Grave Errors: The Bobchillingworth Experience

[Qgqqqqq]

And this isn't a barren map, if you compare it to most mapscripts.

Oh, come on Q

Half my cities lack any land-based luxury resources, and the ones which do have a single one. And don't tell me that it's because of poor city placement or whatever, like the only spot on this map where a city can get doubles of any resource is the capital and a potential 2-wheat spot east of it. I like this map, which is why I haven't bitched about it like I do for most, but when we're playing in a world where very few cities have two food resources, multiple luxuries are all but unheard of, and FP are a myth known only in legend, of course I'm going to call it barren. Maybe other Torusland (or whatever this script is) or Ice Age maps are worse, but this is still a commerce and food-poor map compared with most other FFH games. You can't deny that the tech pace for this game has been noticeably slower than other games which used similar settings. It's not like this is a game with inexperienced players- Dave, TBS & I have all won PBEMs before (superjim might have too, I can't recall what games he played in).

I most definitely said mapscripts, and I would happily compare it to any standard mapscript - Pangaea, B&S, Continents - and say it is far lusher. Certainly I added significant amounts of resources. I am not denying it is less resource-rich then a lot of games we play on this site, but that is because we play around with some quite ridiculous maps - it amuses me that you expect a multitude of 2-food sites, or are surprised that most cities have no luxuries - a luxury is not something one should expect in a site, and the overarching amount of them in some games (like the first map I made) detracts from any sort of economic or empire wide trade off (and can remove economic choice altogether if a luxury economy suffices). The floodplain deficit is how Torusland operates, and I didn't have enough time to produce valleys everywhere.
What exactly were you expecting in terms of lushness/resources - show me a site which represents what you feel the average city should look like in pbems - and that will make the discussion easier.

[Bobchillingworth]

I am not denying it is less resource-rich then a lot of games we play on this site

Okay. That's my point, though. I don't care what sort of maps most scripts generate for SP games, on RB we generally play on lusher-than-average maps because, to put it bluntly, most SP games are fucking slow. Nobody wants to spend 200 turns playing a PBEM. I can't think of too many other maps used on RB where there wasn't even a single site with like 3 wine resources, or a couple incense or whatever. Did you ever read the PBEM where Selrahc won as the Infernal? That map was barren, and the game dragged on for ages. Most games use nicer-than-average maps because otherwise you get situations where the first religion isn't founded until T118 and nobody builds T3 units until a point where most matches have entered the end-game. I'm not saying that every city needs to have two luxuries and three food, but a least a couple really nice spots per civ would be nice. This is Immortal difficulty and Toroidal wrap; if you don't balance out the massive tech costs and expansion costs with nicer-than-normal land, the game is going to be very slow. Which is exactly what is happening here. And don't tell me that "Torusland is always like this", as though the script was imposed by divine mandate. Using a Torusland map was entirely your idea. If you didn't want to spend time gentrifying the map, then perhaps you ought to have considered a different script.


And again, I'm not saying that this game is unplayable or unfair or unfun, or anything like that. I am enjoying this game quite a bit- but if this PBEM didn't have the fastest turnplayers known to man and average above 2 turns a day it probably would be on the path to abandonment.

[Qgqqqqq]

Okay. That's my point, though. I don't care what sort of maps most scripts generate for SP games, on RB we generally play on lusher-than-average maps because, to put it bluntly, most SP games are fucking slow.

The only reason I mention mapscripts is because that is what I originally said - that it was not barren compared to most mapscripts - and what you took exception to. I am not trying to imply that that's how to run it.

Nobody wants to spend 200 turns playing a PBEM. I can't think of too many other maps used on RB where there wasn't even a single site with like 3 wine resources, or a couple incense or whatever. Did you ever read the PBEM where Selrahc won as the Infernal? That map was barren, and the game dragged on for ages.

...
Yes I did, which is how I know it is a terrible example to use. Designing a mapscript which generates no grassland tiles, very few food and commerce resources. I understand what you're trying to say, but please give me a little credit - Maksim decided that he wanted to make an evil and barren map to push players out of the normal. I decided that I would make a map that was lusher than most but didn't need floodplain grasslands or anything similarly ridiculous. There is significant difference between the two.

Most games use nicer-than-average maps because otherwise you get situations where the first religion isn't founded until T118 and nobody builds T3 units until a point where most matches have entered the end-game. I'm not saying that every city needs to have two luxuries and three food, but a least a couple really nice spots per civ would be nice.

I am genuinely curious as to what you think roughly every city should be in terms of quality - 2-3 irrigateable grass, a food resource, 1-2 mines and a cotton/wines equivalent for commerce, perhaps? Anyway, I get the feeling that we view city quality differently is all and I think that's the central issue here.
Anyway, I will just note that tech speed considerations should take into account the two BAR leaders, your focused tech line and drama diversion and one elimination. I obviously can't comment on Suttree but I should think it clear that the above factors should enter into consideration. (Also 0 SPI leaders tends to have an effect here.)

This is Immortal difficulty and Toroidal wrap; if you don't balance out the massive tech costs and expansion costs with nicer-than-normal land, the game is going to be very slow. Which is exactly what is happening here.

The decision for Immortal difficulty was not mine, but the players, and made when I was about half-way done already with the map. I sort of assumed that you wanted high tech costs and a slower than normal game when you chose that setting. My personal recommendation was around Monarch with Emperor or even Prince as optional depending on what sort of game you wanted.

And don't tell me that "Torusland is always like this", as though the script was imposed by divine mandate. Using a Torusland map was entirely your idea. If you didn't want to spend time gentrifying the map, then perhaps you ought to have considered a different script.

That's not what I said. I gave a specific point on one of the weaknesses of the mapscript as an explanation for why that occurred. And honestly, floodplains are not needed or required in a game, especially not one without the Malakim. They were certainly not going to make me run a different script to compensate, they were simply one of the features I considered and dropped because of time investment and a lack of necessity. The reasons I ran with this script, if you're curious are: Snaky and interesting landforms/lakes, relatively equal starting distances, relative equality of land, seamless toroidial landmasses and easy to preset conditions of size and water percentage.
Floodplains was not a feature I considered very important and certainly not important enough to take large amounts of time editing in (other reasons for not doing so include: making said regions relatively equal from player to player, avoiding forcing a decision on city locations, not letting players be able to found there, and finding appropriate locations for each).

[Bobchillingworth]

I'm a little bit behind in my updating. I'm kind of in a slump in this game- I'm doing okay, but I'm really racking my brain to see any path to victory here. Anyway, doing some catch-up-


I generated a Great Sage and popped a Golden Age:




Also TBS founded the Veil. Sigh.





Superjim has odd mana. I guess he wants the Tower of Divination- but I'm not sure he actually has enough nodes to make it work. He doesn't have very many cities and has been trailing in most categories for a long time now; I'm not sure what's going on with his empire, but it isn't good. He'd be a good target to wipe out, if not for his damned WS and the apparent fact that he's in a very isolated position.


An aggravating event:




A hill giant would actually be quite useful for the bombard ability, but I need those pigs way more. This ended up just being a small gold tax, since the city only had a turn's worth of food in it.


Another city, of the kind I was complaining were completely missing from this map:




I... I guess I was supposed to have expanded in this direction? Rivers and resources galore, and seemingly no competition. I'll send one of my first vamps this way to slaughter all the bears, I don't have the patience to build the Lodge + pair of Hunters needed to reliably capture them.


TBS summoned Hyborem:




Siiiigh. I was going to write that he researched the Pact "with alarming speed", but the dude is on his third sequential golden age, this time thanks to the Bone Palace. Dave meanwhile build... the Great Lighthouse. A decent wonder on this map to be sure, but the Palace went forever without anyone trying for it At least I have the excuse that I've been doing a deep beeline (with a Drama break) since like turn 0.


Hyborem didn't like my demanding his World Map:




Asshole thinks he's a Big Man just because his stupid palace gives him like a billion power. I'll wipe him out if I ever see him, but it doesn't appear that he spawned anywhere near me.


Finally, Feudalism arrived:




Vamps everywhere as builds finish. Military State too- 120 hammers per unit means I need that +25% production bonus (with nationhood). Runes next, I'm hoping to found it although I think everyone can 1-turn it at this point, so there's very good odds it falls before my next turn. Yeah, I'm thinking of just giving up on the Veil- it'll take me ages to get Ritualists up at this point. Or at the least putting it on hold- if I can actually found the Runes + get Bambur + the Mines, that's a fair amount of boosts for my Vampires (although the Mines will take a really long time to build, costing about as much as four vamps).


Like I said at the start of this post, I'm sort of floundering here. I've built my civ fairly well, I still have good expansion prospects and most of the military tech I'll need for the next while... but I'm not sure how to reign in TBS. I might be able to take his frontlines city (although I doubt I could hold it), especially since he's been pretty bad with spamming roads, but where would I go from there? He has so many cities, he could easily drown me in units, especially if I only have catapults for collateral. Should I just raze that city once I have sufficient Vampires, and then pull back, praying Dave finally builds an army and attacks his only neighbor?

One thing I'm considering is teching optics soon, and then just holding the front while trying to build a navy to threaten his core. That might work- I have a couple reasonably productive ports, and amphibious Vampires aren't hard to obtain- but TBS does have circumnav on me, and I need Iron or Astronomy for anything better than a Privateer.

Or I could try to get Werewolves- they would certainly do well against unit spam, but that's a lot of techs I would need to research.

Or I could just be happy with what I have and try for the Tower. Kind of tempting, tbh. I have a lot of land still to settle, competitive demographics when TBS isn't in his endless fucking golden age, and all I need is either the OO or Runes shrine mana (or a fire loan from Dave or Jim) and I'll have enough mana secured. I think both Jim and TBS could beat me to it if they wanted though, plus TBS will only grow in power if left alone, to the point where I seriously doubt I could hold him off in the 60 or so turns it would take to get read for the Win Tower. Bah, I'm just too conservative a player, I hate situations which force me to take risks. In both games I won the maps and/or diplomacy conspired to allow me to sit on my ass and build until I was prepared to act decisively. Which actually I guess I'm doing here too, come to think of it. My point(?) is that I wish I could psychically compel Dave to attack TBS and make my life easier :P

[Bobchillingworth]

Got really lucky with the Runes:




I'm not sure what the odds were that it would fall in my best commerce city (where I built Dereuptus!), but that's a nice boon. I'll adopt the faith next turn- chatting with Ellimist has brought up good points about going for the Empyrean to draft Radiant Guard, but the revolt won't cost me anything due to the Golden Age.


I'll research Philo next turn. I'm currently thinking of then unlocking Command Posts, which will help build Vampires even more quickly, mean I can get Mobility 1 on catapults while staying in Warfare & will help a lot if I go the naval route. Following that I might shoot for Arete and then get KotE, Necromancy, and the Empyrean tech while the Mines of Whatever build. Revolt to Overcouncil, adopt Empyrean, and then get Optics to menace TBS from the sea while I try to hit him via land. Main downside: holy shit, that's a lot of techs. TBS will have hordes of T4 units before I get all that done. Sigh.

[Bobchillingworth]

TBS canceled his trade deals with me and Dave, but then re-offered me the Corn-Corn friendship trade. I am not entirely sure what to make of this. He probably closed them with Dave because of the GL, but he was the one who wanted OB with me in the first place. It can't be due to the demands of the Under or Overcouncil, neither relevant religion has been founded yet. Perhaps Hyborem told him to cancel deals with me, and TBS compiled for... some reason? Hmm.

[Ellimist]

Check the diplo screen to see attitude modifiers between Hyborem and TBS.

[Bobchillingworth]

Ah, good point, let's see:








Uh, huh. Okay. Well, Dave is apparently still scared of AI Hyborem, since he's giving in to his demands. HE ONLY HAS LIKE 5 UNITS, DAVE, AND HE'S TOO STUPID TO USE THEM. And Superjim must have managed to get Hybie's maps- I guess he paid a fortune for them? Except I don't think he even has the tech to trade gold, and he isn't giving him any other resources. Maybe he just gifted Hyborem his map? Why would anyone ever do that? And TBS is hilariously gifting Hyborem a ton of extra, useless resources in a transparent attempt to boost relations- and Hyborem is still only cautious! Also they border apparently. Goddammit people, he's an AI with an army everyone should be able to easily kill by this point, and he's never going to trade you his mana (and probably not his Iron either... I hope). Just kill the dude if he causes trouble & take his Gela. Sheesh.


I guess the "Past events" thing might be from TBS caving to a demand? I forget if he automatically gets that for having summoned him.



In mostly unrelated news, I keep forgetting to cancel my shadow-for-sheep & ale trade with Dave, now that I have my own sheep & ale (which is an excellent name for a pub). I'll reoffer it for his death mana, and then for his chaos if he refuses.

[Qgqqqqq]

Past events modifier is from summoning.

Why do you think he's scared of Hyborem? Giving up a clam is hardly running in terror.

[Bobchillingworth]

It's still one less clam he could trade to someone who actually would pay him back- like me. Refuse, and what will Hyborem do about it? Feed him some exp? The only evil units that are going to die in the foreseeable future are my vamps if I fuck up vs. TBS. Hyborem is going to be sitting on his ass for ages with maybe two cities, both of which will probably be size 3 since the stupid AI loves to upgrade the starting manes into scouts, building... Imps? Warriors? Nothing of consequence, regardless.


He's Averax of the Sheaim, and my 10 or so Moroi were enough to pass him in power ages ago. I don't know what game he's playing, but from my perspective he's reverting to Passive Dave mode. Although I suppose your comment implies the truth is otherwise :P