NO PLAYERS- 53 reasons why i shouldnt make maps

[Charriu]

That is one seriously crashed economy. Almost certainly the correct play as well given the extreme fertility of the map and TBS having access to Protective trade routes + offshore islands. When I gripe a bit about the Realms Beyond MP maps being a bit too lush, this is what I'm talking about: expansion as fast as possible becomes the correct choice in every situation. You could never do this on a natural map without going completely broke. But this isn't a natural map and TBS is correct to get his settlers down at warp speed before the rest of the land is claimed. Super impressive bounceback performance even if his research is going to be lousy for a while.

And then when I make a less-lush-than-usual map in PB52 ppl complain

The only complain I had about PB52 are the ugly rivers.

[Sullla]

To sunrise's question, I'm speaking with regards to the internal economy, not the external contest against the other players. On a super-lush map with tons of food resources and easy access to intercontinental trade routes (plus the experimental new Protective trait), rapid expansion is essentially always the right choice from an internal economic perspective. New cities pay for themselves exceedingly quickly so the early game is all about pushing settlers and workers as fast as possible. The big strategic tradeoff is doing this while also keeping your settlements safe from the other players and that can indeed make for very compelling gameplay. I totally understand the desire to set up these kind of maps since most players enjoy having lush settings and it speeds things up considerably. The action starts faster and there's a lot of competition over the juciest parts of the map.

The tradeoff is that fast expansion is so clearly the one and only correct strategy that it does crowd out anything else as a possibility. I think the gameplay balance is better when crashing your economy down to +1 gold at 0% science isn't a viable strategy. Six different size 1 cities with zero infrastructure feels "off" to me even though I completely understand why TBS would go for it. Protective + offshore island city is what, a 3 commerce trade route instantly in every city? That swings the gameplay pretty hard as far as what's economically viable. The main counter is other players getting aggressive and sniping those cities but as we've seen that's also somewhat random. AT didn't do anything much different than the other players and largely ended up unlucky to have an empty city at the wrong moment. Cornflakes and Mr. Cairo essentially sabotaged their own games to launch attacks at TBS and burn two cities. If you're relying on the actions of the other players to serve as a balancing function, their actions are always going to be chaotic and unpredictable.

I'm not sure that I'm going anywhere in particular with this. I think superdeath did a good job overall on this map and it's making for a fun and interesting game. I think I'm just looking at the RB Multiplayer games in general and thinking "huh, this doesn't play out anything like natural maps in Single Player." But should the games play out in similar fashion? Probably not! Having 10 cities this fast still feels weird though.

[Jowy]

That is one seriously crashed economy. Almost certainly the correct play as well given the extreme fertility of the map and TBS having access to Protective trade routes + offshore islands. When I gripe a bit about the Realms Beyond MP maps being a bit too lush, this is what I'm talking about: expansion as fast as possible becomes the correct choice in every situation. You could never do this on a natural map without going completely broke. But this isn't a natural map and TBS is correct to get his settlers down at warp speed before the rest of the land is claimed. Super impressive bounceback performance even if his research is going to be lousy for a while.

And then when I make a less-lush-than-usual map in PB52 ppl complain

Aw that's sad to hear. I liked the more barren map. As long as it's same for everyone I don't see a problem with it.

[Jowy]

To sunrise's question, I'm speaking with regards to the internal economy, not the external contest against the other players. On a super-lush map with tons of food resources and easy access to intercontinental trade routes (plus the experimental new Protective trait), rapid expansion is essentially always the right choice from an internal economic perspective. New cities pay for themselves exceedingly quickly so the early game is all about pushing settlers and workers as fast as possible. The big strategic tradeoff is doing this while also keeping your settlements safe from the other players and that can indeed make for very compelling gameplay. I totally understand the desire to set up these kind of maps since most players enjoy having lush settings and it speeds things up considerably. The action starts faster and there's a lot of competition over the juciest parts of the map.

The tradeoff is that fast expansion is so clearly the one and only correct strategy that it does crowd out anything else as a possibility. I think the gameplay balance is better when crashing your economy down to +1 gold at 0% science isn't a viable strategy. Six different size 1 cities with zero infrastructure feels "off" to me even though I completely understand why TBS would go for it. Protective + offshore island city is what, a 3 commerce trade route instantly in every city? That swings the gameplay pretty hard as far as what's economically viable. The main counter is other players getting aggressive and sniping those cities but as we've seen that's also somewhat random. AT didn't do anything much different than the other players and largely ended up unlucky to have an empty city at the wrong moment. Cornflakes and Mr. Cairo essentially sabotaged their own games to launch attacks at TBS and burn two cities. If you're relying on the actions of the other players to serve as a balancing function, their actions are always going to be chaotic and unpredictable.

I'm not sure that I'm going anywhere in particular with this. I think superdeath did a good job overall on this map and it's making for a fun and interesting game. I think I'm just looking at the RB Multiplayer games in general and thinking "huh, this doesn't play out anything like natural maps in Single Player." But should the games play out in similar fashion? Probably not! Having 10 cities this fast still feels weird though.  

Did we manage to mod Civ4 enough to bring back ICS? Great job guys.

[Charriu]

Having 10 cities this fast still feels weird though.  

There's also the 'advanced start', which contributes the most to the fast pace.

[superdeath]

I'm not sure that I'm going anywhere in particular with this. I think superdeath did a good job overall on this map and it's making for a fun and interesting game. I think I'm just looking at the RB Multiplayer games in general and thinking "huh, this doesn't play out anything like natural maps in Single Player." But should the games play out in similar fashion? Probably not! Having 10 cities this fast still feels weird though.  

Now, what would it take to get You in a pitboss? Ill give everyone 1 single corn as their only food and force people to fight over a dry rice in the middle if thats what it takes...

[naufragar]

I think I'm just looking at the RB Multiplayer games in general and thinking "huh, this doesn't play out anything like natural maps in Single Player." But should the games play out in similar fashion? Probably not! Having 10 cities this fast still feels weird though.  

You might be interested in the Civforum pitboss. It's been something of a culture shock to play over there on a much less lush Deity Huge map. And, for those of you who can read PB51 threads in good conscience, the Civforum people have discussed a little of their own culture shock at the lower difficulty, higher food count maps that we play.

[sunrise089]

Commodore’s comment that Scooter is indecisive is spot on this time. Scooter has played an outstanding game, but from the point he had all his immediately necessary growth and military techs he will have gone 2x religious techs, currency, HBR, and calendar before circling back to metal casting -> machinery. That seems slow given the noted plan to gobble up the crippled AT.

[pindicator]

I agree with the attack plan being off. At this point he should probably tech to knights - he should get there well before anyone else. If he wanted to do a CKN attack he should have used the Oracle on Machinery - he certainly could have grabbed Metal Casting if he grabbed Math in this game

[Cyneheard]

Here's how I see this game going:

Everyone dogpiles scooter in the next 10-20t because he's got the tech lead right now. Scooter gets 3v1d and can't hold out, falls way back.

TBS is then unstoppable as he'll have converted his massive pile of hammers and land into everything he needs to then run away with the game and he'll be unassailable.