[SPOILERS-PBEM14] scooter's thread - Mansa Musa

[scooter]

Two things:

1. I think I figured out the huge GNP jump that someone had. I think Serdoa's working the gold tile that we saw in his screenshot. It's the only thing that makes sense.

2. I got a message overnight from Sandover. He met me from the west of Ron Burgundy, coming from Africa I'm pretty sure. His message was mildly cryptic, and I seriously wonder if he's already marked me as an enemy due to last game.


Report forthcoming "soon"... Hopefully within the next half hour, but it very possibly will be delayed for an hour and a half or more. We'll see...

[scooter]

Okay, I'm going to do the diplo update now, and the turn report with screenshots and such will come later. Here's what I got from Sandover:

Well if it isn't my old gossip buddy and nemesis, Mr. Cornerboy.

It's time to dance. Think you can handle my moves?

Pharaoh Sandover

Definitely one of the more interesting greeting messages I've gotten before. Honestly though, I get the feeling he may have me marked already, but it's hard to tell. His post-game comments as well as a few random pre-game comments on this game seemed that way. [side note: would anyone like brief recap of why this is? I'm not sure how closely any of you followed PBEM3.] So here was my reply:

Sandover,

Well that's certainly one of the more interesting greeting messages I've gotten. I'm not one for dancing I must admit, so perhaps we should settle this like men and play a game of Civilization.

Given your message, I'll respond in kind and skip the formalities. Should I give relations a serious shot in this game or should I just assume that you've marked me as an enemy already?

scooter

It was at this point I did my "Two things" post above. He responded just 10 minutes later though:

Scooter,

Man, that's the second time you make me look bad this game already. Stop it!

Yes and no.

Pharaoh Sandover

For a second I read the yes and no backwards, as him saying "yes you are my enemy already and no you shouldn't bother" so I laughed, and then I realized I got it backwards. For once, I really don't know how to approach diplomacy here. So I took a stab at it:

Sandover,

Second time? Care to share what the first one was or is that top secret?

Well that's good to hear. I'm guessing it's more like I'm starting with a -2 hit maybe? I came into this game wondering whether or not I was already labeled "worst enemy." If you've already declared vendetta on me, I can live with that, however I'd like to know it before I bother spend time trying to avoid it, if that makes sense.

You are the third person I have met this game... I met Serdoa first, then I recently met Lewwyn. The only person with whom I am missing contact thus far is Gaspar. Have you met him yet? I'm fairly sure you haven't met Lewwyn or Serdoa yet, so I'm curious if I am your first contact or not.

scooter

I'm guessing he hasn't met Gaspar yet, as I still think Gaspar is east of Lewwyn.


So my approach with Sandover thus far is to shoot straight and see if I can get him to reveal his intentions. If he's got me marked, I'd like to know ASAP, as I can start to build a coalition against him with Lewwyn - who has expressed some sense of caution about him.

[Mardoc]

[side note: would anyone like brief recap of why this is? I'm not sure how closely any of you followed PBEM3.]

Yes please. I'm trying to read some of the older games, but it's tough to keep up with all of them; I'm having trouble even keeping up with all the currently running ones.

[scooter]

Okay, before I resume on the Sandover stuff (and I'll write up a PBEM3 explanation as well), I'll do a report of the turn. First, here's where Sandover ran into me:



Yep, right near Africa like I thought. I was debating whether or not I should map out Africa or turn around and try to go find Gaspar, but the decision is now made. I'll get to that later in my Sandover diplo update. Here's a look at my capital:



I'm building a warrior, and I should get to size 4 at the same time. I'm also going to start chopping that forest next turn. So after the warrior, I will probably go settler next, and that chop will go into a settler for city #3. Where will City #3 go? It will either go in the other dot to my east (in my original dotmap), or it will go for copper to my west. Problem is, I don't know what the west looks like... Or do I??

Serdoa,

My scouting warrior headed west of Lewwyn and I ran into Sandover's warrior on this turn. I figured I'd send you a quick message to let you know. So once you get done scouting near me, head east of my land until you get past the lake, and head south to meet both Lewwyn and Sandover. Also - I founded city #2 just the other turn, so your scout cannot get past my land to go east... If you intend to come east again (is it a dead end to my west or does it continue?), then you'll have to declare war to get through my land. This is fine of course, I'll just ask that you be careful not to land on tiles that I am working.

I do have a little request if you don't mind. I got Bronze Working last turn, so due to my borders, I see a copper resource to the western edge of my land. I haven't scouted west though, so I do not know what is over there (where to place my cities and such). Do you mind providing a quick screenshot of what you've scouted over there? I'm of course happy to fill you in on what I've found down in the south if you'd like that too, or I can wait if you don't want it yet.

scooter

I quickly got this back:

Hey scooter,

it is a dead end, see attached screenshot. I would like to take your offer and head back through your land. I haven't met anyone except you, though given your information I wonder how the map looks like, maybe:

- - d - - - e - -
- - - - - - - - - -
a - - - - - - - b
- - - - - - - - - -
- - - - c - - - -
with d and e being you respectively me. Do you know if that could be true or if actually Lewwyn and Sandover are nearer to each other or as for from each other as we two?

Kind regards,
Serdoa

[Edit: Spoilered for size]

Jackpot! I added a little brown star where the copper is. Also, if that doesn't look like Europe then I don't know is! I see Spain, UK, Denmark, and Italy all pretty clearly. Several nice cities can be had here, however I'd like to use most of these spots as backfill spots, and push east/southeast quicker than that. I'm debating on whether I should found a copper city next THEN push east, or if I should found the dot to the east of my capital next. I'm going to take a closer look at this map from Serdoa (and dotmap it) before deciding. Any opinions? I'm pretty dead in the middle, but I'm slightly leaning towards grabbing the copper real quick and then pushing east.

Quick look at the demos:



More to come in a bit. I'll catch up on fun with Sandover, as well as a little history as to why things with Sandover are starting off unusually compared to most situations.

[scooter]

Okay, some history with myself and Sandover. In short, we both played together in PBEM3 - a game that ended in a draw because the game was running too slow (we had replacement players, one of which didn't fit well with our turn schedule, so we got in 2-3 turns a week max, so we just called it). We played a Highlands map that was arranged like this:

Sandover--Twinkletoes--SleepingMoogle
-------Laaaaaaakkkkkkkkeeeeee--------
Bobchworth------Timmy---------scooter


The map was flat, so Sandover was in the top left corner, I was in the bottom right corner. Sandover played a dominant game from a civ-skill point of view, and played an erratic/entertaining game from a diplo point of view. I played my opening in a fairly mediocre manner, although things gradually improved as I was learning a lot at this time... however I managed to make friends with basically everyone except Timmy, who didn't really make much effort at diplo.

Sandover and I got along well early on, and agreed to an intelligence deal. Due to flat map, we knew we would never be neighbors, so the concept behind the deal was that I should share all intel with him, and he would share all intel with me... We would keep this deal secret from everyone else, and basically he was my ear on that side of the world and I was his ear on my side. It worked wonderfully, and we both were better off for it. In general, it did benefit him a bit more, but it worked out well. Sandover then went on to declare war on Twinkletoes (extorting him for peace, then SleepingMoogle (doing the same), and then eventually Bobchillingworth. Before the Bob war though, I organized 3v1 war (with Bob and SM) on Timmy since no one really liked him and he bit off more than he could chew land-wise. When the dust settled, I repaired relations with Timmy and established myself as the clear #2 to Sandover's clear #1. Sandover became more and more of a runaway though, and due to a crazy sequence of events (drama of the highest form!), Bob knew the war was coming. Since everyone hated Sandover by this point, things were slowly moving towards a world coalition against him.

All during this time, Sandover and I kept our intel deal. There were no strings attached - the deal could be canceled at anytime - however as long as the deal was in place, we were required to share all important intel. Things were crawling towards an anti-Sandover coalition, but nothing totally concrete came immediately. Finally a mass email came up, where we all agreed on an anti-Sandover coalition. It happened rather quickly, and the next day I realized I was still under the Sandover agreement. The tricky part was that I also was required to keep those emails secret by those who sent them (Sandover and I followed those requests when they came up, so that was our exception usually). So in a mild sense, I was somewhat off the hook, however the basic knowledge that Sandover was going to get ganged up on should have been given to him. Instead, I emailed him to let him know I was canceling the agreement.

Canceling the agreement in and of itself was 100% acceptable. What was not acceptable is that I had nearly 48 hours worth of intel that I never gave to him. Once I canceled the agreement, I took a very active role in organizing the attack. Again, Sandover and I had no agreements outside of the intel thing, so both of us knew that once we canceled our intel agreement, all bets were off.

In short: I broke the intel agreement by not sharing with him details of the attack that I had rough knowledge of. The details were very vague at that point, but in the interest of not handing the game to him, I held out. The circumstances were unique though. Those who followed the game know that Sandover was in such a dominant position, that everyone was about ready to concede the game to him and be done. This attack on him was kind of a last-ditch effort to reel him in. So my two justifications were this:

1. If I told him, he would use it against those in the attack, and they would have stopped and conceded the game. Rather than instantly lose the game to someone who was literally the world villain (I'm not joking - TT, Bob, and SM all despised his civ because of stunts he pulled), I chose to keep it going.
2. I also was supposed to keep quiet on the emails floating around... So it was awfully gray how much detail I was actually required to tell him under our deal.

Lurkers who posted in my thread more or less agreed with me (didn't even get one scumbag remark) so I felt good about that. I canceled the deal (under the premise of "No thanks, I'd like to win the game"), and after an initial negative response, Sandover understood and we moved on. Lots of other things happened, but there was no bad blood for the remainder of the game.

Probably 3 months after the game finished (just recently), Sandover finally went through my thread and made comments... This was in the few days leading up to the formation of this game actually. He found the section where I explained everything about the intel agreement cancel, and he thought it was a really dirty and dishonest move. At face value, it kind of was, but you really have to have context to understand why I don't think it was. His somewhat harsh reaction surprised me honestly, as he was the only one who felt that way (even lurkers seemed to understand my actions, and the players definitely did). Several comments he made sounded as if he more or less wouldn't trust me again in another game, and then he quickly signed up for PBEM14, and the rest is history.

That's the brief version of it (not so brief, huh?), but I'd be happy to answer more questions to provide more context. Basically, coming into this game, I was somewhat worried that he would never deal with me and go out of his way to get revenge. I think that'd be somewhat childish, however it made me wary of my initial dealings with him, and it's why I'm really hesitant to tell him where I am at right now. So with all that context in mind, let's pick back up on the diplo scene with Sandover:

-----------------------------------

As a refresher, I last sent him this message:

Sandover,

Second time? Care to share what the first one was or is that top secret?

Well that's good to hear. I'm guessing it's more like I'm starting with a -2 hit maybe? I came into this game wondering whether or not I was already labeled "worst enemy." If you've already declared vendetta on me, I can live with that, however I'd like to know it before I bother spend time trying to avoid it, if that makes sense.

You are the third person I have met this game... I met Serdoa first, then I recently met Lewwyn. The only person with whom I am missing contact thus far is Gaspar. Have you met him yet? I'm fairly sure you haven't met Lewwyn or Serdoa yet, so I'm curious if I am your first contact or not.

scooter

Now for new emails, here was his reply:

Scooter,

I had you pegged for getting a religion by now. Not doing too hot on the predictions this game.

Honestly, I haven't really decided how to label you. I was going by the assumption you'd try to convince me to give you another chance, and figured I'd just react to that effort. So the ball's basically in your corner (oh the irony!) unless you want me to sleep on it and get back to you tomorrow.

I've met Gaspar, so you're second.

(He met Gaspar already! What does this mean? I'll get to my thoughts in a bit)

So he wants me to share my thoughts. See the dilemma is that I can't tell if him and I being friends in this game is even possible... If it's not possible, then I need to get him locked out with other people ASAP (Lewwyn in particular would be receptive I think). If it is possible, then I'll treat him like any other player and see how things go. So I sent him a lengthy message, hoping to see how he reacts:

Sandover,

Well I think this is the second game in a row I've managed to screw up your C&D, although I don't think I did anything unusual like swap techs like I did last game. Whoops.

Well I'll be honest and say your post-game reaction in PBEM3 was certainly sharper than I expected... I hadn't expected you to (seemingly) take offense quite like that, otherwise I probably would've just not shared it in my thread and been done with it. I think I even remembering emailing you at that time saying that that day of posts would be a very interesting read for you post-game. So I will say that your sharp reaction caught me off guard, and I hadn't expected it to bother you quite as much as it did... Perhaps it was naivety, I don't know.

So I'd say I'm more in the situation where I'm not sure how to approach things. If you thought it was so dishonorable/untrustworthy that you'd just like to immediately declare war on me in this game, then... ok? However, it seems foolish to me, first of which is because you don't even know where to find me quite yet :P, but there are definitely other reasons.

I have always been one to keep all games separate from others. SleepingMoogle and I got along quite well in PBEM3 and we were on opposite sides in PBEM7. So in general, I try to completely separate diplo between games.

Problem is that if I'm not sure that you will do the same, then it's hard for myself to trust you without the fear of you getting in a revenge strike. So we can either choose to allow past baggage to remain (and let diplo unfold around that), or we can start this game fresh, and let diplo unfold naturally like any other game. It's honestly up to you, and I'm fine with either route. Again, I honestly *was* surprised by how much it seemed to irk you, however given that it apparently did make you think of me in an unfavorable light, it does affect this game... So I guess I'd request some transparency from you as to how much it's going to affect your approach to this game. I certainly have learned since then, and I definitely wouldn't repeat something like that, however if you just don't believe me when I say that, I'd like to at least know that much.

So I guess the ball is back in your corner now.

scooter

So... We'll see where that lands us! I also sent off a really brief email to Lewwyn earlier today just to notify him of Sandover's presence:

Lewwyn,

I wanted you to know that I met Sandover this turn. I ran into his exploring warrior west of your capital... I'm not 100% sure where he's at or how far he is from you, but I'm fairly confident that he is definitely to your west and to my south.

scooter

[scooter]

Oh, one silly thing. If you are lurking this thread but you are not ded-lurking it, swing by Lewwyn's thread, comment on whatever he's posted, and tell him scooter sent you. He shot me a joking chat message saying he was jealous of all the lurkers/views my thread got, so if your name is not Pling, Dazedroyalty, or SevenSpirits, pop into his thread, say hello, and tell him I sent you.

Also, it looks like Sandover and I might chat for a few now, so I'll update on that in a bit.

[pling]

A quick thought re: Gaspar - do you think he's in "South Africa"?

& re: Sandover - I read through his comments on your PBEM3 thread again (I spotted them the other day & skim-read them then) - I hadn't read him as saying "scooter is scum & must die die die" more that he thought that specific thing was deceitful but was otherwise amused/entertained by your thread and your commentary on his diplo as it was going on. We'll see who read the tea-leaves right soon enough, I guess

[dazedroyalty]

A quick thought re: Gaspar - do you think he's in "South Africa"?

& re: Sandover - I read through his comments on your PBEM3 thread again (I spotted them the other day & skim-read them then) - I hadn't read him as saying "scooter is scum & must die die die" more that he thought that specific thing was deceitful but was otherwise amused/entertained by your thread and your commentary on his diplo as it was going on. We'll see who read the tea-leaves right soon enough, I guess

I haven't played with Sandover myself but my gut says that he is a big enough boy not to let last game color this one beyond the inevitable impressions of people that happen in any relational interactions.

That said, he's also a sneaky guy so I wouldn't want to see us jump in bed with him.

[scooter]

A quick thought re: Gaspar - do you think he's in "South Africa"?

Yes I do. That was my initial suspicion, but I'm currently chatting with Sandover and he confirmed that Gaspar is to his south. I have no idea how that's suppposed to work in terms of game balance honestly... So I wonder if there's some shenanigans going on map-wise. I'm asking Sandover that now (discretely) as I type this.

& re: Sandover - I read through his comments on your PBEM3 thread again (I spotted them the other day & skim-read them then) - I hadn't read him as saying "scooter is scum & must die die die" more that he thought that specific thing was deceitful but was otherwise amused/entertained by your thread and your commentary on his diplo as it was going on. We'll see who read the tea-leaves right soon enough, I guess

You are correct - I confirmed this with Sandover too. Sandover's hesitancy was that he felt he shouldn't just let it go, for fear of inviting it to happen again (not necessarily from me, but from anyone in general).

I haven't played with Sandover myself but my gut says that he is a big enough boy not to let last game color this one beyond the inevitable impressions of people that happen in any relational interactions.

That said, he's also a sneaky guy so I wouldn't want to see us jump in bed with him.

Generally agree with this. I actually do generally trust him pretty well if he's locked into an agreement, I just wanted to make sure early on that he wasn't declaring vendetta against me, which would mean I need to jump into an agreement with Lewwyn quickly.

I'll try to do a better summary of my chat with Sandover later tonight. We're just lightly chatting now about various things going on in the game, trying to learn more. The tone has improved dramatically, which is good.

[scooter]

Responded to Serdoa:

Serdoa,

Thanks for the screenshot!

Okay, I've talked with Sandover, so I have a better idea of where everyone is. Something more like this:

- -sc - - - - - - se
- (water) - - - - -
- - - - - - le - -
- -sa - - - - - - -
- - ga - - - - - -


Kind of oddly shaped, but that's what I gathered from talking to Sandover.

Sandover and Lewwyn *seem* to be roughly the same distance apart as we are... Though I'm not 100% sure on that yet.

scooter