Beyond Nakedness

[Zed-F]

Challenges include:

AR
Life steal
Mana steal
Mobility
Finding a good curse


Some thoughts for the various classes:

Amazon - AR will be a moderate problem, possible to compensate with Penetrate and Inner Sight (the latter makes a decent curse too.) Decoy will be invaluable, the only potentially robust minion in the BNx game. Mobility is also a problem. Life and mana steal are a serious issue, depending on what gear you have available. If you have the right gear available, though, Decoy might make the build worth it by itself.

Assassin - A dual-claw MA 'sin looks like a strong contender, with weapon-based blocking including elemental attacks, several options for increasing AR, tiger strike/dragon claw for damage, cobra strike for leeching, and BoS or a slvl1 Dragon Flight for mobility. Traps and shadow warrior can then provide curse potential. Any reasonable claws will make this build work, so less item-dependent than some other weapon-based characters.

Barbarian - Several possibilities present themselves. AR can be worked around using masteries, selected combat skills, and battle cry. Mobility is not a big issue with increased speed, Leap, LA, and Frenzy available, but making use of leap as a curse requires a significant investment in the skill, arguing for a LA build... but a LA barb won't be as inclined toward tanking. Not many non-melee curses available other than leap, though. Life and mana steal are a serious issue, depending on what gear you have available.

Druid - A good selection of curses to choose from; if wereform, mainly minions, but still a good selection at different power levels. Werewolf should have minimal AR problems relative to other weapon-based BNx, and has skill-based leeching and mobility options, so looks good on paper for a wide selection of possible weapons. Werebear will have more AR issues; fire claws can compensate at least somewhat, but damage potential may suffer due to skill point shortages for synergies. Moreover, mobility may be a problem. Elemental druid has many options, though lack of mana and life could be problematic with no mobility options. Since many of his spells are AoE or otherwise unpredictable, extra caution to avoid splattering teammates would be required.

Necromancer - Actually I think Life tap would be a great low-level curse. Most mobs do a pitiful amount of damage relative to their life totals, whereas players do a ton of damage but have relatively small life totals. I would be far more concerned about Decrepify since it lowers one's ability to flee from a rough spot (which should happen a lot more...) As for damage, minions are out, and all poison is wide AOE, so that leaves the bone tree as pretty much the most likely alternative. Good news is care in target selection will minimize friendly fire, but the bad news is damage and mana will be even bigger problems than before. Mobility is also a problem.

Paladin - Lots of options, main concerns are leech and, to a lesser extent depending on whether you choose melee or ranged, AR. Mobility options are there with charge and vigor. Life and mana steal are a serious issue, depending on what gear you have available.

Sorceress - All the weapon-based builds would love +AR from an Enchantress, but she would only be able to help herself since the others are not partied except for quest completion. Relatively low mana is a significant potential problem. Mobility option is teleport, which is powerful but relatively mana-hungry unless pumped. Blaze is a nice spell from a mana-efficiency standpoint and a good curse as well but low walk/run speed and low life for tempting might make it a problematic spell to use. It also doesn't work as well in a group if the tank can't stand in the flames without eating the damage. Maybe in a group of ranged BNx's?

[Zed-F]

I think I would go with either a werewolf or a dual-claw MA 'sin for a first attempt, especially as I don't have a vast library of mules to draw ideal gear from. Skill-based leeching and mobility options mean those builds top my list. A 'zon would be high on my list as well if I happened to have Magewrath -- guided + high mana steal + a strong decoy makes a great combination for covering fire.

I'm not thrilled enough about any of the spellcasters' single target damage spells to be that interested in taking on the mana challenges associated with them. I got enough of that with my slacker.

However, I'm only on relatively early by your standards, so we might not get online at the same time much.

[KingOfPain]

- Amazon - Indeed, if she goes more or less FireEngineRed (my naked passive zon) she will be one of the safest class to play minus a Valk. Note that FER was tanking (in 1.09) All the way to hell act 5, and I consider her fully mature in her 50s. What that means is that she has a lot of points to spare (even after maxing Valk), enough to actually max an attack skill and more. Tho it might will be a long way to 50 for a BN(x). A zon with Slow Missile would definitely add some fun moments to a game with rangers.

- Assassin - Nod. Would work better than a baba - block, resists ele/phy, speed, and even more possible mods than a dual wield baba.

- Barbarian - I am disappointed that LA does not working like Leap as described at the AS. Leap would be too tedious for a curse, althought it would still make a nice crowd control skill (with the benefit of a curse). Yes, mana would be an issue for melee, and more so, cry baba. Throw barb need little mana and he can be with most of the team and curse them with War Cry. Alas, Car Cry is not cheap at 10 mana per cast at slvl 1. Probably the worse class for a BN as far as curses are concerned.

- Druid - A traffic control Bear might work. Shockwave to stun, Oak Sage for himself, a pack of birds to scout and one other animal to spam as decoy...

- Necromancer - The master BN curser would be a great help to any party with some basic traffic control skills. BS would indeed be expansive. He would probably use IM'd Bone wall/prison, and partners to get his kills when possible. Speaking of poison, wouldn't poison make a nice kill stealer? Since poison damage is practically calculated constantly, a monster have more chance dying to a poison source than someone doing the real damage?


- Sorceress - The Fire tree would be my pick for attacks due to its relatively low mana cost, and a realatively safe spell that packs a good punch - FireBall. Too bad another skill (maybe Blizzard) would have to replace Hydra as a curse.


What is your opinion on non-magical shield for melee classes?

How much curse is too much?

KoP

[Zed-F]

Necromancer poison as a kill stealer? Possibly, but I tend to doubt it. You'd have to have another player land a blow that slivers a mob rather than killing it outright. Also, IM/bone wall or prison won't give XP, so while it may be effective in some circumstances you can't use it as a main strategy. Since there's no XP sharing for party kills, everyone must kill their share. I'd tend to think that a necro might have more problems levelling than some other classes -- at least without drinking blues like a fish. Any pure traffic control character would have a similar problem; everyone will need to have a reasonable way to contribute damage to the group.

A normal shield for melee classes that use a weapon? Doesn't seem like a deal-breaker to me, I'd say ok. That is a non-socketed normal shield, right?

[Zed-F]

I see potential for a certain level of forced artificialness in the gameplay that I'm leery of and would prefer to avoid. I don't mind the idea of cursing my allies as part of an action I would have taken against the mobs anyway, or when nothing else significant is happening as far as my character is concerned (e.g. battling some FIs while running a fire sorcy). However, wasting time and mana in combat casting a curse that has no appreciable effect on the mobs, purely to inconvenience my allies, doesn't sit well.

To my mind, if I were to play a melee assassin, I would be perfectly happy to use CoS or a low level SW to blind/distract mobs and make them more vulnerable to my attacks, or use a low-level trap to scout, and if my supposed allies suffer, that's their tough luck... but casting a low-level WoF under the feet of the guys that are tanking a mob is a pure waste of time and mana. It's an unnatural action for a melee 'sin since she knows it won't appreciably hurt the mobs, and she'd be better off jumping into the fray herself from an XP standpoint if for no other reason.

Similarly, if I'm a sorcy, and I have frost nova, am I going to be spending time in combat making sure everyone is blue? No, I'm going to be killing mobs, and if one gets too close I might use frost nova to give myself a bit of extra time to reposition. Static makes a better curse in this regard since it's a reasonable attack spell even late in the game, whereas an slvl1 frost nova is normally used on a purely situational basis.

Most BNx can follow this sort of "Selfish Cursing" philosophy and still find some good curses to use that are not purely situational but can form a significant part of their regular battleplan. Some low-level damage spells that don't really have any other benefits besides damage might get shut out of contention as useful curses, but many such spells offer ancillary benefits (chill time, poison preventing mob regen, etc.) that might make them worth using anyway, and other options such as minions are still open. It seems like it would feel less artificial than an "Obsessive Cursing" philosophy that would prioritize cursing your allies ahead even of killing the mobs.

Thoughts?

[Zed-F]

PvP penalty in 1.10 is you do 17% of your listed damage. Against a -100% resall BNx partner, slvl1 T-storm would do ~0.34-34 damage. With non-maxed neg resist, less. So relatively high damage elemental skills may not be that big a deal, if (as with T-storm) they don't hit frequently, recalling that T-storm may hit mobs as well.

In fact, T-storm might be a good spur to keep the party moving, since the more mobs are onscreen, the less damage the party takes from T-storm.

[KingOfPain]

Good points. I agree and have no problem with the gist of your "Selfish Cursing" philosophy. Something I meant to cover.

Can you believe this D2 BN idea has been on the back burner for years and there are still issues to work out? I am not the first to come up with friendly fire game play. That credit would go to Charis. You just got to love that boy He had already dreamt up a few variant ideas based on friendly fire (although never fully developed) in the first D2 beta test. Just a side note of interest, and link HERE.

I see a mix of the 2 type of curses with a lean toward "Selfish Cursing" a good compromise. Depending on classes and skill sets and situation, curses with duration effect are more desirable because they leave you with more time to deal with monsters.

KoP

[KingOfPain]

That is a LOT better than what the AS says. It opens up more curses, and being able to "pump" certain curses for duration and AoE... Truely Delicious :wub:


KoP

[KingOfPain]

However, I'm only on relatively early by your standards, so we might not get online at the same time much.

That's ok with me. I see this variant as a "long" term project, not something I would rush anyway. A couple of hours here and there would work just fine. Also, I might have more than one BN going if there are enough interested parties.

Anyone else want to get in on this team before I pick a class?

KoP

[Zed-F]

Note, I don't think Poison and Open Wounds operate under these restrictions. That makes them extra dangerous in PvP play.