Is that character a variant? (I just love getting asked that in channel.) - Charis

Create an account  

 
Rogue Revival

Four Rogues was one of my favorite ways to play Diablo. I even managed to talk Cy, Jaffa, and Jester into a run of them back in 2002, where we (barely) 3-dotted a quartet.

I tried playing a "D2 Rogue" back in v1.05 in early 01. Sorceress using a bow, enchant, teleport, shiver armor. The chief problem at the time was lack of Attack Rating along with the way the mlvl curve derailed early on in Nightmare. In D1, a strong rogue almost never misses, and without that effect in play, the D2 version just didn't quite hold up.


Along comes the 1.1 patch... Some things have changed. There were no Eth runes in vanilla D2. There were no elemental damage charms or circlets, fewer cube recipes. Enchant now boosts attack rating, nearly to 3x, which while still not truly Rogue-ish, does seem to make a "D2 Rogue" playable.

In D1, the Rogue had enough mana to use some spells, and enough magic to mature a number of spells to a decent level, especially with the aid of "reading glasses" or Enchanted shrines. She was a poor man's warrior or mage, though. As warrior, her incredible dex could make for almost flawless blocking, but her damage rate was not strong, while as warrior her spellcasting animation was slower, and she had less mana. The bow was her main strength, if played to the max.

There were Red Rogues and Blue Rogues. Reds would run without mana shield, and rely very heavily on teleport. They had less total life, but ironically, could use magic more liberally because they had more precise control over how much mana they had left. Blue Rogues ran with mana shield. They had more combined life, but if the shield went down, they'd have to recast it, and a really bad hit that takes down the shield also means no mana left for teleporting out of there... a mean combination in a pinch. Each type of rogue build had its strong points, and both were fun to play.


After getting to know the 1.1 patch in recent times, I think I can reliably build a fun variant that can capture some of the spirit of the D1 Rogue. So here we go.


CONCEPT

The Sorceress class embodies most of the magic skills from the original Diablo. Key among these is teleport. The D2 Amazon is rooted to the spot and relies on her pet to tank for her. This combined with all the bow related skills means she doesn't play like the D1 Rogue at all. Tactically, some things carry over, but strategically and in terms of gameplay... no. It's not a match. The D1 Rogue had sorcerous powers at a lower level than a true sorcerer, had teleport mobility, and had only normal attack type. Thus the sorcie is the closest match. She can teleport, support herself with "limited" magic, and must use normal attack.


DEXTERITY

Approximately half of your attribute points should be assigned to Dexterity. You should be able to block at the rate shown on a shield, or better. (Some leeway is allowed, temporarily. If you need more strength, for example, to use a key piece of equipment, you can slack off on dex for a level or two, but you need to catch it back up afterward.)


BOWS

Your bow is your primary weapon. Crossbows are allowed, but keep in mind that Enchant damage will be independent of bow damage or dexterity, and will be more effective with higher attack rates.


MELEE WEAPONS

Rogues may keep two bows in their weapon slots, or may carry any weapon type they please in the second slot. This includes throwing potions, throwing weapons, and melee weapons, as well as a second bow. Shields are also allowed. A rogue can swap and "go melee" any time she pleases. With all that dexterity, blocking may even be useful. In a team situation, some rogues tanking with shields while others shoot from behind is perfectly acceptable, but no rogue should forsake her bow entirely, so "melee-only" rogues are not acceptable. Since all Rogues will know how to teleport, none should ever "need" a tank to protect her.


ENCHANT

All D2 Rogues are to max Enchant as soon as possible. This because the AR boost is needed, and the fire damage doesn't hurt either.


TELEPORT

All D2 Rogues must obtain the Teleport skill. How much to use it is player's discretion.


PETS

No pets. Sorry. No mercs!


PRIMARY MAGIC SKILL

Each Rogue may obtain a primary magic skill. This will be her special spell, used to supplement her fighting prowess, take down physical immunes, and give her a means of corpse recovery "in extremis" other than quitting and rejoining the game. ONLY ONE primary skill per character is allowed. Primary skills are unlimited in skill level.

A Rogue may pick one primary skill from the following list of options:
* Firebolt
* Icebolt
* Charged Bolt
* Inferno
* Frost Nova
* Ice Blast
* Fireball
* Lightning


SECONDARY MAGIC SKILL

A Rogue may also select one Secondary skill, under the following restrictions:
1) Each secondary skill endures a maximum skill level restriction.
2) Secondary skills MAY NOT exceed 50% of the current skill level of the character's primary skill.

The following skills are available as secondary skills, with the applicable level caps:

* Nova, up to slvl 10.
* Firewall, up to slvl 8.
* Chain Lightning, up to slvl 10.
* Glacial Spike, up to slvl 10.
* Meteor, up to slvl 5.
* Thunderstorm, up to slvl 5.
* Blizzard, up to slvl 5.
* Hydra, up to slvl 8.
* Frozen Orb, up to slvl 5.

NOTE: during the final Hell run for fourth dot, some skills (like Thunderstorm) may be unusable in the "friendly fire" environment!


MASTERIES

Cold or Lightning Mastery may not exceed slvl 10. No restriction on Fire Mastery.


+SKILL ITEMS

Not allowed. Repeat: NOT ALLOWED. (Exception: initial staff as a weapon ONLY, until it is replaced.)


STATIC FIELD and BLAZE

Not allowed except as prereq. Do not use these skills!


ITEMS WITH CHARGES

Knock yourself out. However, if you need a recharge, you have to pay your own way.



RED ROGUES

* MAY NOT add to Energy!
* Must run with more life than mana. (Not counting Act One grace period in normal difficulty.)
* Must max out a cold armor of their choice before entering Hell Difficulty.
* May not learn nor use Energy Shield.


BLUE ROGUES

* MAY NOT add to Vitality!
* Must run with more mana than life (Exception: grace period until reaching clvl 24).
* Cold armor is allowed but optional. How much and when is player's discretion.
* Must learn Energy Shield.
* Must use Energy Shield at ALL times (after reaching clvl 24, of course).
* Must get Telekinesis to slvl 7 before entering Nightmare difficulty, and slvl 14 before entering Hell.
* Must get Energy Shield to slvl 3 before Nightmare and slvl 7 before Hell.

NOTE: Blue Rogue rules edited to reflect need for Telekinesis synergy to make Energy Shield effective!


ROGUE REVIVAL TEAM VARIANT

* Weapons, not magic, are a sister's primary tools. Any Rogue who kills more foes with her magic than with her weaponry is a disgrace to the sisterhood. Do not disgrace yourself in the eyes of your sisters!
* Rogues are a tight sisterhood. They may not play with any characters except sister Rogues. (This means they play only with fellow team members, in private team games. No "passersby" or "guests", no joining RBD games or AB games, etc.)
* Only Rogues are allowed in the sisterhood! No Amazons, no Paladins, no regular Sorcies, etc.
* If a Rogue "leaves" the sisterhood, she may play with other characters but never return to the team.
* No twinking. Use what you can find, buy, or make for yourself. This is a pure team concept.
* No "variant within the variant". You can run a rogue solo any way you like, but no macho stuff when playing as part of a team. Follow the rules and play within them to your full potential.
* Each Rogue should be viable solo, allowing players who miss a night (and any quests) to catch up on their own.
* Any number of players may play, up to the maxium 8 of course. Since Rogues are all the same -- except for Red or Blue, items, and magic skill choices -- team members may be added or subtracted at any time without disrupting the effectiveness of fellow team members.
* Any late-starting players who are trying to "catch up" and "join the team" must build their chars solo, in isolation. There are no exceptions to the purity concept. If you are to prove yourself to your sisters and join the order, you must show discipline and commitment!
* Although this team variant is highly flexible, it is not meant to be played in "pickup" fashion. Any true team variant requires regular gaming nights and scheduled activity.


4-DOTTING THE TEAM

Completing Normal earns the first dot, Nightmare the second, Hell the third. If the team 3-dots as a group and players want to continue, then restart Hell in unpartied fashion and go hostile with all fellow Rogues. Complete Hell in "Friendly Fire", played D1 style, to earn that "fourth dot". Since all chars will have completed the quests already, REMAIN HOSTILE AT ALL TIMES. None of that "party up for quests" stuff. lol

Be careful not to shoot your sisters in the back! eek And don't overdo those secondary magic skills, either. hammer This isn't meant to be a "beyond naked" type of experience. lol


- Sirian
Fortune favors the bold.
Reply

Heh, already played a character much like this -- my slacker enchantress sorcy.

Some questions:
- You said max fire mastery is allowed. What about warmth, what restrictions are placed on that?

- Are you planning to start up a team using these rules?
Reply

Indeed, Sirian -

Are you going to organize a team anytime soon? If so, count me in as a Red Rogue!

Cheers,
Hawkmoon
Reply

Hello, this is Amplisa from the Local 1134 Rogues Union.

As per union contract and in accordance with Law 87838291 any Rogue Variant must include use of actual rogue mercenaries or else the Legion of Greiz will be employed to go break your legs. Failure to include the Sisterhood in such activities will result in a fresh new 90 degree angle in your shins.

NO SCABS!!

Thank you in advance, Amplisa.
[Image: vipersig.jpg]
Reply

Does that mean this will be a rogue rogue revival?

If Otoyk were to join, would it be a rogue rogue rogue revival?
Reply

Echoing the questions raised above, are you planning on running such a Rogue group soon Sirian? If so, I would very much be interested in taking part. (And no, I don't just play Civ3 :laugh: )

I played the earliest versions of Diablo2 quite a bit, but don't know much about the more recent changes. I only bought the Expansion a couple weeks ago. So while I have a lot of D2 experience, it's all badly out of date, kind of like someone who hasn't played Civ3 since the 1.17f patch and would now be trying to pick things up. I played Diablo a lot too, but that was even longer ago; I don't think I've played Diablo since 1998. Most anyone reading this forum probably has drastically more knowledge of both games than I do. But, uh, if that's not a problem, I'd be happy to join in this venture. Just beware of less-than optimal moves at times. smoke :D
Follow Sullla: Website | YouTube | Livestream | Twitter | Discord
Reply

Quote:Originally posted by Sullla@Sep 14 2004, 12:15 PM
Echoing the questions raised above, are you planning on running such a Rogue group soon Sirian? If so, I would very much be interested in taking part. (And no, I don't just play Civ3 :laugh: )

I played the earliest versions of Diablo2 quite a bit, but don't know much about the more recent changes. I only bought the Expansion a couple weeks ago. So while I have a lot of D2 experience, it's all badly out of date, kind of like someone who hasn't played Civ3 since the 1.17f patch and would now be trying to pick things up. I played Diablo a lot too, but that was even longer ago; I don't think I've played Diablo since 1998. Most anyone reading this forum probably has drastically more knowledge of both games than I do. But, uh, if that's not a problem, I'd be happy to join in this venture. Just beware of less-than optimal moves at times. smoke :D
Don't worry.

People in this little group are boneheads, plain and simple.

Why, I can remember this one team variant game where I clearly told people to avoid The Pit in hell difficulty. I recall my exact words even. "Death awaits us. If you go down there, you WILL die." Nobody listened. I kept saying I had bad feeling about this.

And it turns out that I, as usual, was right. And it was one of the most memorable moments in all Diablo History.

So much screaming. And howling. And rending and gnashing of teeth and garmets.

If you can play with even half of your brain cells engaged you will be doing better then most of us.
[Image: vipersig.jpg]
Reply

Quote:If Otoyk were to join, would it be a rogue rogue rogue revival?


Hehe. We might as well bring in KoPkoyk and her altered ego Kyoko too...


Aside from that, I would recommend this variant.

Years ago (it seems like forever, doesn't it?) I realized I have been building most of my sorcies more or less the same as far as stat points are concerned. The realization came when my MF sorcy found a good bow for the first version of Amy (Lightning, Fireball and bow - things you have to Aim) but she had no room left in inventory and already carrying one more item on the cursor. Without a a thought, she equipped the Demon Machine with the swap slot. Shssh, all my sorcies have the same stats when I went to compare them. So I have wasted my time building all these sorcies when one can do ;p

The later versions of Amys just kept on getting more radical, radical from the way people build sorcies in d2. Amys are all Str and Dex builds, Energy is almost non existent, and Vit is for wimps (even for a 2handed melee sorc). Amys can always equip anything the game can drop, and they darn well have to, because they are the MFers, Rangers, Meleer all rolled into one.

This variant w/o a BA merc would have a harder time hitting things but that is what eth runes are for, (caution - Think Nef before you stick an ias jewel or shael in your bows.) shouldn't be too bad when properly equipped.
Amy at 90 w/o BA and out of her battle gear hits around 80% with maxed Enchant.

PS: and a very nice touch on the fouth dot smile


KoP


KoP
Reply

Greetings!

I currently have a "Red Rogue" in NM (never used Energy Shield for all my sorcies), no points in energy and all skill points in Enchant and Warmth, a few in Fire Mastery and one in Teleport. Using a unique crossbow with explosive arrow, Enchant adds damage to the explosion, which speeds up the killing quite nicely. Her secondary weapon is a "Leaf" staff with +3 to Enchant. Hoping to get my hand on Demon Machine and unique belt with piercing, but I know I can do without.

Picking primary/secondary skill which is also fire based will lead to headache when face with fire immune all so common in Hell difficulty. I have not decided what skill to use for my sorceress.

Anyway, if the time is right, I am interested in this team variant.
- SoulEdge -
"*burp* too many pots, I need to pee..."
Reply

Quote:- You said max fire mastery is allowed. What about warmth, what restrictions are placed on that?

No restrictions on Warmth. If you want to put 60 skill points into maxing Enchant synergy, knock yourself out. hammer That's probably not quite doable before entering Hell, though.

Let's see...

All Rogues required to spend 20 pts on Enchant. 2 pts to firebolt/ball for prereq, 1 to Warmth. 2 points getting teleport. Reds must put at least 20, maybe 21 or 22, into cold armors, and 2 more for icebolt/blast prereqs if not doing Frozen Armor. Blues must put 14 to Energy Shield, plus 3 prereqs.

So a Red has spent 23 + 2 + (20 Frozen, 23 Shiver, 24 Chilling) = 45 pts minimum to qualify to enter Hell.

So a Blue has spent 23 + 2 + 17 = 42 pts minimum to qualify for Hell.

If forsaking all magic skills eek Warmth OR Fire Mastery could be maxed, but still not both. Now what Magic Skills? Secondary skills cannot exceed half of primary, so let's assume wanting to max a secondary skill...

Blue Rogues could choose to max, say, Chain Lightning. They already have a point in it. If they choose a primary skill they also already have a point in (Firebolt/ball, Lightning) they could put 19 to that, 9 to Chain, and with 28 points max their Chain. But that's still no Lit Mastery, so 38 points to REALLY max chain. Well, who's got points to spare for that if maxing Warmth and Fire Mastery?

There should be at least a few "interesting decisions" to make about one's build. Red Rogues will have a maxed cold armor, so would get double bang for buck off Cold Mastery if opting for cold magics. Then the question is Shiver or Chilling, depending on whether one plans to do some melee or stay almost all at range. (Folks actually choosing Chilling for strategic purposes... That will be a first before my eyes, as I have not seen its like before!wink Also have two prereq points already in place for cold skills, if not doing Frozen Armor.

Blue Rogues will have a couple of prereq points in place for Lightning skills. However, all rogues will benefit from Fire Mastery on their enchant, so there's dual bang for buck on that, too. Building Fire Mastery could render fire magic skills more powerful. What to do with fire immunes? Well, with all that dex, with teleport, with a good bow... One could even carry a second bow gemmed to the max with emeralds, for instance, or carry charms and wear circlets etc with Lightning damage. So I think it's NOT an automatic to eschew fire skills. I should expect a decent spread. "Macho" types can choose Bolt skills for their magics, or Inferno. Blue Rogues could have several secondary skills by the end if they eschew cold armor, but Cold Armor is the only way to boost DR, which for all its faults, is no longer "completely useless", especially if staying on mlvl curve.


Quote:- Are you planning to start up a team using these rules?

Yes. How soon, not sure. But it will have to be played on an evening I can commit to regularly, which may knock out some folks who can't free the evening(s) in question.

I should also say that roster spots are reserved for my EST teammates who want to play. "You know who you are." So I'll have to see how that shapes up before saying yes to everyone else. Of course, if the demand exceeds what one team can hold, another team is always possible.


- Sirian
Fortune favors the bold.
Reply



Forum Jump: