WW 18 Siege of the Dragon! (Game Thread)

[waterbat]

Went back and looked at the day 1 free-for-all. I think Rowain's late switch might be telling.

at 21:55, vote stood at:
Waterbat(6) - mattimeo, Ichabod, qqqqq Nocive Zakelroy, Rowain
Qgqqqq (6) - Waterbat, Azza, Serdoa, uberfish Bogger, MJW
Mattimeo (2) - Selrahc, slowcheetah
Uberfish (1) - pindicator
Azza (1) – Lewwyn

But then slowcheetah switched onto Qgqqqqq. to make it 7-6

21:57 Rowain, seeing his partner going down, pops in the vote for Qgqqqq. I dont think a late switch as villager is Rowain's normal villager style. He's a rather stubborn fellow (and by that I mean adorable) and I'd expect him to stick on me in that situation - unless he thought he needed to switch to get some credit there. The question is - did he know that MJW was posting at the same time (21:57) to switch waterbat - Qgqqqqq ? I doubt it, so I think him as Qgqqqqq's teammate is very possible.

ok i seriously have to get back to work now

[Rowain]

21:57 Rowain, seeing his partner going down, pops in the vote for Qgqqqq. I dont think a late switch as villager is Rowain's normal villager style.

Huh. Are you drunk? I tried to switch to Bigger last game at the very last second and AFAIK I was villager then. You can also look through several games to realise that me switching at the last second is while not a given but did happen quite often.

[Rowain]

But you don't play as scum to make the village lose, you play to win for your faction. Logical fallacy.

Are you seriously proposing that not assassinating slowcheetah was a winning move in any way or form?

And to add, if scum works together, they still only have a draw. Betrayal seems inevitable.

For one we don't know what their victory conditions are. Or at least I don't know your knowledge may be deeper.
b) As you pointed out you want us to believe that the Dragon is nightkill-immune. So a betrayel by the other party seems hard to do and a betrayal by the Dragon is easily avoidable. Let the Dragon hit Azza and he either does his job or he gets lynched the next day
c) Sorry with 2 clear targets (azza & Mattimeo) its hard to believe that the scum won't coordinate. Especially as we don't know what extra powers they do have.
d) Why are you so eager to kill the one with the obsidian daggers Serdoa? Why won't you rather kill the Dragon? Do you fear them?

[Serdoa]

But you don't play as scum to make the village lose, you play to win for your faction. Logical fallacy.

Are you seriously proposing that not assassinating slowcheetah was a winning move in any way or form?

No, YOU stated that you would have made the village lose for certain if you had assassinated slowcheetah. I told you that you don't play to make to village lose, but to win yourself. So the question is not if not assassinating slowcheetah was a winning move, the question is if it was necessary in order to win. And quite obviously it was not, the village is even now on the brink of destruction, despite slowcheetah sacrificing himself for us.

And to add, if scum works together, they still only have a draw. Betrayal seems inevitable.

For one we don't know what their victory conditions are. Or at least I don't know your knowledge may be deeper.

Bullshit Rowain. What you imply here is that they win together. Why make different factions when they would win together?

b) As you pointed out you want us to believe that the Dragon is nightkill-immune.

No, but I see it as possible, being often the case for a SK.

So a betrayel by the other party seems hard to do and a betrayal by the Dragon is easily avoidable. Let the Dragon hit Azza and he either does his job or he gets lynched the next day

So now it is certain that the Dragon will live? But I thought you believe I am the Dragon and if you get lynched you will assassinate me certainly, no? Again you make no sense.

c) Sorry with 2 clear targets (azza & Mattimeo) its hard to believe that the scum won't coordinate. Especially as we don't know what extra powers they do have.

As we do not know which powers Azza and Mattimeo still hold. Also scum coordinated not often in these games, I think Bigger was the only one even ever trying it.

d) Why are you so eager to kill the one with the obsidian daggers Serdoa? Why won't you rather kill the Dragon? Do you fear them?

Because I believe you are the Hunter and therefore I want to lynch you because you seem to be able to kill in the day and in the night.

[waterbat]

21:57 Rowain, seeing his partner going down, pops in the vote for Qgqqqq. I dont think a late switch as villager is Rowain's normal villager style.

Huh. Are you drunk? I tried to switch to Bigger last game at the very last second and AFAIK I was villager then. You can also look through several games to realise that me switching at the last second is while not a given but did happen quite often.

heh true - i'm not drunk, but close to it as im still flu-bound - trying to work isnt going so well either.


and azza, matt, how to argue with Serdoa's:

Because I believe you are the Hunter and therefore I want to lynch you because you seem to be able to kill in the day and in the night.

I intimated this early on today, but was content on Serdoa because i was more sure of him as the dragon than I was of Rowain as the hunter. But when it comes down to it, we need to kill the person who can seemingly kill both day and night over the person who can kill just at night.

We can even be totally wrong and still win. If Rowain is innocent he can strike the dragon (5-1 setup). If he's a hunter, he can strike the dragon (3-1-1) and the 2-1 day tomorrow should be automatic. (i'll concede if Azza or Matt has managed to get confirmed status as scum, its automatic the other way)

If Rowain to spite the village decides not to strike or strikes incorrectly, we are in trouble in the resulting 3-1-1 [possible 1-1-1 going into last day] setup, but not lost at all in the 4-1 [3-1 into last day]


Rowain

3 hours to lynch, im not locked in here. If you (Azza and Matt) have more reason to fear the dragon than the hunter, im sure you will find some way to communicate it without breaking the rules.

[Tasunke]

I will probably be on the road at deadline. For game purposes it will still b 2200 deadline

[Rowain]

But you don't play as scum to make the village lose, you play to win for your faction. Logical fallacy.

Are you seriously proposing that not assassinating slowcheetah was a winning move in any way or form?

No, YOU stated that you would have made the village lose for certain if you had assassinated slowcheetah. I told you that you don't play to make to village lose, but to win yourself. So the question is not if not assassinating slowcheetah was a winning move, the question is if it was necessary in order to win. And quite obviously it was not, the village is even now on the brink of destruction, despite slowcheetah sacrificing himself for us.

Of course. tell me what would be the drawback to assassinating slowcheetah? I can't see one. If SC died that day Azza and Matt are dead. Sorry I fail to see any advantage in assassinating Bigger over SC fr the hunters. Not to mention that Lewwyn could have revenge-killed Bigger and I could have assassinated SC.

And to add, if scum works together, they still only have a draw. Betrayal seems inevitable.

For one we don't know what their victory conditions are. Or at least I don't know your knowledge may be deeper.

Bullshit Rowain. What you imply here is that they win together. Why make different factions when they would win together?

Did I create that game? Besides I didn't say they win together but maybe 1 side wins in such a standoff and the other not. Afterall you claim the dragon can't be nightkilled which means in a 1vs 1 he would win. So do you have prove in any way or form that there won't be a winner if there are only scum left? An assurance that a draw is even possible? Additional betrayal means certain lose so why should they do it. Ah yeah in your world scum does always the best to help the village i forgot.

[quote]b) As you pointed out you want us to believe that the Dragon is nightkill-immune.

No, but I see it as possible, being often the case for a SK.

So a betrayel by the other party seems hard to do and a betrayal by the Dragon is easily avoidable. Let the Dragon hit Azza and he either does his job or he gets lynched the next day

So now it is certain that the Dragon will live? But I thought you believe I am the Dragon and if you get lynched you will assassinate me certainly, no? Again you make no sense.

If he doesn't get killed today he will live yes. And the village will lose. Plain simple as you said we are ion brink of destruction. We either have 2 dead scum at the end of today a 5-1 setup or a scum victory.

[quote]c) Sorry with 2 clear targets (azza & Mattimeo) its hard to believe that the scum won't coordinate. Especially as we don't know what extra powers they do have.

As we do not know which powers Azza and Mattimeo still hold. Also scum coordinated not often in these games, I think Bigger was the only one even ever trying it.

d) Why are you so eager to kill the one with the obsidian daggers Serdoa? Why won't you rather kill the Dragon? Do you fear them?

Because I believe you are the Hunter and therefore I want to lynch you because you seem to be able to kill in the day and in the night.

So you believe that I'm a Hunter that can kill day and night had 2 scumbbuddies one of which could revenge-kill too. Don't you wonder what the WW got for them? You alude to some mysterious hidden power to which only you are immune but nobody has seen it so far. and the poor dragon is not only alone but all he got is a weak bow-shot that needs a full day till it hits its target. Doesn't that sound odd too you? Why would one scumparty get power to wipe out the village nearly alone and the others got only crumbs.

[Rowain]

@ Azza & Mattimeo:

I'm willing to vote Serdoa,Selrahc or waterbat with you. I'm also willing to make the assassination that you call (well as long it isn't one of you 2).
But please think the whole setup through:
If Serdoa is right the Hunters have nightkills/daykills and a revengekill too. Isn't that a bit too much? Would n't that mean that the Dragon got a very powerfull weapon too (afterall he is alone) and not such a meager arrow. What happened to the WW-powers? According to Serdoas theory waterbat is the Dragon wouldn't that rather mean that all the talking about arrows were a lie and he has in reality a real daykill-power? Why is Serdoa not afraid about that possibility? (Of course if he knows WB is not the Dragon he has no need for fear)? He claims he knows the WW have a special power too yet he doesn't fear it. He seems also not fear the WW using it against somebody else. which indicates he doesn't care who gets hit as long as it isn't him.

Please think t through. Think about how realistic which setup is. Afterall you know which powers you have.

[Rowain]

Serdoa

[Serdoa]

@ Azza & Mattimeo:

I'm willing to vote Serdoa,Selrahc or waterbat with you. I'm also willing to make the assassination that you call (well as long it isn't one of you 2).
But please think the whole setup through:
If Serdoa is right the Hunters have nightkills/daykills and a revengekill too. Isn't that a bit too much? Would n't that mean that the Dragon got a very powerfull weapon too (afterall he is alone) and not such a meager arrow. What happened to the WW-powers? According to Serdoas theory waterbat is the Dragon wouldn't that rather mean that all the talking about arrows were a lie and he has in reality a real daykill-power? Why is Serdoa not afraid about that possibility? (Of course if he knows WB is not the Dragon he has no need for fear)? He claims he knows the WW have a special power too yet he doesn't fear it. He seems also not fear the WW using it against somebody else. which indicates he doesn't care who gets hit as long as it isn't him.

Please think t through. Think about how realistic which setup is. Afterall you know which powers you have.

Rowain, you write several things here which are not true (for the n-th time...). I said I can protect against the wolves and I said I know they have another ability besides their normal kill. When exactly in all that time did I say I don't care who gets hit? Why did I say I don't fear something? You make all of that up.

Also, before it was plain ridiculous that the Dragon does have a poison arrow to boot and certainly much too strong. Now suddenly only a meager poison arrow is total shit. Could you decide please, as you can't have it both ways.