Rules questions

[Catwalk]

I have read the rules section of the Imperium homepage, and I have a few questions/suggestions:

1) Would it be considered cheating to access the tech point count function of EDMOO? This does nothing that I would not be able to do manually, as it's easy to calculate the interest (and 1 click on the tech screen = 2% of the total budget). I run no risk of accessing any other information in EDMOO while doing this, as there is no information on the main screen or the tech screen.

2) Is missile abuse 100% legal? Hit'n'run raids on bases or fleets, and wimpy missile boat defense of bases makes the game way too easy. I like playing with missiles, but the poor AI and the way base attacks are set up make missiles overpowered. Beams and bombs also require more skill, IMO. Right now I play without missiles on ships at all. This does not them make them too underpowered, missile bases are still strong enough to warrant missile research.

3) Diplomatic victory. I know I'll probably run into massive disagreement on this one, but is it really rewarding to be able to win through diplomacy? Diplomacy is a fundamental aspect to winning the game by conquest, so it's important even if diplomatic victories are not used. I think diplomatic defeat is a great feature, though. Ideally, being elected leader should have been more like what it is in SMAC.

Thank you for your time.

[Maniac Marshall]

1) I suspect that the answer to this is that you can't use it. I'm basing this on the baning of Mapstat from the Civ epics. It actually didn't tell you anything you couldn't have done manually if I remember correctly (I never used it so I might be wrong), although it was a MUCH more involved process to count every pop point and land/coast square on a map to find the domination threshold than ir is to do simple intrest calculations for sure. Fortunately conquests sort of has a "built in mapstat" so it's a non issue there now.

2) Yes, abusable missiles/bombs is currently allowed . That doesn't mean you are obligated to use it, just like you aren't obligated to use the wait button, the missile backup exploit, the single missile/bomb rack to allow extra movement options, or any of the other "exploits" that you feel are broken. Persoanlly I'm with you on the missile/bomb ship turnaround trick being too powerful to be used over enemy or neutral systems. If your using it over your own systems I have no problem with it since I figure the boats landed for more supplies or had them shiped up by shuttlecraft between turns. I posted my own personal limitations for this in one of my game reports so won't repost it here.

3) Sometimes yes and sometimes no. As a point of reference, I submit Sirians Kitten Kaboodle game, or basically any game when staring down runaway Psilons. I'm going to guarantee there will be Imperiums where diplomatic victory WILL NOT be an option. On the other hand, I don't feel this should allways be taken off the table. If you want to take it off the table for you personally, then thats fine. I don't allways take the first diplomatic victory that comes along, but sometimes I do depending on the game situation, results of recent games, and sometimes the ammount of time I have available for a game.

Well, thats my unofficial 2 cents worth anyway.

-Maniac

[Sirian]

1) Would it be considered cheating to access the tech point count function of EDMOO? This does nothing that I would not be able to do manually, as it's easy to calculate the interest (and 1 click on the tech screen = 2% of the total budget). I run no risk of accessing any other information in EDMOO while doing this, as there is no information on the main screen or the tech screen.

That's a can of worms best left closed. Two reasons.
1) The time it would consume to issue rulings on a case by case basis. (Which utils are allowed vs not).
2) Too much detail work can spoil the experience. In my view, some things are best left a bit fuzzy.

2) Is missile abuse 100% legal? Hit'n'run raids on bases or fleets, and wimpy missile boat defense of bases makes the game way too easy.

We're early in the Imperium process. My approach so far has been one of "as few rules as necessary". We will probably be seeing more rules appear over time, and this is a prime candidate for regulation. However, we have a veteran community here, and our values are such that substance prevails over appearance in how we view results. So anybody who comes in and exploits rules to the max isn't going to gain anything substantive. "It won't impress the locals," so to speak.

I'm not ready to rush to condemn missiles. There are legit uses for them on both offense and defense. What if you don't get a decent gun in part of the tech tree? What if you get the missiles for bases and before you get to a gun you realize you have to build ships you weren't expecting to need? If I do end up writing a rule, I'd want it to fix the problem without breaking something else. That usually easier said than done.

3) Diplomatic victory.

Maniac Marshall's reply was a good one. I'll leave it at that for now.


Thanks for forwarding your concerns. We do listen, even if you can't always tell in the short term.


- Sirian

[Catwalk]

Thank you for your replies.

1) Would it really be difficult to judge which utils are legal and which are not? I'm not aware that there are any other utils that gives you this kind of info without revealing anything else, so I don't see anything else that should be permissable. But I guess I'll just start honing my adding skills, even if I'm going to feel silly

2) I think using it over your own system is the more abusable method, as you don't even need a substantial amount of ships. Just a handful of BC can effectively double the power of your bases, when assaulting enemy fleets elsewhere you do need a substantial fleet, and even then it's going to be slow.

[Maniac Marshall]

Regarding point 2, that would be true if the AI sent multiple staggerd attack waves at the same planet or 2 of your planets very near to each other, but how often does that happen? Ceartianlly not never, but not all that often either. I don't see how it would be used in conjunction with bases very often. In my expierience, missile boats arent very good defenders, but then I don't build missile cruisers (or any kind of cruisers for that matter) or put 5 shot racks on boats very often, so perhaps I'm underestimating the potential here?

I guess uppon thinking hard about it, you could be using it to whittle down an enemy fleet parked in orbit above one of your planets, but thats not something I've ever really done ad infinitum or as a point of strategy. Most often when I do the turnaround its at a planet I just acquired that turn via ground action. I would think using a small fast fleet of missile boats/bombers to trash foreign bases or fleets, then run, then turnaround, and repeat would be the more common useage. I also find it far more logical that your boats are able to "reload" in your own system than in one 3 warp turns from your nearest system.

When you come right down to it, the whole "stay in system" thing is considered exploitave by some. Maybe we should try an imperium at minimum conquest only with no ship turnaround allowed (or maybe even forced retreat to your nearest system just like the AI is forced to do) and see how folks like it?

Anyone else have any thoughts?

-Maniac

[Factoid]

Hi Maniac,

I also find it far more logical that your boats are able to "reload" in your own system than in one 3 warp turns from your nearest system.

When you come right down to it, the whole "stay in system" thing is considered exploitave by some. Maybe we should try an imperium at minimum conquest only with no ship turnaround allowed (or maybe even forced retreat to your nearest system just like the AI is forced to do) and see how folks like it?

Yes, I'd like to see forced retreat (no redirection, take what you are given), and even one where we use "Auto" combat, though that might be too frustrating for words. Perhaps one with no "wait"?

I have rationalised missile/bomb resupply at hostile systems as being provided by a non-combat logistics tail, financed by ship maintenance cost. Think of it as fast freighters that hang out-system. After all, hostile fleets have no trouble hanging over my planets turn after turn firing missiles and dropping bombs (I wish they did have trouble). And who exactly resupplies the Guardian's Scatter Pack X?

Cheers,
Factoid.

[Catwalk]

I don't see how it would be used in conjunction with bases very often

DaveV explained it in detail here. You don't use it for hit'n'run like you'd do over neutral or hostile planets, you use it for delaying the time when your enemies will be able to target your bases. And for this purpose, it matters nil how many ships you have. A single nuclear missile will make them back off for a turn if they have shield 3 or less. With hit'n'run you still need to have enough ships to damage them, or it'll take too long. But with this method you can double or triple the effectiveness of your bases with practically no cost (other than having to save designs for it).

I don't think turn-around is the main problem. Resupplying bombs isn't as abusive as resupplying missiles, nor is it abusive to let inferior fleets stay in a system to wait for reinforcements. I always found it annoying that I had to time the arrival of my ships so that they went to combat simultaneously, and if half of them arrived sooner I was out of luck.

It's also a question of whether realism/logic/common sense should take precedence over gameplay. Resupplying missiles and bombs defies all logic, but MOO isn't realistic enough that I feel this violates the integrity of the game in any way. There are many such quirks and I have no problem with them at all unless they throw things out of balance.

As for EDMOO, I think there is a crucial difference between this and the Mapstat example mentioned. Mapstat didn't offer any information that you couldn't gather manually at any time, so it wasn't as crucial. If you lose track of your research, it is very difficult to retrieve that information (you have to mess around with the light bulbs and see when they change from one state to another, and I'd feel REALLY silly doing that). I know I sound like a whiny kid right now, but would it really be so bad to allow this? In another post it was argued that a regulation on missile usage would be difficult to enforce, so there was no point. Surely that must apply here too, right? I wouldn't have a problem if the size of the bonus was dependent on investment (so that you got 5x points for the first 1%, 4x points until 2%, 3x points until 5%, 2x points until 10%, etc, with flowing intervals). The way it is now, you either get double returns or singular returns. Think about how construction works, compared with Civ. All BC are used, none are wasted. While researching, I do waste RP that do not yield double returns if I could have invested them in another field where they did yield double returns. Pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease?

*stops bothering people, hoping they've been worn done to the point of submission*

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Factoid@Sep 7 2004, 11:20 PM
I have rationalised missile/bomb resupply at hostile systems as being provided by a non-combat logistics tail, financed by ship maintenance cost.  Think of it as fast freighters that hang out-system.  After all, hostile fleets have no trouble hanging over my planets turn after turn firing missiles and dropping bombs (I wish they did have trouble).  And who exactly resupplies the Guardian's Scatter Pack X?

I had always rationalized that the ships in question had a crude, slow, but effective energy-matter conversion device or some such that would allow them to make their own ammunition, albeit slowly. Too slowly to be used in battle, but after all, every turn is supposed to be a year. It doesn't stretch my imagination too much that the ships could do a microjump a "short" distance outsystem where they would be effectively untraceable, wait there for a year while they restocked, and return the following year.

[Maniac Marshall]

THAT use of missile boats is an exploit, listed as so or not. I would never EVER use the missile backup exploit, just like I don't use any other things that are really broken.

I think we allready had that discussion that using missile boats that way should be avoided, though, I'm not going to bother to reread the thread. I thought we were talking about missile boats designed for legitimate purposes, not ones designed to cheat or bait the AI .

Personally I wouldn't respect the gameplay of anyone who used that tactic, and I doubit anyone else here would either. So while people are technically free to use that at the moment at least, I really doubit (m)any will.

-Maniac

[Catwalk]

Is it possible to establish a conduct that distinguishes between exploit and legitimate use?

1) On base defence, never fire missiles at ships that will back up
2) Never target bases with missiles

That makes missiles fairly balanced. The first point is difficult to follow, though, especially when fighting fast ships. What do you do?