Shoot, are you available to chat sometime today/tomorrow? Deciding 2nd city locations is something we probably need to hash out in chat, although perhaps deciding Gandhi's 2nd city can wait until AH.
HAK did something completely unexpected, and built Stonehenge. Needless to say, Bismark is still at size 1 without a settler and has presumably used both forests. He's crippled himself to get that wonder for the team, have to wait and see if Vicky of Korea with free monuments can carry the team. I'm tempted to send some WC's down there and see if we can do something to ensure he remains crippled, especially since we have no idea where the other two teams are.
(March 28th, 2013, 08:53)WarriorKnight Wrote: Shoot, are you available to chat sometime today/tomorrow? Deciding 2nd city locations is something we probably need to hash out in chat, although perhaps deciding Gandhi's 2nd city can wait until AH.
HAK did something completely unexpected, and built Stonehenge. Needless to say, Bismark is still at size 1 without a settler and has presumably used both forests. He's crippled himself to get that wonder for the team, have to wait and see if Vicky of Korea with free monuments can carry the team. I'm tempted to send some WC's down there and see if we can do something to ensure he remains crippled, especially since we have no idea where the other two teams are.
Yeah, I should be available most of today. I'll leave my gchat open. Even if it goes to that orange status that probably means I just haven't clicked on the tab in a while feel free to send me a message.
Here's the chat log from last night discussing second city spots and oracle plans:
warrior knight: hey shoot the moon: hey warrior knight: man, i dont even know where to put your 2nd city shoot the moon: yeah same warrior knight: lots of options available
first thing to discuss though is strategy
are we still pursuing oracle? and if so where do we build it? shoot the moon: hmm
problem is the only spot I have to chop out the oracle at the moment would be the capital
nowhere else for the second city has anywhere near enough forests warrior knight: pigs spot? shoot the moon: yeah but only with a border pop
so I'd either have to chop a monument first warrior knight: do we need a border pop though? shoot the moon: or we have to time it so a religion gets founded there (which might not be terrible)
I assume it'd need all four forests warrior knight: you can still chop outside borders, just gives less shoot the moon: yeah
hmm warrior knight: oracle is 100 hammers, effectively 67 with IND
forests give 13 hammers i think? shoot the moon: yeah pre math warrior knight: 13 x 4 = 52
13 x 3 = 39 shoot the moon: whip overflow off a granary maybe for the rest warrior knight: yeah, what i was thinking too shoot the moon: pasture pigs, probably cottage FP then chop chop chop warrior knight: but to do that, either we whip at size 4 or have to almost complete the granary manually for max overflow shoot the moon: yeah warrior knight: it might be easier to do at your cap shoot the moon: with pigs and FP I'd say probably size 4 warrior knight: in fact, we can 2 pop whip max overflow a granary or worker and then chop 3 forests for it i think shoot the moon: question is is it worth it? warrior knight: 67 - 39 = 28 overflow hammers needed for 1t shoot the moon: this map looks so rich REX might be the better play, especially for a fin civ warrior knight: hmmm
we are IND, and not going for a early wonder is kinda a waste of a trait esp. with only 4 teams and bismarck crippled for stonehenge shoot the moon: yeah warrior knight: if we leverage it into free mids then i think it is worth it shoot the moon: actually the one saving grace is I can likely be at 3 cities by the time we even get to priesthood assuming we go for pottery first warrior knight: really? havent thought too much about expansion timeframe yet shoot the moon: assuming our tech path is AH->pottery->whichever religion is still there-->priesthood
maybe only one though not sure
instead of a granary could do overflow from a settler or worker too although whipping without a granary is painful
I suspect I could get to 3 cities but be short on workers though...which doesn't help for having to chop a bunch so maybe just two cities and more workers then warrior knight: maybe, but i think we should do that only if you have a granary already, you dont have many high food tiles in your cap shoot the moon: yeah that's true
doing that if we do it at pigs city could be an idea though warrior knight: ive done sandboxes on both starts and both settlers should be due around t23ish shoot the moon: I could see pasture pigs, farm FP and do two 4 to 2 worker whips say warrior knight: wouldnt be suprised if we were finishing up pottery by then shoot the moon: although maybe the first is a gran instead warrior knight: could be a good worker factory, 2 high food tiles, decent amount of hills and forests shoot the moon: and not entirely sure farming the FP is worth the worker labor over a sooner chop
eh, over six riverside cottages though?
that screams commerce site to me warrior knight: what other high production sites do you have? shoot the moon: NW
copper, deer, wheat
with either 4 to 3 or 5 to 3 whips warrior knight: maybe if you put moai there, but otherwise not great long term shoot the moon: no not long term
but for the initial worker and settler pump it'd do decently warrior knight: pigs could do that too shoot the moon: true
actually with enough hapiness pigs could realistically be a decent mixed city
cottage the riversides, then still have enough food to work all but one plainshill mine warrior knight: i was thinking you do most of your early research in your cap, since I'm PHI i could probably get a scientist to you decently early after the engineer
not a lot of river, but you do have gems shoot the moon: yeah
gems and four rivers is enough early on
long term though not the best bureau capital warrior knight: true, but i should have rep scientists to help out shoot the moon: yeah although those are better early on obviously warrior knight: its best in classical and renaissance apparently, medieval its alright and starts to fall behind in industrial
anyway, not that important right now
pigs site may be good for some cottages eventually, but i do think early on we should keep it on production
to try and make up the fact we have no expansion traits shoot the moon: probably smart
at the very least do frequent whip cycles off that pig
and work a grass hill mine
cottages and whipping probably comes out ahead of working plains hills mines though I'd think warrior knight: since your FIN probably shoot the moon: then again a pigs tile alone is a ton of hammers just from whipping
probably whip a settler or worker every six turns there
and set it up to finish a worker afterward with the overflow warrior knight: hmmm, if we do get oracle, a forge there would do wonders
might be a tad early to build it though? shoot the moon: definitely not since I'm IND
with IND bonus it's only a two pop whip
I expect I'll go pretty heavy on the forges just because with IND they pay off so fast warrior knight: true
so, i think we decided on the pig then? i wouldnt mind the NW but we dont have enough map intel or hunting yet shoot the moon: yeah
I think pigs it is
I assume your second city is to your N warrior knight: alright, now what do you think of my area?
that was my first thought yes, but im thinking of the area just to my W now shoot the moon: 1E of the copper? warrior knight: well, if you go 1S of pigs, i think thats the only place it can go shoot the moon: 1N of the corn would have more overlap but it wouldn't be awful warrior knight: although it is a pretty weak site... i was thinking of corn + copper + 2 scientists but after mids we'll blow the happy cap away shoot the moon: turns two of those lake tiles into 3f tiles they wouldn't otherwise be warrior knight: also, if we do found a religion, it would be much better in the northern site... shoot the moon: yeah
not that either place is great for a religion warrior knight: depends on where horses are i guess, if they are also north then its no contest
huh? north is a great place for religion shoot the moon: you mean north of your capital or north of the corn?
north of the capital definitely is I thought you were refering to 1N of the corn warrior knight: oh, when i said north i meant north of capital shoot the moon: oh ok yeah that definitely is good for a religion warrior knight: i wasnt really considering north of corn as an option, but you do make some good points shoot the moon: I'd say it's better in the mid to longish term
but definitely starts slower without copper in first ring warrior knight: i dont think a city 3 tiles away from yours, especially without the ability to share tiles is worth it shoot the moon: yeah probably true warrior knight: meh, worst case scenario it could work some colussus coast shoot the moon: yeah but so could 1E of copper
I'd say maybe go with 1E of copper warrior knight: that time i meant 1E of copper shoot the moon: close by so the worker labor is easier
oh ok warrior knight: still dont know if that site should be 2nd city or not, probably not shoot the moon: only problem with it though is your second city is probably where you go forge-->engineer right? warrior knight: maybe im being greedy, but religion would be a lot better in north of cap shoot the moon: no it would be warrior knight: i was thinking of cap actually shoot the moon: oh warrior knight: unlike normal oracle mids MC gambits, im not on a timer since your not PHI and I am shoot the moon: that's true warrior knight: although without any more forests i dont see how to complete it in any reasonable timeframe
perhaps a 3/4 pop whip?
certainly doable with all the food in my cap shoot the moon: eh
it'd still be painful
for a four pop whip you'd have to grow to size 8
and we definitely don't have the happiness for that
you might need to mine at least one of those hills to get it done in the cap
although still probably the best spot to do it now that I look at it
Big news from this turn was meeting Seven's scout:
I moved the warrior NW, because if seven moves toward me I can kill his scout wherever it moves. Mackoti has a size 4 capital already. If I had to guess I'd suspect he did a novice in 41 strategy of a really early granary, possibly even with the avoid growth trick.
And here's another chat we had. Last chat focused on domestic stuff, while this one is more strategic/opponent analysis (well, one opponent in particular...):
Shoot: Hey me: hi Shoot: not sure if you've seen, but 7's scout just showed up to my NW me: no i havent
7 huh? guess that means they share the north with us Shoot: yeah me: guess thats good news, better then commodore Shoot: yeah probably
and can keep tabs on our most likely mids competition me: true, but what does contact do that C&D cant? Shoot: probably true
visibility on cities if we get it in time maybe
the other question I had before finishing my turn though was your opinion on building a settler at size 2 or should I wait three turns to grow to size 3 first me: first thought is at size 2, you wont make up for the 3 turns it takes to grow with a unimproved tile Shoot: yeah that's probably my thoughts
workers hook up cow then road toward the new city probably
then while settler is en route chop out another worker at the capital I'd say me: that might work, but we do need to prepare for oracle at some point Shoot: yeah
I figure we need a third worker before oracle anyhow me: probably
hmm could we 1t it with 2 chops?
67- 23 = 44
whip overflow is max 19
so you'd need 13 hammers per turn for 2 turn at size 2, not happening Shoot: yeah me: hope you dont mind me renaming everything Shoot: no I don't at all
I am apparently not as up on my memes as you and dave is all so I have no idea what to name them without you guys telling me/doing it
speaking of dave that reminds me to check if he has civ access yet considering I'm going to be unavailable most of april as I said in the signup thread me: im usually like that too, but i came up with this naming theme and it is too good not to use
hmmm, have you actually heard anything from dave recently? Shoot: not recently but I'll post on the forums
oh also interesting C&D note: mackoti's capital is size 4 me: yep, i noticed that Shoot: also you need to end turn before me next turn me: even more interesting, he went from 3 > 4 in 1t
granary at work there? Shoot: I'd guess
novice pbem 49 strategy probably
wouldn't even be terribly surprised if he used the exact same avoid growth trick me: i ded lurked gasper there, care to bring me up to speed? Shoot: let me go check the forum quickly to get the details accurate me: k Shoot: oh also I lied on the number
it wasn't 49 me: 47 Shoot: yeah me: hmmm, i think i can guess what it is Shoot: it was basically a ridiculously early granary me: with avoid growth, you dont use the food to grow, but it might still count as filling up the food box Shoot: eot 13
for the granary finishing
basically the avoid growth trick is that if you're say only going to grow by 1 food on the turn you complete a granary, it's sometimes better to hit avoid growth
you'll lose that one food (or say if you were hitting the next size exactly no food) but the next time your food surplus will go toward filling up the granary box as well as full overflow
examples on this page by the way http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...670&page=7 me: hmmm, sounds like something i should look into
which post is it?
i think we have different amounts of posts per page Shoot: post 67
it's really only relevant in a very limited amount of cases (specifically only when completing the granary in a city which is past half full in the food box already) me: wish i could see the size of the food box
but the results are clear, mehmed is the clear early leader with early granary Shoot: yeah me: honestly wouldnt be suprised if they whipped the settler as soon as they finish BW Shoot: size 4 city on t15 (2t before what mackoti has right now) with a completed granary and full food box
oh yeah also they look to be in a strong position assuming they did the same thing
downside for them of course is the strategy requires super early pottery me: how is that a downside? i guess later BW is a bit of a downside but there are enough starting techs for it not to really matter Shoot: later AH as well likely me: nope, they went AH first Shoot: oh ok
then yeah just later BW me: AH -> pottery -> BW (presumably, havent finished it yet) Shoot: probably slows down the lake start a bit
not able to chop the WBs me: they went wb first, hence how they got to size 2 on t6
then presumably a worker then granary
mackoti is on 16 food right now at size 4, im on 14 food with gandhi at size 3 so they probably have the 2nd wb connected as well Shoot: you think they put mehmed on the lakes instead of their PHI civ? me: definately
mehmed, darius and bismarck do not have warriors, everyone else does
a warrior is a natural build for the inland starts, while i had to build one as a consequence of not starting with fishing Shoot: interesting
to be honest I'm rather glad it's seven that's near us then and not mackoti me: this is all guesswork from C&D of course, but i dont see anything that should conflict with it so far
heh, you might be closer to seven but im closer to mackoti Shoot: true
but that lake might mean it's not a huge settling race in his direction me: maybe, too early to tell Shoot: yeah
at least that'd be my hope
certainly to your NW doesn't look like you'd be racing him me: if we land oracle, i have a feeling that the giant lake to my east connects to mackoti
in which case, triremes would give an edge Shoot: yeah I suspect it does connect and yeah that'd be useful
especially because if there are any islands on the lake we'll want them
ICTR for all our cities and all me: it does of course assume we land oracle, which is my biggest fear right now
yeah Shoot: at least we haven't seen marble
which sort of takes seven and mackoti out of the equation with no IND
and obviously the henge build would seem to take out 4H from that race me: actually, mackseven are the biggest competition imo
4H is out with stonehenge
LAM have bad techs to catch up from
they have good reason to get priesthood early with ziggurats
although they do have to tech myst instead of fishing, they currently have the best start
although perhaps im paranoid since we dont really have a plan B in case we miss oracle Shoot: yeah
plan b I'd say is just expand like mad men me: although I do agree having IND over them is an advantage
isnt that what we were planning on doing after getting oracle? Shoot: yeah but if we fail oracle I simply don't see a huge early game target besides from expanding
me: true Shoot: maybe GLH if there look to be sufficient island sites
that is enough intercontinental sites me: GLH is underrated in AW Shoot: and probably on this map as well me: the other thing we could do is super fast academy Shoot: if we had four island sites actually wouldn't be awful considering it is boosted in a team game
but yeah probably academy me: hmmm, i think ive just convinced myself on GLH as plan b Shoot: oh actually it'd be more mid game, but if we fail oracle I'd definitely target MoM
just remembered that's not banned me: very true, we should consider a play for it even if we do land oracle Shoot: yeah
that and HG are both very good mid game wonders for this team setup
GLH really depends on how many island sites we can get I'd say though
so need more map info before we could plan it
I don't think it's worth it for non intercontinental routes me: actually, thats a problem, your only coastal city would be to the NW, and who knows how built up that would be Shoot: yeah me: maybe not worth beelining for, but its something we shouldnt forget about if its available for a while Shoot: yeah that sounds about like my thoughts
see how the map plays out and keep it in the back of our heads for a while me: no marble or stone on the map would be great for us Shoot: agreed me: if its anywhere though, its probably in the tundra somewhere
for map balance Shoot: yeah
wouldn't surprise me at all
tundra in the dead middle between teams probably
make you race for the tundra if you want it me: need moar scouting
im sending my scout to try and find seven now that ive found vicky and scout your SW along the way
man i wish i knew where horses were, getting some WC's out would be awesome Shoot: yeah
should know next turn at least
I've been paranoid for a while about Smackdown racing us for Oracle but I forgot they still need to tech Mysticism as well. Since that's a additional speed bump to cross, along with having to compete with a IND civ for it, they will probably not bother with it and instead go for Writing to aim for early Academy. This map is pretty commerce rich/production poor from what I've seen so far though, that may not be the best thing to do (although heck, what do I know?). I dunno what they should do, guess I'll find out when they eventually get to that point.
One other thing I want to find out, how common are luxuries on this map?
Not a lot. There's easy access to Gems for Maya and Gold for Egypt. There's also furs in the northern tundra, in a very backfill location (ie bad for settling races). There's some gems at IW available but otherwise it's spices, dyes and a stray incense at Calendar (yes, I realise the starts aren't mirrored, but they should be balanced presumably).
Why do I care? Because with Rep + early forges + Ball Courts, Happiness is going to be a complete non-issue for Maya and a small problem at worst for Gandhi. Everyone else though doesn't get free early happiness from anything, and will have to tech either Monarchy or Calendar + IW. Free happy from Mids only matters when the map is happy resource poor.
(March 29th, 2013, 08:05)Shoot the Moon Wrote: Also, Dave, did you ever get your civ stuff figured out? Remember I'm going to need you to sub for me for most of April (starting around April 6th).
Yes, I'm good to take over for you.
I've been reading along even if I haven't been posting - I have a funding deadline on Monday that's keeping me insanely busy, but after that, I'll have plenty of time to devote to this game.
Not great positioning, sadly that's the only source we can see right now, aside from one right next to 4H.
Meanwhile, Mehmed grew to size 5 and Smackdown got BW. So, we both researched BW and AH in the same amount of time, however they got Pottery while we got fishing, so effectively managed to get a 70 beaker advantage on us, and can probably head straight onto writing next while the rest of us tech pottery (even worse for the other 2 teams, who still need at least wheel). Do they have their Gems mine up already? That's pretty much the only way I think they can be that far ahead in tech at this point. Kinda depressing, and we haven't even reached t20 yet.
Also power numbers are starting to be uncooperative. Rival best suggests that Mehmed built a warrior (and he probably did IMO) but rival average doesn't. Could someone have lost a warrior already? That would make the numbers right but that's pretty hard to do, unless it's being unlucky vs a scout. Not sure what to do here.
Needless to say, Bismark is still at size 1 without a settler and has presumably used both forests. He's crippled himself to get that wonder for the team, have to wait and see if Vicky of Korea with free monuments can carry the team. I'm tempted to send some WC's down there and see if we can do something to ensure he remains crippled, especially since we have no idea where the other two teams are. 
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