[Spoilers!] Dave Versus Financial

[oledavy]

Ok.Vikings then.

ummm....what?

[oledavy]

Written while I was on the road:

Hey, do you know what time it is? Opponent analysis time! If you don’t like walls of text, here’s the door:



Door

This is the part where I set myself up as the judge of all these players’ styles and make haughty judgments of each one’s strengths and weaknesses



Since I’m going to be reviewing a number of players and ongoing/completed games here, I just want to stress this is all my opinion. Nothing I write is meant to be offensive and it all should be taken with a healthy grain of salt:



I was honestly hoping we might get some better reporters for this game, since it’s our first medieval start PBEM on RB. It would be interesting to get a complete picture of what’s going on. If past games are any indication, Mackoti, Shoot, and Sian will probably not be updating their respective threads on a regular basis. Nakor may semi-regularly, but he’s also involved in three other games. Pindicator updates more often, but I expect him to be distracted from this game. Between you, me, and the fence post, I think a couple of these players have enough games going on as things are. I’m a ‘two games at a time’ kinda guy myself, as during the couple months I had three going on, I couldn’t do all three justice in terms of playing and reporting. On the whole, I would have more fun lurking the forums if we had players putting more effort into fewer, better-reported games – versus the fourteen BTS games we have running right now. Just my two cents. All that being said, I think this game has a nice spectrum of skill, some dependable players, and should be really fun to actually play.

You may notice, I’ve included with most players their presumed reason for playing in PBEM30. I include it because in some cases, it can effect how a player will play the game.

Without further ado, let’s open up the analyses with:

[SIZE="4"]Mackoti[/SIZE]



Will be an interesting game with Mackoti unable to build his beloved Pyramids.

Currently Playing:
PBEM23
PBEM25v
PBEM29v
Pitboss 7 (with SevenSpirits)

Played In:
Pitboss #4
PBEM9 - Winner
PBEM10 - Winner
PBEM18v – Winner
PBEM24 – Winner

FFH games not included because I have never played the mod, and do not keep tabs on ongoing games (I know, shoot me )

Why is he in this game? He wants to try out a medieval start.

Definitely the best player in this pick, with the conclusion of PBEM24, I think Mackoti now has the most wins to his name of anyone on Realms Beyond. We were teamed up for awhile in PBEM25v, before I dropped out and he elected to take over. Despite talking regularly, we just were not working great as a team. He plays intuitively and I like to plan obsessively; so we were never on the same page. That being said, in the couple months I played with him, I leaned more about Civ4 than in years of playing SP. I was initially concerned with him signing up for this, as is he is involved in four other games. However, for his style of play it works.

I play Civ4 - at least the early game - by planning out every detail and trying to manage everything very precisely. For example, in PB6 I keep a notebook (because I hate Excel) with a double page spread for every city and other pages full of notes and ideas as they come to me. Novice will play his game by maintaining an Excel spreadsheet and constantly reworking a sim to arrive at the optimal starting moves. By comparison, Mackoti is the Bobby Fischer of Realms Beyond. He just understands the game very well, and plays each turn intuitively – with the next dozen turns planned out in his head. He can handle all the games he plays because he spends relatively little time daily on each, and, despite this, manages to play extremely well.

As to how he actually plays the game. He has a distinct disdain for putting cottages everywhere, and heavily favors running a strong specialist economy cum workshop spam. He’s an aggressive player, and has not played a game here without at least a couple wars. The medieval era is his favorite era to play in and what he’s best at, though with this being a medieval start, the dynamics will be dramatically different. He does not bother with C&D at all, but is competent in every major aspect of gameplay.

Because they play the game very similarly, Mackoti once commented to me that Seven is the only player he’s intimidated to go against. The pairing of the two of them as Team Pyramids in Pitboss 7 is truly scary to me, and without seeing starts, are my pick to win that game :neenernee

The only way I know to beat Mackoti is to out-plan and out-optimize him. Since he plays intuitively, he misses the little details. I believe, the net sum of these missed opportunities over time is enough to defeat him if you are able to capitalize on them.

PBEM23 Spoilers

I would argue that it is one of the main reasons N7 is in much better shape than Mackoti in PBEM23. A patient planner can beat Mackoti, it seems, and if I play similarly to the type of game SevenSpirits or Novice usually does, I should be in good shape here.

TL;DR Version: Mackoti is the best player here, no doubt. But I’m confident I can beat him by out-planning him.

[SIZE="4"]Shoot the Moon[/SIZE]



Currently playing:
Pitboss 6

Played In:
PBEM8
PBEM17

Why is he in this game? Also wanted to play something beyond PB6/Living down PBEM17

I worked very closely with StM in PBEM17, and we ended up teaming up for Pitboss 6. He’s probably the player on RB I speak to the most. He doesn’t have all that much time for civ, however, I would rank him as the second most skilled player in this pool. He did very well in PBEM8, coming in second But in PBEM17 he lost interest very early on, and consequently played a lackluster game all the way through. However, Shoot is a very competent player. I sincerely believe if he could/would devote more time to the planning stage of his games, he would be one of the better players on the site, 2nd tier-ish.

Shoot likes generally emphasizing production and playing an aggressive military game. He goes for the usual cottage spam when he plays, and as such I expect him to pick a financial leader here. Mansa Musa, Victoria, or Elizabeth being the obvious picks.

[SIZE="4"]Nakor[/SIZE]



I honestly don’t know much about Nakor. I never did more than skim his PB2 thread. From what I do know, I have him pegged as a fairly good player. If anyone would like to clue me in on how he likes to play the game, I would be grateful.

TL;DR Version: I’m expecting a very solid game from Shoot and Nakor. However, I don’t think Shoot grasps the importance of having a long-term strategy in a medieval start (or at least the importance I assign to it). This team is likely to expand like crazy, but be less able to back it up long-term with military and technological strength.

[SIZE="4"]Sian[/SIZE]



I really think Sian should have named his thread something like: ‘Third Stand of the 300” or “Sian Welcomes You to the Alamo.”

Currently Playing:
PBEM23
PBEM28
PBEM29g

Played In:
PBEM26

Why is he in this game? For Fun/Living down PBEM23 & PBEM26

Sian has had a really bad run of luck since coming on Realms Beyond. First he signed up for a game with the NS7 Juggernaut, and got dog-piled. Then, in PBEM26, he ended up on the wrong side of Gaspadore and the RNG. Thanks to his lack of reporting and recurring bad luck, I have a hard time getting a read on his play-style. Since I’m ded-lurking Gaspar and NobleHelium in PBEM29, I can’t read how he’s doing there. PBEM28 is moving ungodly slow and he never updates. From the little reporting I have read from him, he’s shown himself to be at least a competent player, and capable of defending decently if nothing else. Overall, I’d rate him as the least skilled player in this pick, but saying that, definitely not a pushover. I was surprised he jumped into this one, as he’s involved with three other games.

[SIZE="4"]Pindicator[/SIZE]



Currently Playing:
PBEM23 (with Luddite)
PBEM26
Pitboss 7

Why is he in this game? I don’t know.

Given his involvement in three other games, I doubt we’ll be seeing much of Pindicator in this game. It’s a real pity because Sian could really use the teammate and some help against this competition. Also, Pindicator would be the most likely of this bunch to update regularly. Pindicator is one of those players who is extremely good on the micro level, but a little lacking at the macro level of the game. He is very competent and plans to an obsessive degree – I feel he’s a kindred spirit in that regard. I would roughly rate us as being equal in skill.

TL:DR Version – I think I can outplay Sian and Pindicator (knock on wood). We’ll just have to see what happens.

So, now that I finished critiquing everyone else, only fair that I bash myself a little:

[SIZE="4"]Oledavy[/SIZE]



Currently Playing:
Pitboss 6

Played In:
PBEM17
PBEM25v

Why am I playing? I want to play something beyond PB6/For fun /To give the medieval start a spin/To prove myself after PBEM17

PBEM17 was my introduction to Realms Beyond multiplayer, and as such I made a lot of mistakes.

What I Did Wrong

To quote Mackoti from around ~t100:

After last post is clear dave has no skill for this game...

Despite this, I made enough good decisions to stay in the game until the end, then the AP vote came up….and the rest is rather controversial history. Between PBEM17 and playing with Mackoti for two months, I’ve learned a lot about the game and now like to think of myself as a pretty competent player. I don’t consider myself exceptionally strong in any area of gameplay, just well-rounded with no major strengths or crippling flaws. I’m still learning the intricacies of some of the game mechanics, and am not very good at C&D stuff or deciphering maps. My advantage in this game comes from the fact that I am one of two players in it who has actually played a medieval start in an epic setting (granted, that consists of a mere 23 turns in PB6, in addition to extensive thread-spamming during the planning stages ). Besides Shoot, no other player in this pool has played a medieval start game beyond online MP.

So, couple things you should know about me:

- I will never give up on a game.
- I have just as much fun writing updates as I do playing turns, and as long as I have time to spare, this thread will be up to date.
- I’m probably not ever going to post anything beyond cursory micro, as it is just tedious to read through and makes a thread less interesting to follow. That being said: @Nicolae and Mardoc, if either of you ever feel like running through the sim I’ll eventually create, please feel free to post any plan you develop. If one of you figures out a way to chop out the Great Library on t81, I’d love to hear it.

My ranking of the teams by skill level:

1. Mackoti
2. StM and Nakor (roughly equal with us I think, arbitrarily 2nd)
3. Oledavy, Nicolae, Mardoc
4. Sian and Pindicator

Predictions for the results:

1st Oledavy, Nicolae, Mardoc (of course )
2nd StM and Nakor
3rd Mackoti
4th Sian and Pindicator

I put StM and Nakor ahead of Mackoti, simply because they’re not as involved in so many games. I believe they’ll have the advantage long-term if Mackoti starts getting distracted.

I’m really curious how the other players will approach this game against the backdrop of Pitboss 6. The way I see it, when playing a medieval start, you have five choices at the outset to build your strategy around.

1. Beeline Cuirassiers
2. Beeline Cannons
3. Beeline Rifles
4. Beeline Knights
5. Focus on Economic Techs (yes, I know this encompasses a LOT of potential options).

We’re opting for numbers one and two. I really hope each team goes a different route here, just to compare and contrast how the strategies play off each other – what works and what doesn’t. However, with Team #1’s success in PB6, I’m half-expecting everyone to join me in beelining Cuirassiers, which would be disappointing.

In a medieval start, it’s even more important than in a normal game to have a plan from turn one. I think I have a workable plan, and as long as we stay flexible, we can beat these guys by out-optimizing them, and then leveraging that into a military advantage to go on the offensive.

[oledavy]

I've been chatting with Mack and exchanging thoughts. I know the game is CTON, but it hasn't begun yet, and we're not plotting anything - just exchanging ideas on traits and pick synergies in the medieval start setting. We exchanged our probable picks since neither of us can now block the other's (he picked a civ, I picked a leader).

His choice:

[SIZE="4"]Mansa Musa of the Vikings[/SIZE]

As evidenced by my earlier post...

ummm....what?

...I was somewhat skeptical of this. After hearing Mackoti's reasoning, I'm still skeptical of him taking Vikings with the first pick of the draft, but understand his logic.

- New coastal cities get free trading posts.
- Overseas territory means there will be naval action, where a Nav I promotion would be really useful.
- Berserkers are strong, upgrade into amphibious rifles. Combined with Nav I galleons, they can fork many of your opponent's cities.

Spiritual is self-explanatory, and financial has a good synergy with laying down coastal cities. His back up pick is Justinian. If everyone picks spiritual, he's going to choose a leader without it just to mix things up. This pick screams beeline astronomy and rifling, then start forking your opponents from the sea. I wouldn't be surprised at a Colossus build too.

The way he explained the civ first pick to me is that there are relatively few good civs (he named the vikings and mongols), but a slew of good leaders available, especially with only four players.

This pick screams beeline astronomy and rifling. I wouldn't be surprised at a Colossus build too.

I'm already having a tiny bit of buyer's remorse at my Gandhi pick. Mackoti pointed out that with the National Epic available right at the start, you can build the Great Library and National Epic right off the bat, boosted by the IND, for a faux philosophical. Even running a specialist economy, you're typically only producing great people from a couple cities. IND gets more powerful with a medieval start since forges are going to be one of the early builds in your cities - it replaces EXP to some extent. IND/IMP would be an incredible pairing for early growth - 175% hammers on settlers. At least with Gandhi I can go for a super early Oxford and leverage all those scientist specialists into more beakers - I'm going to be going for the liberalism beeline anyway.

So, while I try to run over the old world with cuirassiers/conquistadors, Mackoti is going to be settling overseas land and forking my cities. I'm heavily leaning towards Spain at this point, in which case the battle is Conquistadors/Three-Promo Cannons vs. Amphibious Rifles/Nav I Galleys. I'm glad he's opted not to go the military tradition route, should make for an interesting game.

Fwiw, Mack says he will only be playing medieval starts from here on out, wondering why they haven't been done on the forums before. You get to arrive at the juicy part of the game quicker, traits are rebalanced in an interesting way, more civs become viable, and the game finishes sooner since you get to skip the first 80 turns. Sounds good to me

[Nicolae Carpathia]

I just realised something. Lighthouses are free in Medieval starts. This nerfs ORG the same way EXP gets nerfed.

Expect super early beserkers and 3-move galleys.

Since we're going PHI, we may as well take the super early GArtist.

[Mardoc]

Yikes, this is what you can produce when you're travelling? I was busy myself, but I'll see if I can't be a decent dedlurker.

Fair warning - I play FFH almost exclusively. Odds are that whatever I say is wrong, but hopefully I can at least ask enough questions that I help you organize your thoughts.

I don't have nearly as much to talk about as you do - but I do have a bit to mention. First - why Spain? +50% vs melee doesn't seem to mean a whole lot to me, not when they're str 12 and the strongest melee unit is Str 8. I suppose being able to get defensive bonuses is nice, except that you're putting them on a fast unit post-collateral - if you get your stack attacked, you'll die with or without the tile defense.

The citadel, at least, makes sense to me; siege units are vital, and so XP on them is quite handy. But it doesn't seem vital, either. I have the impression that castles are a building you'd rather never build if you can help it...so why pick a unique that's just barely into the 'maybe build it' range, rather than something you'd build everywhere anyway?

I'm afraid my perspective is that Spain is minor boosts to your gameplan, that are just strong enough to make it obvious what you're doing, without being strong enough to really matter. I would prefer to see a civ with some economic boosts, maybe something that synergizes with Gandhi or with staying alive until Cuirs.

In order not to be totally negative: How's Inca strike you? Fake-Creative is always handy; a useless UU does mean that it provides no hints, at least.

[Mardoc]

Mongolia (Keshik/Ger)
HRE (Landskecht/Rathaus)
Ottomans (Jannisary/Hamman)
England (Redcoat/Stock Exchange)
Korea (Seowon/Hwacha)
China (Cho-Ko-Nu/Pavillion)

Or, well, I could be happy with any of these, too (I'd argue against China, but you've ranked them last so I probably don't have to).

I dunno. Maybe I'm missing something awesome about Spain, some piece of info that explains why you ranked them first. I just hope you tell me what that is!

[Nicolae Carpathia]

+50% vs Melee guarantees you'll kill Pikes. Good, but requires you to be up against someone really backwards.

[SevenSpirits]

+50% vs Melee guarantees you'll kill Pikes. Good, but requires you to be up against someone really backwards.

It also means you can take pinch and be much happier against mixed stacks of pikes/muskets.

[Ichabod]

Conquistadores also receive defensive bonuses, if I'm not mistaken, which is unique for mounted units, isn't it? It's a bonus.

But in another if I'm not mistaken comment, I think conquistadores don't ignore walls and castles when attacking cities like curassiers do.

Looking forward to the game and the thread, Dave.

[Nicolae Carpathia]

They should ignore Walls, as they're post-Gunpowder. The confusion is that in BTS, Conquistadors are a Cuiraisser replacement, in vanilla Civ4, they're a Knight replacement.