[no players] CiVI Lurking Part II: Sophomore Slump

[Quagma Blast]

The lessons I'm taking regarding religion from this game are that:

1) It is really hard to win a religious victory if even one other player has their own religion (see Woden's eradication of Weedy Movement from his lands)
2) Stonehenge does not actually count as a religion, it just lets you jump the queue on beliefs and pushes back other players' prophets. You will still need to build a holy site.
3) Crash religion programs are possible but ruinously expensive. (Both Woden and oledavy were brushing religious-victory loss near the end of theirs; if either had locked in an early-midgame Holy Site and waited for it to get cheap to finish it just for the prophet points, Alhambram would not have been nearly so close to winning.)

[Ichabod]

Man, what an intense game! It has been a real blast to lurk. Whatever happens, to the players.

[yuris125]

Man, what an intense game! It has been a real blast to lurk. Whatever happens, to the players.

[Esteon]

And I was hoping for moar WAR... Congrats Alhambram! Amazing game.

[Bacchus]

Amazing, and a great illustration of the limitations of theorygaming, say I as one of the former religion skeptics. Sure, a boneheaded, AI style push to religious victory is not possible for a whole variety of reasons, but that doesn't stop religion being a significant part of the game, if only as a threat and an extra tool in the box. I am now actually seriously impressed with the design, and dying to know whether Beach was after something like that from the get-go in Gods and Kings, and after persistent work actually got there.

[T-hawk]

That religious victory is reminiscent to some degree of Master of Orion ending with a council vote and skipping the mop-up, right?

[Ichabod]

That religious victory is reminiscent to some degree of Master of Orion ending with a council vote and skipping the mop-up, right?

Never played Master of Orion (so forgive me if I'm saying something stupid), but I'd say it's not. At least it's not similar to UN Vote in a almost domination win in Civ 4, to skip the mop-up.

It required a great deal of previous work to get a strong religion (there's no easy faith generation in Civ 6 like Desert Folklore in Civ 5, you have to invest into it to get faith per turn) and to convert Oledavy and Singaboy. The only player that got converted as part of a conquest was Woden (the one who had a competing religion and enough faith generation to counter Alhambram). And if Oledavy had founded his religion, the game was still open, I'd say, albeit with Alhambram leading. Perhaps the late game warring of Civ 6 would give Oledavy a chance to comeback (and he had a lead in science and culture, I think).

In this sense, I don't think the game was already in mop-up stage, if Alhambram didn't win through religion. So, I'd say it was a religious win, not a fake domination one.

Besides, if I understand correctly, the Council Vote in MoO, as the UN vote in Civ 4, are kind of "inevitabilities" that come to the game after a certain point (due to tech progression or another mechanic that always get into play). In Civ 6, you can play games without ever founding a religion, so you may not have the possibility of just ending through it, like you always had in Civ 4 with UN ("yeah, I'm tired of this game, let's just win").

[pindicator]

Congratulations Alhambram on a fine showcase of Russia! And well played to all of you who have us lurkers an excellently played and reported game

[Rowain]

Thanks to all players for the work they put into those reports and double thanks for this entertaining and fastpaced game

[oledavy]

Well....

This is the most toxic towards me lurker thread I've ever read. When exactly did the "We want Greece to lose" circlejerk start? And why? 

It's really disappointing to come here after a game that I sunk a few hundred hours into to discover people sniping your every move from the safety of the lurker thread. Moreover, a lot of the criticism I took in this thread was easily refuted if you actually read my posts 

Then there are the high quality constructive criticism posts like this: 

I hate writing this, but regarding this "underestimating human player", Oledavy simply doesn't learn.

Actually, at this point in time I believe that OleDavy is playing the worst game here

But this sentence is pure gold: "because Alhambram can't see what's obvious to anyone who can look at the map and demogs." - when coming from a player who made a fair share of his mistakes - obvious not only from a lurker's perspective, but for other players as well.

I especially love the implicit argument in this last one. "You've made mistakes, therefore you can't criticize others for making what you perceive as mistakes." 

Apparently, no amount of self-flagellation is enough to warrant me posting thoughts about other players in my own damn thread. 

And that's another anything. Esteon, you may not be aware of this since you've never played a game here. But playing a no-diplo game is incredibily isolating. You often go quite a few posts without lurkers commenting on your thread, and even then they can't say anything too meaningful. So it's just you and your ded-lurkers if you have any (Shout out to Molach and Zero_1627). You're more or less alone, you don't have the complete picture, you see other players act in what you perceive as irrational ways or make your game harder. OF COURSE YOU ARE GOING TO FEEL LIKE VENTING. 

Every single player in this game vented in their thread frequently, but you are singling me out for criticism. 

Then there are these gems: 

About oledavy. 

He demands that Alhambram should have attacked Woden but his main problem arise out of luckless wars against singaboy and archduke.

He offered Alahambram a joint war while explicitly stating that he hopes that Alhambram declines. Offering such a joint war without any real units to support it is not really incentive to act accordingly.

Rowain, you must have not read my post in full, because in the post where I first discussed offering Alhambram a joint war, I clearly stated I was doing it to signal my intent before giving him the real one a few turns later. I wanted him to turn that one down and then accept one I would offer a little later when my units were actually in position. 

Thank god Azoth was actually reading my thread at the end to stop the "Where is Dave's Army" circlejerk. 

In fairness to him, it seems all of his military builds were interrupted for his religious projects (and new districts must be 300+ cog builds at this point), which explains why even Singaboy has surpassed him in military power.

Thank you! You got it! Apparently the fact that building 6 holy sites, 2 district projects, a temple and a shrine costs a lot of cogs eluded several others....

Then there were the gleeful "I can't wait to see Greece lose" posts. 

At this point I do hope Alhambram does not win via religion, even though I love the way he played.
I just want to see his forces run over oledavy (who's so sure he can stand against them...).

Blood, blood ... and death 

Feels good bro. Was my victory attempt not interesting enough for you because I didn't go an early religion or spam out useless early wonders?

Other players are either constantly fighting "against the wind" or have a fun idea/variant (wonders? religion??)

I see you also were a complete ass to Archduke when he visited the lurker thread - at least you're sharing the love. 

This was also super frustrating: 

Gee, if only there was someone with some free military, maybe a handful of horsemen, who could have hit Woden to distract him, split his forces, and give Alhambram hope and confidence...   

Like, you did see that I started moving towards him Mardoc, right? That he spotted me and there was no chance of it working due to the terrain? Plus, reading Alhambram's thread, I'm not even sure he could have been goaded into attacking Woden at that point. 

All this is not to say that there weren't valid criticisms in this thread. I definitely learned a lot about fighting human players over the course of my wars. Mardoc and Sgtrb pointed this out but both had the circumspection to realize this was probably inevitable for one of the first Civ6 MP games. At any rate, I appreciate the constructive feedback. 

I want to respond to two more specific issues I saw raised in this thread. 

1. Attacking Seoul/Moving to attack Woden. 
 - Did nobody process that these wars were undertaken with leftover military that would otherwise go to waste? Oh, and that I'm Gorgo and get culture for killing things? Yes I was optimistic I would take Seoul - that was based on the totally unfounded idea that Singaboy would defend Frankfurt over prioritizing defense of Seoul 

And, it's not like there was a great opportunity cost here. Yes, I fell short of my war aims, but I won a huge strategic victory. Losing a few obsolete units did not put me out, but to read the lurker thread one would believe this was the worst decision I made all game. 

Likewise, using my leftover military to set up an attack on Woden - once again during a peaceful era when there was nothing else to do with it, also raised criticism. 

Woden has two recent plants in the center of the map. I'll send a knight, 2 muskets, and 2 crossbows, and my battering ram to lay siege to them. It won't be a huge army, but it should be enough to take one of the cities, and at the very least take advantage of Woden being distracted with Alhambram closer to home
....

On the home front, I'm going to push expansion and infrastructure hard during this period. With any luck, I'll be able to get my economy into killer shape while Woden spams out military to save his empire

 Again!

What will it take to convince OleDavy that it's really really hard to get your opponent to agree to a limited war?

I think the most frustrating piece of this is that he keeps being far enough ahead that he *could* win these wars, but he never commits enough to actually win them.

How was trying to set up a war between my two biggest opponents a waste of time? How would Woden have prosecuted a war against me at that point in the game with Alhambram next door at war with him? Did I ever say I wanted to 'win?' I just wanted to prod Alhambram in the right direction adn give him encouragement - maybe snap up a single city. Earlier you critiqued me for not offering Alhambram more concrete encouragement - now you criticize me for doing so. 

2. Dave and Woden conducted diplo (Asking him about the denouncement). 

Oof. First of all, this was a legitimate bug - indicated by the fact that Alhambram got denouncement windows. Second of all, it was done with benign intent and had no impact on my in game decisions. Alhambram declaring war that turn effectively made my decision for me even if I had ever had the inkling to side with him against Woden. Third, when Singaboy and I encountered the campus "bug" or Singaboy, Archduke and I encountered the Hoplite bug, we resolved it the exact same way - through emails quickly sent to each other. I would dare say none of the players would take this as a breach of no diplo, and that reading intent into words is something we all do even when intent isn't there. As it happens, I completely misunderstood Woden. I thought he misclicked, but he was actually in the email commenting on the fact that Alhambram declared war on him. So much for that. 

Anyway, I think I'll leave it there for now. 

I'm used to being excoriated in lurker threads (PBEM17, PBEM38), it comes with the territory. It's just very depressing because it feels like I was singled out for criticism because I put so much detail in my reports, that if I thought I might be making an error, to document it in detail. It feels like I'm being criticized for not being omniscient and reacting like any invested player might. I can spend an hour on a turn report that I think is really good, and then someone on the internet will read it and come type up a quick comment on how I am "being too critical" or "not learning."

It's especially infuriating because despite the quality of my start, I was playing from behind the ball on a number of key fronts for much of the game - especially compared to Woden and Alhambram. How does being the first player to survive a GG rush not make me the plucky underdog? But to read this thead, I was the empire they couldn't wait to see fail. 

Anyway, I'm disappointed in this thread. I expected better.