Gaspar: I think Commodore's going to come close to flipping Puerco Szechuan
NobleHelium: wait no i slept instead
i have no idea where that is
that's one of the problems with your naming scheme
Gaspar: the northern city on the border with Commodore
NobleHelium: when everything is arroz con pollo and pollo con arroz it's hard to remember
Gaspar: Yeah
I don't love it either
NobleHelium: well just put more units over there
Gaspar: but I thought it was funny at the time
NobleHelium: what % is it at
well it is amusing that spanish-chinese restaurants exist
they're so disparate
Gaspar: yeah
NobleHelium: well other than the fact that both cultures love rice
which was surprising to me when i first started taking spanish
Gaspar: Its still 58% me, but I lost another 2 first ring tiles
NobleHelium: i guess that city name means szechuan pork
Gaspar: yes
NobleHelium: anyways
just put nearby units in there
Gaspar: I did
sucks though
that was a good city
and now its starving down to worthless
NobleHelium: did you whip it
Gaspar: not in slavery
NobleHelium: did you do the mist method and run max specs
since you can only starve 1 pop a turn!
although i'm not sure if it's worth it if you won't pop a GP
you have sistine though i think?
Gaspar: I'm running specs where it runs out of tiles
yeah I do
NobleHelium: well i'm saying
no point in working a mainly food tile
if it's starving
not sure if you have any of those though
Gaspar: yeah, but the 2/1/8 tiles are better than any specs :P
NobleHelium: well
maybe you have a farm
or livestock
Gaspar: theres a deer tile thats debatable I suppose
NobleHelium: well just treat it as
Gaspar: 5/1/0
NobleHelium: whatever hammers
it is
that's not worth it
would you work an engineer
or a 1h tile
Gaspar: engineer slots are maxed
NobleHelium: well run a priest then
Gaspar: suppose I could run a something else
NobleHelium: mister caste system
anyway obviously you don't have to run a priest
point is priest is absolutely better
Gaspar: no priest slots, I never researched priesthood
NobleHelium: until you're done starving
oh yeah CS doesn't give priest slots whoops
Gaspar: I'm in emancipation actually
I should revolt CS I guess
since all my cottages are towns
NobleHelium: i imagine eman is just for happy
yes
Gaspar: and nobody else is in eman anymore
though theres a small pleasure in fucking with commodore and mackoti
NobleHelium: i doubt you can fuck with mister culture slider
Gaspar: hrm
I wonder if its worth swapping merc
I'm getting fuck all from foreign tr now
NobleHelium: why is that
Gaspar: since comm is in merc
NobleHelium: oh
what about mackoti
Gaspar: hes in SP
NobleHelium: so?
Gaspar: so I'm getting some from him
NobleHelium: communists trade too!
anyways
how many cities you got
and how many foreign TRs
Gaspar: I'm getting mostly foreign TRs I guess
NobleHelium: just a minute ago that was "i'm getting fuck all from foreign TRs"
Gaspar: well
a lot less than I used to :P
mercs only worth it
in rep
NobleHelium: well
decent with sistine
Gaspar: yeah
NobleHelium: and if you are doing empire-wide GP spam
say in a GA
Gaspar: Well, I'm going to fire GA in 2t
NobleHelium: well will that make a difference
ios the question
anyway are you in FM?
Gaspar: Yeah
NobleHelium: do you have communism
Gaspar: corp cost reduction, not sure what thats worth really
no
NobleHelium: oh yeah
forgot about the corp
it's worth a decent amount
the 1 TR might be worth more
anyways stay in FM
you lose +1 tr per city, corp cost reduc x2, AND foreign TRs
Gaspar: yeah
NobleHelium: remember merc increases maintenance too
Gaspar: right
theres really nothing good in the religion column for me right now either
NobleHelium: are you done with factories
Gaspar: Though I'm debating if its worth pacifism in the next GA
NobleHelium: and drydocks
Gaspar: no
almost though
NobleHelium: well when are you switching
nao or in 2t
Gaspar: mack landed broadway this turn btw
2t
NobleHelium: did you windmill those mines
Gaspar: id debate switching now
simply because eman is worthless
yes
NobleHelium: i realized recently thanks to nicolae
that SP workshops
er
that SP watermills
can easily be better than SP workshops in some cases
post-elec of course
Gaspar: yeah
alright
NobleHelium: anyways
either pacifism
Gaspar: im going to stick with emanc for now
ill swap cs and pacifism in 2t probably
NobleHelium: or free religion
Gaspar: cs for use
*sure
or FR yeah
NobleHelium: you are popping GA when you finish elec?
Gaspar: yeah
NobleHelium: and where did mackoti build broadway
like are we talking best or near best production city
or some middling city
Gaspar: his moai city
NobleHelium: ok so pretty good then but probably not best
Gaspar: i have vis on it actually
25h base
NobleHelium: like
vis
or infiltration
investigate i mean
Gaspar: investigate
NobleHelium: infiltration is smac term heh
way to not notice it before!
Gaspar: i dont think I had it last turn
NobleHelium: i'm just trying to guess
where he would build cristo redentor
Gaspar: investigate is fucked up in its accounting
hes doing eiffel in mutal right now
NobleHelium: ok so he has radio then
is mutal + or - 25h
Gaspar: im guess he'll do CR in his workshop city near me
NobleHelium: wait
how is his moai city
only 25h
is he done with his GA
Gaspar: base I said
finished last turn
NobleHelium: well
what is that workshop city doing
Gaspar: moai city has forge
NobleHelium: since you can see it
Gaspar: no factory
plus SP
cap has forge & factory
plus bureau
NobleHelium: what is workshop border city building
Gaspar: 27 base hammers
nothing, finished something last turn
NobleHelium: oh
we'll see i guess
Gaspar: that gets 49 base hammers though
NobleHelium: what is industrialism ETA showing right now
Gaspar: and has factory and forge
NobleHelium: well
your cap beats it for sure
Gaspar: yeah
NobleHelium: plus SPI bonus
Gaspar: and I get half price
NobleHelium: well it's not half
that's what firaxis wants you to think
Gaspar: i get +100% on it, sorry :P
NobleHelium: anyways
what is industrialism ETA atm
the tooltip
Gaspar: 3t on tooltip
NobleHelium: ok
so you could pop the GA it after elec
-it
what were you saying is your rationale
Gaspar: is it worth banging radio first
well
NobleHelium: for activating the NAP and then not declaring immediately when you can
Gaspar: I need to hit comm soon really is all
and he wont hit me
since all he wants is time
so i feel like making him nervous is good
NobleHelium: well
the "i just need to defend so i won't attack" reasoning is flawed
since attacking can make defense easier
Gaspar: yeah
NobleHelium: not that i'm saying commodore will think that
Gaspar: i dunno
how many units do you think I need
before I attack?
NobleHelium: i have no fucking clue
Gaspar: lol
NobleHelium: i don't know waht commodore has
Gaspar: well
NobleHelium: you've been sort of playing the game for 150 turns
Gaspar: i have fuck all nothing
NobleHelium: i've been not at all playing the game and not even getting updates for it
Gaspar: and he has 300k more soldier points than me
he doesn't have steel yet
his army is mostly 3x promoted cavs
few rifles here and there
NobleHelium: are you planning to use siege
or just tanks
Gaspar: just tanks
NobleHelium: well
i say spam those tanks
until you see your power higher than his by a decent amount
Gaspar: in my head
NobleHelium: tank is 25k power
Gaspar: if I drop 20 tanks
NobleHelium: what percentage
is 300k
Gaspar: I feel like he can't handle that
NobleHelium: like how much % is he higher
or rather just tell me what your pure power is
currently
Gaspar: 694k
NobleHelium: ok
Gaspar: he has 994k
NobleHelium: so he's got like 40% more than you
Gaspar: yeah
and if you factor military techs
NobleHelium: 20 tanks isa pretty good number
Gaspar: probably worse than that even lol
NobleHelium: ok
so maybe more
25-30 tanks
how long does 30 tanks take to build
Gaspar: well
NobleHelium: plus 7-8 transports
so maybe 28 tanks
Gaspar: tanks are 120h
NobleHelium: and 7 transports
Gaspar: cap and HE city
can 1t them
Probably can 2t them in 2 other cities
everything else is more like 4t
well
I have 1 transport now
3 more finish EOT
I can easily have all the transports I need before industrialism comes in
NobleHelium:
anyways
you are giving me piecemeal numbers
i assume you are just talking to yourself
to calculate it
i'm not going to calculate it for you so figure it out :P
Gaspar: well
I'm mostly just talking through it with you
NobleHelium: do you have a more accurate ETA
on when commodore wins
Gaspar: I want your input but yes I'm figuring stuff out on my own as well
well
NobleHelium: well i'm not paying that much attention to your numbers
ok
you sasid everything else
is 4t a tank
so how many cities you got
Gaspar: commodores popped 3 artists in last 6t
NobleHelium: and is that 4t in the GA
Gaspar: plus he has at least 1 on ice
hes gaining roughly 700 cpt in his legendaries
so
his lagging city
is only 5200 culture
the other two are ~8k
say he ends up with 7 artists
2 each plus 1 extra in the lagging city
so he needs to get to 20k essentially
thats ~12k away
NobleHelium: 12t?
Gaspar: at 700/t
NobleHelium: oh
so 17t we say
Gaspar: 17t?
yeah-ish
NobleHelium: is he losing gold
every turn
Gaspar: yeah, but not a lot
hes got 1600 saved
NobleHelium: well when does he run out of gold
on current trajectory
Gaspar: havent been paying close enough attention to that
NobleHelium: well just open the last save
and check his gold
Gaspar: 1731 last turn
1622 this
legendaries last turn:
7834, 7710, 4924
this turn:
8479, 8322, 5253
hmm
NobleHelium: ok
so
Gaspar: he needs another cathedral or something in the last one
NobleHelium: 100 gold a turn
which means he has basically enough gold
for the rest of his run
that's not good
Gaspar: yeah
NobleHelium: is he still teching
Gaspar: yeah
NobleHelium: so is that 4t a tank in a GA?
Gaspar: no
thats out of GA
NobleHelium: do you estimate it going to 2t? or 3t?
Gaspar: looks like 2t
back of the napkin math but should be able to break 60 hpt in several cities in GA
lets say 2 1t cities
6-7 2t cities
maybe another 5 3t cities
so 6t should be enough to have an invasion stack
of course
I only get 6t of GA
NobleHelium: 6x3=18
5x2=10
2x6=12
ok then
that's 40 tanks
well
Gaspar: Can drop 25-30 at the legendary
NobleHelium: you use part of the GA
on industrialism
Gaspar: 10 up north to trick him into thinking its my objective
NobleHelium: nothing upgrade to tanks so no prebuild
where is "up north"
Gaspar: faun, the fucking city taking all my tiles
NobleHelium: that's fucking stupid
i dunno i'm commodore i'm 10 turns from winning the game
do i give a fuck about you taking my border city that's 30 tiles away from anything relevant
Gaspar: well
its relevant
he just popped an artist there
NobleHelium: which is now moving to the cap
Gaspar: its big so he can starve the shit out of it for artists
NobleHelium: do you have anything non-tanks
and are you saying you would show those tanks first
before landing
Gaspar: Hmm
maybe cobble together some infantry and cannons
throw that up north
make him defend against the wrong thing
NobleHelium: anyway
Gaspar: since I can build that stuff now
NobleHelium: what about mackoti
any word on what he's going to do
Gaspar: well
he has a NAP
NobleHelium: wtf are you building now
Gaspar: he hasn't talked to me
NobleHelium: does the NAP end before 17t
well talk to him
can't avoid it
other than not playing diplo games with mackoti
Gaspar: lol
NobleHelium: not in this instance anyways
so do you know whether the NAP ends before 17t
Gaspar: I believe the nap ends in around 15t
but ill check
NobleHelium: ok
so mackoti probably not reliable
well
Gaspar: right now im building infantry and boats
btw
except places that still need factories
NobleHelium: i think if you tech industrialism
and then pop GA
swap into slavery/nationhood
draft/slave the shit out of anything that can't 2t tanks
then commodore goes now
er
commodore goes down
question is, does that win you the game
or do you just hand it to mackoti
Gaspar: well thats the trick
if I slave/draft myself too hard
i mean right now
I outtech him
but hes a billion beakers ahead
if I were to conquer most of commodores empire
then yeah, I think I'd win
because commodores shit is well developed
unlike TTs garbage
that mackotis been taking
problem is
with all this culture bullshit
id pretty much have to eliminate him
to see any benefit
even with a tech advantage
tough to eliminate someone with an empire that large at this stage
and once he starts to go down
mackoti will no doubt jump in and get some for himself
but what choice do I have really?
if commodore wins culture I have no chance to win

how many xp you need for commando? 10?
doesnt matter i guess, commodore doesnt have railroads
also your head is on fire
NobleHelium: i went to brush my teeth
anyways this chat is a lot like krill's chats with darrell and to a lesser extent rego sometimes
so you should post it when we're done
anyways
here's what i would do
talk to mackoti
get him to put down a concrete pledge
about what he's going to do about commodore's impending culture victory and exactly when
how many tanks, how many transports, he attacks where
tell him he needs to give you a firm pledge to that effect
Gaspar: before you finish
NobleHelium: otherwise threaten to do nothing and let commodore win
Gaspar: I want to send the turn so commodore can play
if I wait on the GA until after industrialism is in
NobleHelium: and then you offer to provide something commiserate with what mackoti is providing
Gaspar: i should probably revolt caste now
NobleHelium: well ideally you should have talked to mackoti already
Gaspar: well hes not up yet
NobleHelium: how much overflow
out of elec
Gaspar: well
I'm at 519/4507
I make 1763/turn
NobleHelium: er commensurate
not commiserate
how about you just look at the tech bar
and tell me how much of the bar gets filled at eot
%wise
and how much was overflow
from previous
Gaspar: electricity is next turn
NobleHelium: you mean EOT?
there is no next turn
either this EOT or next EOT
next turn means nothing
Gaspar: at this EOT
NobleHelium: ok
Gaspar: I will still have 1t to elec
NobleHelium: so how much of the bar
is dark green right now
%wise
before EOT
Gaspar: 10-15
NobleHelium: ok
and how much is light green
Gaspar: 50%
NobleHelium: ok
so you get about 10-15% overflow out of elec
Gaspar: yeah
roughly
NobleHelium: ok
that's about 500 beakers
you make about 2k beakers per turn
well
i am looking at tech costs for 29
so that's not right
either way
roughly 9% overflow into industrialism
and you make about 1/3
ok
so 3t industrialism
unless GA
Gaspar: out of GA yeah
NobleHelium: GA cuts industrialism time by 1t
Gaspar: yeah
NobleHelium: what does revolting to caste this turn give you
does it let you tech faster
or more GPs
Gaspar: wont make much of a difference
I pop a GP this turn in NE city
NobleHelium: are you planning two GAs in a row
Gaspar: only if I get lucky
I need 1 sci, 1 merchand
*t
NobleHelium: well
if you revolt this turn
then you can revolt again right after industrialism comes in? or 1t after
Gaspar: 1t after
NobleHelium: will revolting to caste speed up your next GP (other than the one popping this turn) or the one after that?
Gaspar: this GP is 804
how much will next one be, i forget how that calculates
just 100 more?
NobleHelium: 100 more on normal for first 10
then 200 more
so 67 and 135 or whatever
804 is 1200
so that is beyond 10
so 135 more
i believe
not 100%
Gaspar: so 939
NobleHelium: well 134 more
rather
938
Gaspar: okay
NobleHelium: 1072 for the one after that
Gaspar: so I can get ~25 base gpp/t in NE city
50 with NE
75 with GA
100 with pacifism
so best case would 9t for another there
cap is 11t away
NobleHelium: that's 25 without CS?
Gaspar: thats with CS
w/o CS its 16
NobleHelium: what exactly are you waiting on CS for? so you can take pacifism also?
Gaspar: well
I might want Nationalism and/or Slavery
NobleHelium: well you can't take slavery with caste
Gaspar: i understand that :P
NobleHelium: how long does it take for you to land the tanks
Gaspar: Well
NobleHelium: after you've built them
Gaspar: Assume 2t total transit to port city
NobleHelium: ok
Gaspar: then lets see
NobleHelium: so we say 5t to industrialism
6t to build
say 3t to transport
oh
to port city
misread that
i thought you meant from your borders to commodore
Gaspar: 2t from my borders to commodore as well
NobleHelium: ok
so 2t to port city and 2t to commodore landing
15t
Gaspar: yeah
NobleHelium: that's way too close
ok so you pop GA to speed up industrialism then i think...you might be able to pop it after a 1t delay
i don't know
you can do some calcs. or do a test GA pop if you're comfortable with that
anyways
i gotta sleep
Gaspar: Okay
Appreciate the help
NobleHelium: laters
i hope it was helpful
Gaspar: It was, thanks