thats fine for me. Either only Selrahc is left as scum at that point, then it will be 2-1 at day and they lynch him. Or waterbat and Selrahc are scum, but then we are again at the point were a 1-3-3-9 setup is most likely. And as I know I am village that means you are scum, so at least by dying I'll take one of you with me.

That is not true Rowain. I have at the start already explained why I make no sense as Dragon. I write it down another time: IF I am the Dragon and there are 2 other scum still around, I have to keep my mouth shut as this play will get me killed anyhow. You stated yourself that you can assassinate me. It makes no sense at all for the Dragon to speak in this situation. Especially not without being attacked at all.

It does. You explicitly asked for a team up with the Hunter+Assassin. You did not ask your presumed Dragon+poison arrow shooter. you did not ask the WW with their mysterious ability. You explicitly talked only to me for your strange plan. If you were a villager and sure of your theory you would simle vote with Azza and Mattimeo and not make a huge post about it. You try hard to get rid of the one danger to your scales.

You are mixing up things chronologically Rowain. Not sure if by accident (we sure posted a lot) or with bad intentions. Anyhow, I asked for you explicitly to draw you out. Thats all there is to it, what I already explained.

B) Sounds interesting. Explain again why I do that as Dragon please. Why not just providing reason to lynch you just for your play? There is enough there. Or Selrahc, nearly silent till now. Waterbat, who already had several times suspicion voiced against him. That would all be easier than that what I have done. Just make a case as I did it with Mattimeo last game. MUCH easier than my play.

As Dragon? Because you fear the Daggers. Afterall you are nightkill immune as announced several times already.

And because IF I am the Dragon and I fear the daggers my best plan is to make up such a fuss and try to lynch the guy with the daggers because certainly that will not make him use them on me?

Serdoa has sofar not been able to give any reasonable explanation why a Hunter-Assaassin did not kill Azza or slowcheetah.

Not that I think I need to understand the thinking of the scum in all ins and outs and that that should be a criteria to lynch me, but actually I provided one. I stated that you needed to kill the Dragon and that was the reason you choose Bigger on D2. On D1 with novice, you guys might not have realized yourself that you need to kill the Dragon this way. Or maybe you didn't even believe Bigger was the Dragon and just wanted to get rid of a player who seemed like a strong villager + mayor (so basically the same role as azza) + seer kind of type. Yeah, wouldn't that be a perfect explanation?

Bigger a strong player? He got nearly lynched before everybody decided to jump on Lewwyn. So he was lynch material already. And tell me why a scum assassin lets slowcheetah live. I also want to point that Lewwyn had a revenge strike too.

Doesn't it trigger you odd that the Hunters should be able to nightkill, daykill and have another kill up there sleeves as well??
I see 2 possibilities. You either know that I'm right and naturally can't accept that (in which case I hope Azza & Matt see itt) or you are so in love with your theory that you can't accept any alternates no matter that they are more probable.

Bigger got votes so that he starts talking Rowain. I was the one doing the case on him. And HE was the one to get everybody to jump on Lewwyn. Lynch material? I think you overestimate yourself by far here Rowain. I'm not certain that even with my case from yesterday it would have been enough to get the other players to follow me to lynch him.

As for the revenge strike of Lewwyn: Isn't it curious that he used it on MJW? Searching for the Dragon - or why did he use it on MJW? Because that was the single-best target he could find? Did not YOU make the argument that Azza would have been so much better to lynch in that case?

As for your question: No it does indeed not trigger me odd (if that is even a sentence...). Because I have seen too many crazy powers in this game already. If you had told me that we have a Mason + Double Voter + x I would have told you that you are stupid. But apperantly that exists in this game.

I guess we can stop at this point. All this talk will not change anything of what we each believe and we start to go in circles (or do that already for the last 3 pages...).

[Serdoa]

Speaking of Azza and Matt, what are your thoughts? I know that being confirmed village takes the pressure off, but please don't disengage!

@Rowain: you make a lot of sense. They probably can't reveal, but maybe Matt and azza have some ability which makes them more able to stand up vs. the dragon or vs. the hunter in the coming days/nights. I'm equally vulnerable, but would prefer to get the dragon since the hunter can possibly pre-empt him before tonight.

Serdoa

Waterbat, you want to get the dragon because the dragon can be pre-empted by the hunter anyhow? What? Doesn't make much sense, let them duke it out on their own. Lynching the Dragon gives the Hunter the freedom to kill whomever he wants (probably a villager if he thought about what to do). So even if you would be right, it would still mean that the village should get the hunter. And we know that the hunter is Rowain, he admitted that he can assassinate and you yourself wrote

pre-empt him before tonight

so you believe too that our day-killer is the hunter = Rowain. Your whole logic in the above quote is flawed. And yeah, I know that is because you are the Dragon and want to get me as villager killed. But even in your best interest is actually to kill the Hunter before he can kill you with assassination.