New FFH2 PBEM?

[Northstar1989]

Northstar, I've mostly stayed out of this due to mixed feelings and I'm sorry your password was cracked. That really sucks. But the issue here is that the game has been stagnating for a while now. And since we've already played turn 22, I think it's unreasonable to ask everybody to replay turn 21 (not as bad as when you said turn 20 but still). 2 turns normally wouldn't be a big deal but it is almost 10% of all the total turns we've taken since we started MONTHS ago. And while you say old lion made "MAJOR mistakes", you need to step back and reevaluate that statement. It's turn 20. You're not moving around a diverse army for a massive invasion. You're moving a citizen tile for 2 turns and a scout/warrior. These are not game changing mistakes. I'm sorry but just accept that it stinks and move on. This isn't going to change whether you win or lose in this game. You're going to have to suck this one up and simply communicate better with old lion in the future. So stop holding everyone up and play turn 22

Saruman, I gave Old Lion clear instructions NOT to do some of the things he did even before my password was hacked and he played my save. And I was obviously in no position to give further instructions on the turn when my password was hacked without my knowledge at first. This is not a matter of bad communication and not my fault.

It was exactly 1 turn that needed to be replayed yesterday when I first asked for this. It is two turns today because you guys have ignored me. If you had all listened on Friday in the first place, when I said I was sending a long a save of my own shortly, there wouldn't have been any need to replay a full turn even (I can only assume by that point 1 or 2 players had played a turn- but as the save had not come full circle it wasn't everybody).


The mistakes Old Lion made *were* major. Placing a unit at great risk of being killed and making illogical decisions with civics and tiles for the capital work this early in the game has a HUGE snowball effect later on- and is quite significant even now... I'm no expert at this game as is- it's not fair to ask me to handicap myself by letting somebody else play some of my turns without my permission and then accept that they botched them badly...


Finally, regarding the total number of turns played- we'd be further along now if you guys had just complied at any point in the past two days instead of ignoring me and pushing ahead with playing with a hacked save. So none of you received any benefit from that- you only did something morally wrong that ended up hurting yourselves as much as me- there's no reclaiming the lost time from that now, but I can make a special effort to help us catch up now that I have just this PBEM to worry about if you guys will honor my wishes and replay Turn 21 using the save that *I* played for Turn 20.


Regards,
Northstar

[Kragroth]

The mistakes Old Lion made *were* major. Placing a unit at great risk of being killed and making illogical decisions with civics and tiles for the capital work this early in the game has a HUGE snowball effect later on- and is quite significant even now... I'm no expert at this game as is- it's not fair to ask me to handicap myself by letting somebody else play some of my turns without my permission and then accept that they botched them badly...

North,

We voted. We are not replaying the turns. This decision is final.

If you continue to complain about this, give us a hard time, and refuse to play the turn, then I am going to vote that you are removed from the game!

This is my final warning on this issue. Do not post how this is unfair. Do not post that I don't have the right to do this. Do not post that you will not play the save given to you. Do not post anything that I might perchance intepret to be one of the former. You have more than used up the goodwill given to you.

I repeat. This is my final warning.

I vote that Northstar be forcibly removed from this game. Ellimist, Tasunke, and Saruman: Please let me know your thoughts / votes.

[Northstar1989]

The mistakes Old Lion made *were* major. Placing a unit at great risk of being killed and making illogical decisions with civics and tiles for the capital work this early in the game has a HUGE snowball effect later on- and is quite significant even now... I'm no expert at this game as is- it's not fair to ask me to handicap myself by letting somebody else play some of my turns without my permission and then accept that they botched them badly...

North,

We voted. We are not replaying the turns. This decision is final.

If you continue to complain about this, give us a hard time, and refuse to play the turn, then I am going to vote that you are removed from the game!

This is my final warning on this issue. Do not post how this is unfair. Do not post that I don't have the right to do this. Do not post that you will not play the save given to you. Do not post anything that I might perchance intepret to be one of the former. You have more than used up the goodwill given to you.

I repeat. This is my final warning.

I vote that Northstar be forcibly removed from this game. Ellimist, Tasunke, and Saruman: Please let me know your thoughts / votes.

Kragroth, this is not a democracy. You don't have the right to call a vote to remove me from the game.

Ultimately, it is up to, among other things, whether Old Lion will choose to respect your decision to rebel against my position in charge of the game and remove me from it...


I've been thinking about this, and I'll offer a compromise, though, since you're clearly just going to dig in your heels if I try and force you to replay the turn.


If you really care about fairness, and you have a sense of morals, but are unwilling to replay the turns Old Lion played and botched, then you'll be willing to do something to re-balance the game...


I suggest the following compromise:

Each player immediately has one of his/her Scouts waste 3 turns doing nothing (by either backtrekking to their capital the way they came or fortifying when there is no need for it)- since this is how long it will take me to backtrek the Scout Old Lion sent into an extremely dangerous area I explicitly warned him not to enter. Additionally, each player wastes a single foodhammer at their capital- either by working a citizen specialist, or working a tile that produces objectively less foodhammers than another available tile to no benefit for them (Old Lion wasted *considerably* more than this with certain objectively bad civics and tile-working decisions...) This will be enough to balance Old Lion's botched turns to my satisfaction.

Obviously there will be no way to directly verify any of this, but I will be watching the Demographics for the wasted resources part (Old Lion botched things worse than this- but will be enough to be reasonably fair, I think...) This is on the honor code to a certain degree.


If you want to get the turns going again quickly, this is the fastest way to do this without unnecessarily delaying things by waiting for players to vote, removing me from the game, and counting on Old Lion to go along with your decision and replace me instead of digging in his heels and refusing as I would like him to do in that situation. I'm offering a perfectly reasonable compromise here.


Regards,
Northstar

[Northstar1989]

Just to be explicitly clear- if at least two of you agree to this compromise, I will play the turn immediately, and send it on.

I expect the remaining two players to comply with the compromise if at least two other players agree to it. If majority rules would be sufficient to remove me from the game (and I'm not saying they are- because I still think it's not right to do that to the person who started a PBEM no matter what), then majority rules (me plus two other players) with one of the players in favor being the player who started the game (me) would have to be sufficient to enforce a compromise like this- which is *much* less extreme than removing a player from the PBEM he started...


So, to remove me from the game would take two more players plus Old Lion agreeing (instead of refusing to replace me). To compromise would only take two more players- and Old Lion would not have to agree obviously... Which seems faster and more expedient- if that's what we're really after here?


Regards,
Northstar

[Saruman the Foolish]

Just to be explicitly clear- if at least two of you agree to this compromise, I will play the turn immediately, and send it on.

I expect the remaining two players to comply with the compromise if at least two other players agree to it. If majority rules would be sufficient to remove me from the game (and I'm not saying they are- because I still think it's not right to do that to the person who started a PBEM no matter what), then majority rules (me plus two other players) with one of the players in favor being the player who started the game (me) would have to be sufficient to enforce a compromise like this- which is much less extreme than removing a player from the PBEM he started...


So, to remove me from the game would take two players plus Old Lion agreeing (instead of refusing to replace me). To compromise would only take two players- and Old Lion would not have to agree obviously... Which seems faster and more expedient- if that's what you're really after here?


Regards,
Northstar

First off, STOP HOLDING THE TURN HOSTAGE! This is ridiculous, and we wouldn't be talking about removing you otherwise. I am okay with putting a citizen on a lesser tile and delaying a scout for balance reasons even though that is penalizing me and others for your tardiness. Send the turn already! And you can stop throwing it in our faces that you started this game, you started the thread, yes, but we all started the game (i recall a month of inactivity on the thread before I myself joined), and some people put in more effort than others to get it going.

[Northstar1989]

Just to be explicitly clear- if at least two of you agree to this compromise, I will play the turn immediately, and send it on.

I expect the remaining two players to comply with the compromise if at least two other players agree to it. If majority rules would be sufficient to remove me from the game (and I'm not saying they are- because I still think it's not right to do that to the person who started a PBEM no matter what), then majority rules (me plus two other players) with one of the players in favor being the player who started the game (me) would have to be sufficient to enforce a compromise like this- which is much less extreme than removing a player from the PBEM he started...


So, to remove me from the game would take two players plus Old Lion agreeing (instead of refusing to replace me). To compromise would only take two players- and Old Lion would not have to agree obviously... Which seems faster and more expedient- if that's what you're really after here?


Regards,
Northstar

First off, STOP HOLDING THE TURN HOSTAGE! This is ridiculous, and we wouldn't be talking about removing you otherwise. I am okay with putting a citizen on a lesser tile and delaying a scout for balance reasons even though that is penalizing me and others for your tardiness. Send the turn already! And you can stop throwing it in our faces that you started this game, you started the thread, yes, but we all started the game (i recall a month of inactivity on the thread before I myself joined), and some people put in more effort than others to get it going.

I'm not holding the turn hostage. My play window (9:30 - 11 PM, once again) has just begun, and I'm about to load up the game and start plotting out some micro decisions (the compromise I offered hurts you guys less than Old Lion's decision hurt me- he wasted a lot more than 1 foodhammer- the total actually comes out to at least 6... But there are 4 of you and only one of me, so I figure if 4 players each waste 1 foodhammer it's not quite as bad...) while I wait for news on the compromise.

I've also had some issues with my computer running out of memory when I load Civ4, so I've been trying to figure those out in the meantime as well...


I'll take Saruman's post as 1 vote in favor of compromise. Keep in mind you can vote for compromise even if you also vote to have me removed if compromise fails (*cough* Kragroth).


Regards,
Northstar

[Saruman the Foolish]

I'm not holding the turn hostage. My play window (9:30 - 11 PM, once again) has just begun, and I'm about to load up the game and start plotting out some micro decisions (the compromise I offered hurts you guys less than Old Lion's decision hurt me- he wasted a lot more than 1 foodhammer- the total actually comes out to at least 6... But there are 4 of you and only one of me, so I figure if 4 players each waste 1 foodhammer it's not quite as bad...) while I wait for news on the compromise.

I've also had some issues with my computer running out of memory when I load Civ4, so I've been trying to figure those out in the meantime as well...


I'll take Saruman's post as 1 vote in favor of compromise. Keep in mind you can vote for compromise even if you also vote to have me removed if compromise fails (*cough* Kragroth).


Regards,
Northstar

You explicitly stated that given 2 votes for your compromise you would immediately play and send the turn. If that isn't holding it hostage I don't know what is. Now I'll agree to your handicap, but I suggest that you send the save as soon as you can rather than wait for someone else to agree because the rest of us aren't going to stand for it and they probably WILL decide to kick you.

[Northstar1989]

Correction:

Running some micro calculations revealed Old Hammer's blunder was worse than I thought. I lost exactly 8 foodhammers (over the next 9 turns) based on calculating out the long-term effects of his poor choices...

If you guys would be willing to throw away 2 foodhammers each, that would make things sort of equal (2 foodhammers * 4 players). If not, I can live with just 1 each like I previously said...


Regards,
Northstar

[Northstar1989]

You explicitly stated that given 2 votes for your compromise you would immediately play and send the turn. If that isn't holding it hostage I don't know what is. Now I'll agree to your handicap, but I suggest that you send the save as soon as you can rather than wait for someone else to agree because the rest of us aren't going to stand for it and they probably WILL decide to kick you.

Well, when you put it that way, maybe it *IS* holding the turn- but I *strongly* disagree with using the term "hostage"- this is more comparable to peaceful noncooperation (in the style of Ghandi) than a violent criminal holding people at gunpoint. I have been wronged, and I am peacefully refusing to give you guys what I want as a result unless justice is served...

How is stealing my password and hacking my save, then forcing me to endure the drawbacks of badly-botched turns played by Old Lion that I would not have made myself (if fact, *did not* make myself- because I played Turn 20 independently with better decisions and tried to get you guys to use that Turn 21 instead) any better than holding up a turn? By my estimation, that's basically cheating- as I *told* you guys my turn was coming soon and you still went ahead playing turns and refused to replay from my turn I sent... (the only reason I didn't get the turn out less than an hour after my password was hacked was because the e-mail failed to send correctly: something I failed to immediately notice in my stressed-out state from having my password hacked less than an hour before- and thus again your guys' fault...)


Now I'm only holding the turn while I demand justice. Saying I'm holding it "hostage" is itself a misrepresentation of the facts- I'm refusing to participate in a game that was hacked and played in such a way as strongly disadvantaged me. That's more comparable to peaceful noncooperation (like Ghandi) than to a hostage-situation. I'm peacefully protesting the wrongheaded and definitively illegal actions taken against me.


Even if you guys go with the more fair compromise version (2 hammers/turn wasted each), it will still kick me lower in the player-ranking. The only way each of you losing 2 foodhammers each becomes equal to my losing 8 foodhammers would be if you all decided to gang up on me after this- in which case I will lose anyways (and I *hope* is not the way you will react to this- considering this was all set off by hacking my password, and could have been avoided if you had just been literally an hour more patient...)


Regards,
Northstar

[Ellimist]

Northstar,

I play these pbems for my own enjoyment and to relax and unwind at the end of a day. All I ever wanted from you was to have a turn in my inbox each day before I went to bed. You don't have authority over this game. It's a collaborative effort and so far everyone has been collaborating except for you.

You're not only incapable of playing the turn regularly, you're deliberately unwilling to do so. To me, this is what sets you apart from everyone else I've seen with PYFT issues. We've tried to compromise with you repeatedly and you have flat out refused every time. You say you're busy, and I do not doubt that. But I am also very busy. I'm averaging six 12-hour workdays per week right now. I am busy enough that I don't want to waste more time arguing with you.

I'm done with compromises. You either (1) find a way to play the turns reliably (either alone or with help) or (2) I'm done playing with you at all. Someone else can take over my civ if none of the following options reach consensus.

I am willing to do any of the following:

• Northstar immediately stops with this BS and reliably takes his turns from now on. No more drama. (At this point I do not expect this to happen but I would be okay with it.)
• Play on and replace Northstar with either an AI or another player.
• Cancel this game entirely since it's been consumed by his stupid drama. We have 340 replies to this thread and are only on turn 22 in game. This is absolutely ridiculous.
• Restart this game with either 4 players or with a replacement for Northstar. Either this map or a new one is fine. Either same picks or new ones is fine. I don't care. I just want to play FFH or EITB with people who are enjoyable to play against.