[SPOILERS] Yossarian blames Caledorn

[Cheater Hater]

At this point, how much of Civ4 (multiplayer in particular) has been solved? On the gameplay side, dominant pieces of the puzzle have emerged (India, Financial, blockades, elephants, just to name a few), such that those strategies are banned outright, or the game has been changed to balance them (RBMod). The same process has emerged with diplomacy (NAPs to run a farmer's "gambit", dogpiling the player in first and/or the "best" player), except that we don't have a way to change those tactics without banning out-of-game communication entirely with AI Diplo. Is there some diplomacy method between full and AI diplo that has been tried and works well?

With regard to lurking, it seems like there are three problems:
1. Teams are treating the thread as communication between teammates first and as actual reporting second (thus the overload of diplo--the teammates can just look in the game themselves for any detailed information)
2. Good reporting is hard and takes a lot of effort, especially when you don't know if anyone is reading it.
3. People don't know how to report games anymore, due to the lack of Epics/Adventures recently (and the lack of participation in the recent ones)

Problem 1 seems like it would be fixed by having games with less diplo (and thus having less out-of-game information to communicate), but that doesn't seems to be the case in recent games as much. However, it seems like this could also be solved by people joining fewer games. Problem 3 would be solved if people knew how to report--maybe we need to make an Adventure that focuses more on the report than the actual game? Random idea--have competitors play a save up to a certain point, write a report (likely with a word and/or picture limit), then each competitor gets a random report and has to recreate and/or critique the game based on the report? I have no idea how that would work, or if it would be any fun--it just popped into my head as a possible solution. I don't know how to help with problem 2, though if people are playing fewer games, it could mean there are more lurkers and/or dedicated lurkers, leading to more incentive to write reports.

With regard to the "sub-optimal" play, I think part of the problem is that the "optimal" strategies are very, very scattered between the various games--sure, ideas like Slavery and Financial being good are found in most basic strategy guides, but stuff at the edges (like all the information that can be gleaned from C&D) can't be found easily without either seeing it in real time when it was originally posted, or asking other people (who generally point you to a game, in a thread full of many things other than the thing you're looking for). Is there a central repository for all this stuff I'm missing?

[Bobchillingworth]

I miss the part of diplo where you get to meet new people and establish friendships.

Making Internet Friends was a big part of the appeal of diplo for me when I first started posting on RB. At this point though there's about a half-dozen posters here who I chat with on a semi-regular basis, including sometimes about things which have nothing to do with any game currently running, or even Civ in general (gasp!). So: Mission Accomplished, but much of the impetus for joining diplomacy games is no longer relevant. This is not to say that I dislike diplomacy; both games I've won on RB allowed it in some form, and I appreciate that it can spice up what may otherwise be long stretches of boring turns.

Diplomacy is a terrible headache for PB games with a dozen or more players however. I ended up blocking almost everyone from PB3 on Gchat after I became incredibly sick of spending hours upon hours in tedious, soul-sucking conversations which were necessary to maintain the alliances critical to staying at least nominally competitive.

[WilliamLP]

You can say that diplo games are an "undiscovered frontier" as much as (actually less than) Starcraft games are an undiscovered frontier. Or Counterstrike games. Or any other game in existence. I'm here to play Civ4, not play something not-Civ4.

I think Starcraft and Counterstrike are about as discovered as a game can be. BTS with AI-diplo is getting close.

The evidence I have for how close Civ 4 with diplo is to being discovered and played out is from the few diplo games played lately. And in one of the major ones, the ISDG, the RB team just failed, and hard. I believe, but can't prove, that this isn't a fluke, but a reproducible set of qualities in the people making the decisions where RB wasn't the best team at that particular game despite being the best at Civ 4.

Yes it's a game that is not-Civ4 more than Civ4, and most people here strongly prefer playing the later (including me). But, I still think such a game could be really interesting to lurk if reported well. I very much enjoyed lurking the ISDG while Sullla was writing turn reports.

I think the educational value of PB2 was the lesser part of what made it interesting, though it was still a very large part. The point that the reporting culture here has gone down a bit since the epics and adventures stopped is a good one. (Though, I can't wait to someday read Pindicooter's massively viewed PB13 thread.)

This is very much a put-up-results or shut-up culture here (not necessarily a bad thing) so the spectrum of opinions that end by saying "We've played games, therefore we know better than you what's optimal because you're a noob" can't be refuted and if the aim is to shut down discussion then those posts do so.

[Commodore]

You can say that diplo games are an "undiscovered frontier" as much as (actually less than) Starcraft games are an undiscovered frontier. Or Counterstrike games. Or any other game in existence. I'm here to play Civ4, not play something not-Civ4.

I think Starcraft and Counterstrike are about as discovered as a game can be. BTS with AI-diplo is getting close.

The evidence I have for how close Civ 4 with diplo is to being discovered and played out is from the few diplo games played lately.

Wait what? How on earth can multiplayer Civ4 be "discovered" in either diplo or non-diplo manifestations? I guess if we were a bunch of purely rational actors but ain't nobody here is. Starcraft at the highest levels might be solved but in the trenches of anywhere nonprofessional there is a ton of variation. Likewise RB's variant-seeking spirit is still seen in the suboptimal choices some of us make in every new game setup, to play with some set of self-imposed restrictions and see how it goes. The randomness-unto-optimization paths are manifold, but even in AI-diplo or AW settings with mirrored starts and mirrored leaders/civs, the people playing will make their series of interesting choices all very differently. The human factor is completely, 100%, there in AI diplo.

Clearly, there is a robotic subset that will try to relentlessly pick Pacal of Inca every game and follow a rigid decision tree like a bright AI. But those are decidedly a minority here. And most people are still good reporters, although I wish that awesome Arabia guy in PB11 would do a bit more.

[Commodore]

Also, sorry for the threadjack; That was a very good Turn 100 report Yossarian. Can you summarize the diplomacy situation?

[YossarianLives]

The threadjack is appreciated. It's definitely breathing life into this thread. I'll interrupt occasionally with game updates, but I am really enjoying this conversation. I think what is most obvious is that diplo civ 4 and non-diplo or ai-diplo Civ 4 are completely different games. Diplo brings some undesired traits, but also has some factors that can be positive, especially for newbs like me. Most notably, the ability to meet new people and chat with them about the game, and the ability for people with less Civ skill to still have a shot at winning.

I'll post a summary on the overall diplo situation later today. I also have pictures from T101 & 102 to post.

[YossarianLives]

I am going to try to make this diplo summary informative but concise. If anyone has any questions or wants more info, let me know and I’m happy to expand on this. I’ll start with the southern teams.

Gladiators of Rome

Rome was the first team we met, and we were sweating when they refused to talk to us and rushed to IW. Luckily, they took the same approach with every other team they met, so we were easily able to form a coalition with their other neighbors to counter any aggression they might direct at us. Recently, they began communicating with Asterix, so the idea was floated amongst the anti-Rome coalition to cooperate with Rome on the condition that the praets were sent north against the score-leaders, Care Bears of India. However, suspicion around Asterix quickly caused that idea to collapse. So now Rome is pretty screwed. They can either attack out with their praets and get dogpiled, or they can sit quietly while their praets obsolete and they wither into irrelevance.

Dinosaurs of England

This was actually one of the last teams we met, but the geo-political situation meant that we started cooperating pretty quickly. We have a NAP with them to T135, a screenshot-sharing agreement, and of course, a defensive pact (along with EggHeads). Dinosaurs suggested we call ourselves the 3 Musketeers, so you might see me using that term occasionally. We also have OB, and they recently approved me to move through their lands. I might just gift the quechua to them that is over there, our economic situation really feels that dire. The main thing stopping me is wanting to have a front seat when the praets roll into their lands. We actually know very little about what their diplomacy has been like with the other teams. Maybe I’ll have to look into that

Marathon Cannibal Ponies of Sumeria

I have very little to say about this team. Diplo with them has been slow and short. We do have a NAP until T110, and I don’t have any intentions of renewing it. All I can really hope is that nobody else rolls over them before we have a chance to attack them ourselves.

BowAivo of Zululand

Rounding up the southern teams is BowAivo. They have not done much diplomatically. I chatted with Bowsling once but it was mostly about baseball playoffs. Email replies from them take at least a week if not more. We do have a NAP with them until T140, which I now regret. In Aivo’s last email, he said he views us as a long-term ally and wants to keep cooperating. I am just going to string them along for as long as possible, which shouldn’t be too difficult at their current pace. They haven’t yet replied to my last email from sometime last week, in which I asked what kind of cooperation they were thinking about. I believe other teams have had similar diplo experiences with them.

And moving up to the northern teams.

EggHeads of Byzantium

I consider EggHeads our closest ally, although I guess that is debatable. I am chatting frequently with TeddyKGB, who says that DMOC is captain and he is simply a ded-lurker even though he logs in 20 times each turn and sends most of their emails. We share information and screenshots pretty freely. We had agreed to help each other against Rome long before Dinos were brought into the mix. Teddy definitely likes to chat with everyone about this game. Unfortunately for him, he does this maybe too often in an inebriated state, and has upset several teams by a lack of follow-up to the agreements he makes. Specifically, both Orgy and Asterix have told us that they don’t trust Teddy. Especially Asterix, who seems to mention a mistrust of this team in almost every conversation. Since they are our northeastern neighbor, and we want to stay at peace with all the northern teams, I think it’s important to maintain good relations with EggHeads. However, things do seem a little more strained recently. My T100 post has the best example, with them expressing interest in a fur resource that is closer to us, which might cause problems in the future. However, if they keep upsetting the other northern teams, they might need us even more than we need them, so let the vodka continue flowing!

Care Bears of India

These guys seem to be the clear leaders of the game, and they’re playing a really smart diplo game that has minimized the chances they’ll get dogpiled. They have been pleasant and cooperative with us since we’ve met them. I’ve avoided any deals with them simply because they’ve been the score leader by a wide margin. EggHeads and Asterix are their two closest neighbors, but after some early talk of cooperation against India, those two are now going at each other like cats and dogs, leaving Care Bears relatively safe. In fact, I hear rumors that EggHeads might have something in the works to bring them in with us against Rome (they are located northeast of Rome but I don’t have good vision of the area to know how close they might actually be). If I were a betting man, my money would still be on this team to take home the win.

Asterix of Ottomans

Well, as far as diplo goes, I could probably write the most about this team. However, I don’t think everyone wants to hear all the drama, so I’ll keep it brief. Asterix seems very interested in having close ties to us, having floated the idea of allying with us against EggHeads after India has been taken care of (I don’t know how India would get taken care of, but that’s beside the point). Caledorn is pretty skeptical of trusting Asterix too much. Ultimately, we’re about as far as we can get from each other, so I’m not too worried either way. My plan is to keep this team close to us as much as possible, while also being cautious what information we give away. Future cooperation is possible, but not a priority at this point.

SuttOxy of Native America

This is another team that seems to like to chat a lot about the game, but I haven’t experienced it too much since we are located pretty far from them. The chats I have had with Suttree have been pretty pleasant. I was a little concerned with an early email that I felt contained a thinly veiled threat that we might get dogpiled if we maintain a dominant position in the south, but I’m not sure that’s really how it was intended. I have heard from several teams that Suttree only agrees to deals that clearly favor his team, but that has not been my experience. When we needed right of passage to move our scout through their land, Suttree readily agreed, and gave us a path to follow that actually revealed some of their core cities, including their capital.

Orgy of Netherlands

This is the last team we met. Although we’ve known where they were located on the map for awhile, I purposely avoided sending a scout directly from our land because I did not want LP to know we are to their southeast. Now that LP is gone and Arkipeller is running the team, though, everything changes. Arki and Caledorn are close rl friends, and Arki seems ready to form a close alliance with us. We currently have a number of agreements with them, including a long NAP, OB, EP spending limits, an agreement not to share info about each other with other teams, and first dibs for trades. As for diplo with other teams, I think they’ve been struggling. They are one of the teams that told us they’ve had trouble with EggHeads, and they allowed Suttree to raze one of their cities when Arki accidently broke a settling agreement that LP had agreed to.

Hopefully that wasn’t too wordy. If you want to know more about any of the teams, just ask

[WilliamLP]

Wait what? How on earth can multiplayer Civ4 be "discovered" in either diplo or non-diplo manifestations?

I guess it depends on the exact environment? It looked to me like Serdoa and NobleHelium's play in PB12 was getting close to converging on "solved" BtS. I.e. it was a map where they best play is optimizing for pretty clear objectives. And the play could be improved incrementally I'm sure but a lot their moves seemed like the one correct thing to do in the circumstances. But I see the point, if there are a few players close to each other in micro skill on a balanced map then the game will still be decided by the very large strategic decisions they make, and chaotic and unstable equilibriums.

The human factor is completely, 100%, there in AI diplo.

Yeah, and it makes the game a lot more interesting too, at least to me. I like feeling like I'm in part of a big story and seeing what develops. And it's interesting to me how "diplo" works in AI diplo, player relationships are still extremely important.

And most people are still good reporters,

I can't wait until certain game threads get opened up. Especially one game that might as well be 3-4 independent PB games going on at once.

[WilliamLP]

Yossarian: Also thanks for the turn 100 and diplo updates! It gives a feel for the big picture of this game that was really lacking before. I'm going to keep following your thread for sure, but I'm too spoiled to comment on anything but vague philosophy discussions.

So now Rome is pretty screwed. They can either attack out with their praets and get dogpiled, or they can sit quietly while their praets obsolete and they wither into irrelevance.

Has there ever been a game of Civ 4 with Rome where that exact situation didn't happen?

[Qgqqqqq]

PBEM 37, where Seven dominated. I think the reason Rome Civs tend to fail badly has more to do with the players that pick them, as highly skilled players generally uninterested in them due to starting techs. Plus, of course, the tendency for an unprofitable early game war.