[PB37 SPOILER] Coeurva, Bacchus -- Cyrus of Carthage

[chumchu]

I looked around a bit on google and find 'körva' in many places: värmland, dalarna, västergötland, hälsingland, gotland and even gondor

https://www.mememaker.net/static/images/...572502.jpg

It might have been "Curiewurst" if Berlin had held out two more months.

[Coeurva]

T59


The warrior didn't raze the pasture.

Sicil runs minimum food, max hammers, to get the most out of the screwed-up granary build (completes eoT60; then whips another worker). The settler could have moved onto the hill 8 of his position, but that wouldn't actually have sped up the settlement, and I'm not taking this peninsula lightly again.


We'll lose the rice farm, I suppose. Whipping the axe would have been the greater cost, though; instead, Rhapsody double-whips a worker on T62 and finishes its granary right afterwards. (I think.)

Both workers will probably focus on the pigs and then on getting up the library already. I could send one of them back towards Rhapsody to cottage (we have a 2t partial grass river cottage, and 1t into the floodplain as well), though.


I moved the warrior 3, because I wanted to see whether CML had whipped a chariot or an axe before moving in the axe against Cincinnati. Had it been a chariot, he could have killed the axe and gained the initiative -- the warrior move, however, would have forced him to defend his capital instead.

The axe can kill the warrior now, but it doesn't matter much -- CML can defend his copper easily enough, anyway, and has already produced at least two axes (sign!). Ensuring that he'll lose Cincinnati (and costing his axe one turn of movement) was worth this loss.

The warrior from Lifeblood (Avoirdupois) is now covering the worker on the grass forest hill 7 of Cincinnati. In our opponent's shoes, I'd consider smashing the warrior inside Cinc into him since it has only 1-250 chances to stop the axe, anyway, for the chance to retake the worker. Then again, Avoirdupois would gain a promotion if he lived (has 1XP already), which is very likely here.

Vermin grows onto a silver mine next turn, producing another axe (in addition to the one that leaves Cowish next turn). Lifeblood (now size2) whips another axe 1t later, regrowing in sync with the completion of the rice farm.


Yeah. I think CML is actually #9 in Soldiers, but he could also be around #7. In graphs, we still have the edge over our neighbours in every category except for GNP, but they're not slacking off. Castle Ironfist is size5 with a granary, Harmondale size3 with a granary.

Our current GNP is an obvious disaster at 0% research (12 gpt; our four units in CML's land cost us considerable money). At 100%, we score 30 points instead (#6) and lose 16 gpt.

Still competitive in Crop Yield, and the barbs have forced us (directly or indirectly) to work lower-food tiles. What I'd like to do better in my next game: get a granary in the capital much sooner -- which was part of what you suggested in the very beginning, but there's always been something else I wanted to produce first... IMP kind of gets into the way of granaries, I've noticed; wonder if Charlie would alleviate the problem or reinforce the anergy.

JR4/Ref landed Buddhism (last turn, actually). They're EXP, so Oracle is in the cards. I know I'd rather want them to grab it than our immediate neighbours (CML in particular, since he could oracle Metal Casting -- his worker next to Hoke is building a cottage, so his last tech was Pottery).

[Bacchus]

I wonder whether he will vacate the newly-founded city. If he doesn't, that's a severe level of damage dealt -- worker, settler and warrior for warrior.

How many cities that Dark Savant have? He's done a good job on granaries, I'm kinda sad out axes aren't pestering him instead, but the line into CML is just better layed out geographically, and we probably wouldn't get the same level of fuck ups from Savant either.

[Coeurva]

Savant and ipecac still have four cities, but I expect their fifth any turn now. Sorpigal, their latest, isn't operational right now (no food), but will that ever change once it pops borders and gets out work boats.

Hard to say for me if we should have chosen the other target. Unlike CML's fourth city, Sorpigal was actually connected by road -- Savant could have saved the city via capital whip and a 2-mover axe. Even had we succeeded, we would have left CML to whip granaries in peace instead.

From what I can see, CML's one huge screw-up was to leave the worker in place, but he had no way to know about the axe before settlement. He was probably assuming an opportunistic strike on his worker, thought to get a solid base in place (four tiles from his capital, and controlling the chokepoints), and, as it appears, failed by a narrow margin. If an axe could reinforce that city, we'd never take it without an actual force.

We need to settle near CML for #7 or #8, by the way. The only other spot for #7 would be near the capital rice once re-farmed. Everything else just does nothing for us, as far as I can see. We'll expand through Sailing, through Iron Working, through CML (which should mean HBR, I think; pure chariots probably won't cut it here), or not at all. One of these is not an option.

Final note: CML isn't locked in a turn-split with dtay. He's also played this turn in about a minute.

That's all for tonight. I think T60 should be a good opportunity to discuss our strategy and position in a bit of detail; I'm feeling like I'm slipping into playing too vaguely, in a turn-by-turn style.

[Bacchus]

Yep, let's do a bit of a wrap up once the city is razed, capital barb situation is clarified, etc. My biggest worry is lack of scouting an an understanding of the wider lay of the land, but the new city can put out a work boat for scouting soon enough.

[Coeurva]

No turn tonight, it appears. Nonetheless, here's the strategic overview from my point of view (can't log in, due to our agreement with CML, so no new screenshots). It might actually be better to talk about it now, without the distraction of a new turn.

Settling

There don't seem to be many good city sites left on the mainland, and we won't get Sailing + a galley in time for X7 or X8. The only choice is whether to settle rice/furs + second-ring clams first, or clams + second-ring sheep on hill near CML, or clams + first-ring sheep on flatland near CML.

I'm tending towards X7 Rice, unless we can get peace with CML (which probably means a dtay invasion, unless he's weary and thinks he can make no progress right now). Any city near him isn't safe until we've built a spear, and even then, will have a constant demand on units over the next 20t. X7 Rice may not be impressive, but with a granary at Rhapsody, the rice isn't all that important to the capital anymore, and the furs are a decent tile for commerce -- in fact, the best such tile we can settle for right now.

We should definitely make use of our opportunistic aggression freeing up the south for settlement, but I'd prefer to wait with that until Lifeblood and Vermin are more developed (which means post-T70). Definitely open to counter-arguments, though.

The only city that can produce the X7 settler is Vermin, since Rhapsody and Sicil need to build workers (to rebuild the farm, chop at X5, improve the capital, and improve X7 Rice). Sicil will produce the X8 settler. This is an argument in favour of X7 South, X8 Rice. (We're also less pressed for worker labour in the south.)

Tech

We haven't actually committed to Animal Husbandry yet, but I think it's the best option (assuming we have horses), because CML doesn't appear to have chariots yet (he would have whipped one) and will probably not build too many spears (since he'll see and expect us building axes). A small stack of chariots could allow us to pillage CML or convince him into a peace deal, or at least force him to whip spears (which are useless on the attack). They'll also be effective at defending our southern cities, regardless of what CML might attack with. Minor advantages: a) Grass horses, if we get them, are useful tiles. b) We'll be free to choose HBR whenever most convenient.

After that, we have several options:

* Sailing -- because we're running out of land and want to scout. X5 also grants us a trade connection with Savant, which could help build relations. Synergy with Currency due to ICTR. Lighthouses help at least two of our cities. Allows us to hook up whales at X6. Cheap tech. Currently my choice.
* Mathematics -- allows Rhapsody to chop the settler for what will probably be X10. (We've lucked out with a forest growth onto the hill.) Most of our forests will already be gone by the time we finish this, though. Maths is best for the techs it unlocks afterwards.
* Alphabet -- Questionable. OB with Savant is actually helpful if we ever want to explore northward, since he's blocking us both by sea and by land. On the other hand, Savant would also gain the benefit of OB trade routes without investing a single beaker.
* HBR -- Takes a while, but unlocks our UU (the cost of Archery is almost negligible). I'm not sure if we can produce enough NumCav to overwhelm CML yet, though. Leads absolutely nowhere on the tech tree (but all the later 2-movers require it).
* Iron Working -- We gain a gems resource for X Rice, and potentially gain iron tiles. Swords are actually not useless against axes in this mod. Awkward position on the tech tree, though.
* Currency -- Synergy with IMP / number of cities; synergy with Sailing (ICTR). Problem: takes the most time (including its less-useful prereq).
* Aesthetics -- to build the SoZ. The SoZ doesn't take cities, though, and we have no city with 20+ hpt to actually knock this thing out without any bonus to production. Even then, I'd probably prefer three extra Num Cav.

Scouting

We can't get past Savant without OB (or war), neither by sea nor by land. X6 ("Ignis Fatuus") has too little production and food to slave out a work boat for the eastern sea (a point in favour of X7 Rice, which would be coastal). We can produce a work boat at Lifeblood on T63 (required to hook up fish on T75) and another one at X5 ("Westward Ho!" -- unless that breaks CTON; alternative suggestion: "Whitehall") near T69 (hook-up possible from ~T72, but could delay it).

The placement of CML's second copper resource makes me think dtay will be over in the west, due to symmetry. (That would be his "copper borderland". We also know that dtay and CML have probably raced settlers in the past.) This gives me hope that Lifeblood's work boat could find him.

We could use Arithmetician to give up his sentry post and explore Savant's eastern jungle (which looks to be a peninsula), but he'd be unable to return. Probably not very useful, though.

Also, we should aim to trade maps with dtay.

------

Here's a rough 10-turn plan for our cities (including suggestions for names):

RHAPSODY

T60 granary (partial)
T61 size6; worker
T62 2-whip worker (W7)
T63 granary, finish ~T67 (W7 cottages floodplains)
... Then worker / settler / library / chariot?

SICIL

T60 swap to max food; granary (~13h OF. Aim for >= 16; that's optimal)
T62 size3; worker
T63 / 64 1-whip worker.
... Then regrow and build a settler for X8

VERMIN

T60 start working silver; worker / settler / spearman? (Depends on food bin, settling order, and on CML's actions. A spear is necessary to settle near him.) Probably spear and grow.
... Sooner or later, settler for X7 (in any case).
... Then library (copper tile!), or military as needed.

LIFEBLOOD

T60 Swap build to work boat (can emergency-whip 5/35h axe in queue.)
T63 size3. Whip boat (-> size2). 6 food surplus.
T67 size3. Work plains silver.
T71 size4. Whip/chop library. Grow onto scientists (?) and/or whip worker, or settler for city #9, or galley... Spend boat on fish after border pop, which should give us ~10t of scouting (factoring in the return trip).

"X6" (IGNIS FATUUS)

T64 size2. Work the capital's cottage.
T68 size3; library done. Add scientist.
[T74 Add second scientist. (T88 Great Scientist)]

"X5 EAST" (WESTWARD HO!)

T61 size1. Boat.
T62 worker begins farming. Take cow from Sicil once we can (T63, hopefully). Swap build to library.
T67 size2. 1 chop into library; whip. After this, chop work boat.
... Then granary / lighthouse / work boat / galley, depending on when Sailing comes in...

EDIT: Actually, CML played his turn just now. Alright, expect T60 shortly. And some screenshots so I'm actually not half-guessing at the micro.

[Bacchus]

My first note is that I wouldn't actually call the above considerations strategic, looking as they do at a perspective of 10-20 turns. Let's thing a little more globally, what are we trying to achieve here long-term? The type of victory we are going for is too early too judge, but certainly ideas on wonders (Mausoleum, Taj), techs (Music, Liberalism) and civics are all relevant already. Also, worldwide considerations, as well as our position in the rankings.

[Coeurva]

T60


(The granary build in Rhapsody is actually a partial axe, just in case. The rest of the plan is unaffected.)

...no time for more screenshots, sorry. But one barb warrior razed the farm, while the other went 4 onto the hill. I used the axe to kill that one -- which was a mistake, should have stayed inside and killed next turn when the warrior would have moved onto the pasture -- and moved Ames-Ace such that he can move into the empty capital next turn, covering against the other warrior. Unfortunately, even with a river, hill, 25% city defense and +40% culture bonus, the barb warrior actually still has ~1% odds to take the city if he moves 7 (onto floodplain) and attacks. So... let's hope that doesn't happen, I suppose.

Another barb warrior has appeared in that region, by the way, on the gems tile. I think we need a permanent spawnbusting unit (Ames-Ace).

Savant's city of Harmondale still defended by 1 warrior. He might have built two axes last turn, though -- spiked past CML and us in soldier graphs. Or that was Iron Working.

CML lost his city with the warrior inside; axe at 3.6/5 str. He also moved another worker into the same forest (but can cover him with an axe this time). What do we do with our units now?

The axe produced in Vermin is going east towards the hill corn (did I mention that? There's hill corn 6 of Vermin's copper; not a real food resource), as there's a landmass (snaky island?) in the eastern sea. -- Which makes X7 south more attractive. Vermin is producing a settler (7t). Our GNP is actually becoming decent -- 25 at 0% research, 39 at 100% (avg. 35; and we have no culture-producing buildings besides the Palace, yet). Animal Husbandry takes 4t from now. Could actually see us swapping to Sailing here.

We're second in soldiers now (at 52,000), so the 66,000 Rival Best is likely gearing up for war. Wonder if that's Savant's unknown neighbour, which could explain the frequent log-ins.

#2 in Crop Yield at 57 (Rival Best still 60). MFG is only 23 now, though. X-5 / Westward will be settled next turn without issue.

[Coeurva]

My first note is that I wouldn't actually call the above considerations strategic, looking as they do at a perspective of 10-20 turns. Let's thing a little more globally, what are we trying to achieve here long-term? The type of victory we are going for is too early too judge, but certainly ideas on wonders (Mausoleum, Taj), techs (Music, Liberalism) and civics are all relevant already. Also, worldwide considerations, as well as our position in the rankings.

Maybe, but 10t feels like a long time. More seriously, you're right that I should have called them "logistical" or "operational", but I think that city placement, or even choosing to settle islands some 10-20t sooner, does have long-term ramifications. That is, the early decisions snowball the hardest into dictating what can be our strategy later; taking an early HBR and building NumCav to conquer CML might put us out of the race for Music, for example, because we'll need to emphasize production over commerce for ~30t afterwards.

I don't know how else I could gauge our ability to reach e.g. Liberalism from this position, for example, except by noting from demographics that our GNP is quite average right now (but rising, with at least two high-commerce tiles being hooked up in the next 10t).

I'm certainly all ears for actual strategic ideas, though. I'm afraid I wouldn't know where to start.

EDIT: My basic idea is "crunch out cities until Currency, a tech that gains in value with every city; use Currency + ICTR + Bureau cottage Academy cap with lots of cheap libraries to fuel further Classical/Medieval research; aim to conquer CML either with horchers or knights; turn land advantage into anything we need afterwards".

[Bacchus]

Ok, let's see.

We are expanding very rapidly and, I would guess, most rapidly of the competition. 30 Rival Best hammers are impressive, but the land count, after substracting CRE Gavagai I think puts us solidly in the expansion lead. We can ease off cities for a bit, especially as we are so behind in workforce. Maybe X7 can even go on islands after all. Anyway, that's returning to operational. We have a neighbour on whom we dealt what should be irrecoverable damage to the snowball, he further damaged himself by putting hammers into the Henge. Over the medium term this neighbour will be assimilated, either by us, or dtay, most likely a bit of both. We need to ensure that we don't get shortchanged on that handout. We have another neighbour who seems to be playing a very tight and focussed game and pushed hard for a combination of early expansion and infrastructure. He may well become a problem and we need to understand what his plan is.

What else do we know? GJ and Gavagai invested in large capitals and, I would assume, went for early pottery and cottages. Nice for this land, but expansion is even nicer, methinks. They are the likely candidates for the most proximate first-to's, including Judaism and Confucianism. I have to say I'm surprised by Buddhism from JR4, but I guess I understand little of what's going on there. Talking of which, here are the score gains over the last 16 turns:

gava 60, CML 47, JR 44, krill 47, GJ 33, Coer 41, Savant 37, Ventessel 39, dtay 26

Some corrections necessary -- massive subtraction for Gava for accelerated Cre land score, some subtraction for CML for Henge. After these, we rather unsurprisingly see krill as growing fastest, and us doing ok. Dtay is somehow deeply in trouble, and I mean deeply -- he would have had to grow 50% quicker than he did just to be on par. Dtay is an excellent player, especially in the early game, but his attention has clearly been elsewhere this time around. Still, this fallthrough is so massive that I wonder what exactly went on between him and CML. GJ is also not having the best of games apparently, albeit his fast granaries should have been having an effect already, pop is the easiest way to grab score in these turns, save for Cre land. Overall I would say this places us well for medium-term first-to's, once we are out of the economic hole.

Another thing came to mind whilst racking brains about the field and looking through the public threads:

dtay - ___ of Zulu
CML - ___ of Russia
Couerva (Bacchus as DL) - ___ of Carthage
Dark Savant (ipecac as DL) - ___ of Ethiopia
Gavagai - Suryavarman of ___
Krill - ___ of Inca
Ventessel - Wang Mon of ___
Germanjoey - ___ of Greece
JR4 (DL requested) - Isabella of Mongolia

Spot anything here? What odds would you give me on a bet that Gavagai is Dark Savant's northern neighbour? Incidentally, that would be excellent news.

Finally, my gut says that somehow domination of the seas will be very important here. I don't like the outline of these snaky islands, and I don't like the continent shape. Sailing is a good tech to research, and I would prioritise coastal settling spots wherever they can be made to work.