[PB37 SPOILER] Coeurva, Bacchus -- Cyrus of Carthage

[Coeurva]

You're right -- building too much of an eidolon of someone's play will lead to an essential single-player mentality akin to "oh, it's Montezuma, better build a few more units!"/"oh, it's player X, that guy is too strong, can't beat him!" which locks you away from the actual game, including by a loss of flexible planning.

Re Krill, I've been lurking RB very intermittently since ~2010, what I've written is roughly what I've remembered to gather from reading Krill's threads over the years, and I believe that, besides Joey, Krill will surface as the primary threat to win this game; but I also believe that Krill's game-plan will depend on what other people are doing more than for anyone else. Case in point, he built the Oracle on T70, a rather late date which suggests to me that he was not originally planning on it, or at least keeping his options about it, but correctly assessed that everyone else was interested in other pursuits, or plain couldn't compete.

Or look at Joey, did you expect TGW from him? I don't know much about whether this move was predictable in any way or not; but now that he owns it, what might be his plan going forward? Did he just do that to run a GSpy around the Khatunate, because regular spies are locked behind Alpha and 110h are nothing compared to >300b?

Hey, I'm not complaining about the map when I say our food yield is lagging, we're settling for triple-food twice for our next cities (I think) after all, that's wonderful and indeed, others might not have such opportunities. Joey's land is better now that all the sites are nearly uncontested (even if Donovan goes for them, he probably can't hold them in the long run). That, too, wasn't a gripe at the map, but looking at the facts; if he can settle three cities with a 10f surplus and lighthouse lakes, we're at a disadvantage. If his islands off to the west are amazing, then they are; I even said that it gave me hope we'd find a similar archipelago, the intent wasn't "oh no, Mardoc crafted this map as a love letter to German Joey", but to respect the strength of his land. The map may well be balanced, but he can do something we can't (due to events out of our, his, and Mardoc's control), he will have more food than we do, and we must adapt to that, seeking advantages over Joey in other areas. If you're not the fastest midfielder, sharpen your passing skills instead -- the ball is always faster.

I'm judging from the CY demographics, we're #4 and used to be #2, so others are increasing their CY faster right now. Therefore we need to fix that, as the category that most clearly needs fixing. Savant surely has a happy problem lacking CHM, thus also his settler double-whipping whenever he hits the cap (I think he has a good lock on his cities' growth cycles), but then his plans should involve settling for ivory and gold to grow his cities to equal size. Especially given that, I'm surprised that he settled for stone, not gold, and evidently teched Masonry (which is why this is meaningful), more because desert stone isn't a tile you'd work for the yield, the hammer boost is the reason. Maybe he just hasn't found the gold yet.

I'll also bet you that Savant's stone city has a 4f tile for food. If only due to symmetric appeal. (It would be one way to pose the players with another interesting decision: you can settle stone, but it costs you any more-than-minimal food at that city, so the settler becomes more of an investment into other cities. And this map has been nothing if not interesting.)

You're right that his plan with stone could be to build Moai, perhaps inside Fountain Head to increase the effect of the stele. The deterrent to that would be our potential to boat him and take it. So does he expect that from us at this point, or not? If yes, we save a lot of hammers on necessary countermeasures against Moai, which basically mean Moai for ourselves (because he can culturally overwhelm our fish iirc). Thus, I think we have a reason to care about his assessment of our aggression, even if neither of us is planning to attack, or would actually benefit from attacking.

As for the barracks whip -- I'm just surprised because Savant has whipped barracks everywhere else that we've seen him plant new cities (of course, he probably lacked Myst at the time), and because Fountain Head looks positioned to build a few units for itself or further island cities, although with 3-move galleys, the supply line from Harmondale is just 2t. Of course, it's fine to grow the city instead, but it's not what I expected him to do, and that's an indicator of what I've said: I think I keep expecting the wrong moves from Savant. I'm also not really surprised that Savant built a galley, but I want to understand what he'll use it for, mostly because I want to know whether the other galley is still at Fountain Head, we can't see.

I think Yuri isn't out of commission yet. Or maybe I just tend to vastly overestimate every other Civ player in existence (except for those that leave their workers undefended), but he has at least 75,000 soldiers that he can all amass at a single point (both on offense and defense) until we have horchers to effectively fork Utica with.

Is there any specific fact about our border, our land, our play or anything else that makes this a necessary, or an attractive move compared to others?

...maybe?

I didn't mean that Savant would really gain from attacking us right now (although it would pretty much destroy our game as well, because Ignis falls if he makes any effort at this point, and then we'll have to go for the long defense at three different cities, while also defending against his fast navy, and Yuri most likely once he sees us losing a city) -- rather that he'll want to attack us sooner or later. I might indeed be more pessimistic about his willingness to work with us, even in the short term, than you are.

In any case, his careful building of defenses (immediately whenever we put him to the test, three times by now) could swing into seeing an opportunity to strike once he realizes our game plan goes along the line of Currency, Academy, first-to bonuses like Music etc. -- The crucial reasoning he could follow is that, if he pursues the same plan, we can reach the first-to bonuses a bit faster; if he believes that, he'll look for different goals to reach, and if we're taking the "best economic route", that might mean military pressure -- not even war, threats of war might suffice; he already knows how much of our power is tied up in the south. If he earnestly thinks he's not going to catch up for some reason and that we're going to plunge on any weakness (which is also why it's good to keep him confident), I do think he will gamble on pursuing a different plan. Mainly, I'd be less concerned if Savant's GNP looked a bit better, and I think we've agreed that we'll try and help him out there (also just a bit).

Also, if we need to devour Yuri -- e.g. because dtay is attacking him and the centre cannot hold -- then Savant could also pile on if he's good at reading not only the soldier graphs, but also where those soldiers might be. Having met Yuri by now, he'll have it easier.

Even if Savant has no MP experience -- neither do I, which I think that last post made obvious, if nothing else did -- ipecac is playing and advising him as well, and I suspect -- PBEM77 spoilers --

that he might have been the driving force behind early circumnavigation.

[Coeurva]

T91



Birth of Copernicus, he's inside Rhapsody and out of movement; reconfiguration of Ignis (builds lighthouse or archer next, what do you prefer?); silly mistake at Zodiac Spire, which should have whipped the barracks right now, if I had swapped the build last turn already. Lifeblood's next build is another settler; it still has 10t of whip unhappiness to cope with. Styx completes its library next turn. The archer is for escorting the X10 settler, both will embark next turn. Expect a T94 settlement and another fashionably meaningless city name courtesy of yours truly. I don't know what a Zodiac Spire is, but it sounds important, doesn't it?

Savant's galley ("Natasha") is moving westward with unknown contents, if any; he's smartly keeping possible units out of our warrior's view. I've moved our settler such that he can't declare to snipe him (he didn't attack our uncovered boat). Other than that, I didn't spot anything from anyone. Krill has two size8 cities showing up in Top5 cities. Yuri's soldiers are still not increasing; instead, he's done a double-whip at Constantinople.

The "we're going to lose" comment when I saw Joey's uncontested south really was too much, I'm sorry for that. There's no victory condition about having 20 more Crop Yield on T100 or whatever. But speaking of which,


I think it's fair and necessary to say that we're lagging behind in food (more so since #8 and #9 are outliers dragging down Rival Average), and need to do something about it; even if we have the advantage in pop right now, we'll have to work to keep it. First measure is that I've put the settler ahead of the worker in Rhapsody.

[Bacchus]

One thing to note on food. Let's say Rival second worst is also 41. (107 x 8 - 41 - 41 - 149) / 5 = 125. Our position is not at all catastrophic and yeah, everyone is about to embark on the next big stage of food acquisition which will be overseas settlement (for most people). So what we need to do, is ensure we settle more of these islands than others.

I also didn't mean to say the map is balanced. It isn't, we are weaker on food than others. What I did mean to say is that this differential will end up being small potatoes compared to how settlement and resultant diplomacy will unfold.

Zodiac Spire is an excellent pretentious name.

On Savant, I think you are still forgoing whole-map thinking. Savant isn't playing a duel against us, and findings moves against us or using us as a benchmark is not the end all of his game. Yeah, as I said, should opportunity rise, he would love to take a chunk out of us. But if he is failing catch up to us, unless we are also the global leader, then he is failing to catch up to others as well. Launching a war to stop us running away relative to him, won't do squat to stop others from running away. Should it so happen, that Savant is meaningfully behind on economy he will look for military options sure, but he will look for options where he can make the most gains, all we need to do is ensure that we are not the most attractive target of those available. We can even be an attractive target in some abstract sense, as long as there is a more attractive one. What's great for us in this case, actually, is that he has circumnav, which immediately broadens the range of his potential targets. Remember what I said about fighting Joey? Add reason 3) to it -- the more we can damage Joey, the more vulnerable he is to Savant, the safer our position.

[Coeurva]

One thing to note on food. Let's say Rival second worst is also 41. (107 x 8 - 41 - 41 - 149) / 5 = 125. Our position is not at all catastrophic

What I called "lag" should have been "stagnation"; we've grown three pop this turn and yet our CY remains almost the same as before, since we've grown onto three mines and whipped off one; apart from two clams, our current cities don't have any more meaningful food to pick up. Time to go a bit wider again.

and yeah, everyone is about to embark on the next big stage of food acquisition which will be overseas settlement (for most people). So what we need to do, is ensure we settle more of these islands than others.

Sounds like a plan. We'll serve the western sea with 2-3 galleys, depending on how many archers we'll need, since Styx still has to whip the granary first. The eastern sea will be Savant's secret domain as per your recommendation and clandestine fantasy.

We won't have much to send into the Vacant Sea, but the next builds at Zodiac Spire will be WB -> archer -> galley, with an option to remove the archer and build it at Vermin instead, for 2t less of wealth but accelerated and more daring island adventures. (The archer will just explore a bit to save galley turns, then fortify on the marble ahead of time.) We'll have to see if we need to slot that cottage helper city as X13 to counteract maintenance, but right now I'm hoping that X12's gold will be enough to forgo this plant and just settle the western wheat, the eastern gems, and the southern marble. We'll also need to fetch our source of ivory for +1 happy, and scout it for usable food, at some point.

Gold + four 2c trade routes should pay enough to redeem maintenance by themselves on turns of tax, so X11 and X12 shall be twin plants on roughly the same turn.

I also didn't mean to say the map is balanced. It isn't, we are weaker on food than others. What I did mean to say is that this differential will end up being small potatoes compared to how settlement and resultant diplomacy will unfold.

You said "supposed food disadvantage", so I assumed you were somewhat annoyed with my attitude at the map -- and Savant, but that's another branch. I don't mind the head-washing on this and other counts at all, this candor helps best to find new options and rinse away the verbosity.

It's true, I'm inadvertently locking myself a bit too much into a duel mentality with Savant. Half-aware of this, I'm tentatively assuming that this could be a common experience for first-time Civ4 MPers. It's mostly baseless, although there's the CML/Tectomoc concession anecdote (but our worker steal kicked off that one in the first place). It can't be ruled out, though, that a human player -- faced with mostly incomplete information and a few seemingly-lucid tidbits -- might go to war when it's not advisable from a whole-map standpoint, but when the chance to wrestle for local superiority becomes too alluring, too clear-cut against everything else that only shuffles around in the distant fog.

There's where one has to stay sharp and zoom out, I suppose.

As you've brought it up by allusion, another shared source of friction between Savant and me might be anchor heuristics, driving an overstated rivalry. For as long as we're the only civ that can serve both as a reference and potential target, Savant might tend to measure their civ's progress by our own tangible graphs -- no matter how relevant those would be from an outer-spatial perspective. I'm even more susceptible to this because battered Russia's graphs don't mean as much, but Savant "forces" me to put in thought or he'll shoot past us. With both us and Savant meeting more players and getting more graphs, this focus will gradually dissolve, so brace yourself for me lamenting the Khatunate's impending Buddhist shrine or some such over the next 25t and trying to burrow into their heads, wondering why they're not building the Temple of Artemis. Ahem. ~4t to go before graphs.

We're building wealth and research at our production pinnacles of Sicil/Vermin while the "second tier" of such cities (Whitehall, Ignis) was/is still growing to >10hpt yields, and our neighbour knows the current position and composition of almost all our army (away from him), whereas we'll have to guess much more about his equally-sized army and turbo-galleys. That's what makes me feel vulnerable, in essence. Well, that and the turn-split he's currently keeping (as it seems), but that could be with anyone at this stage of naval settler races.

Also, once more about the map: leafing back, I've actually said "[we probably won't win as] we seem to be spectacularly undersold on food resources", which definitely looks like a map complaint to me, and too harsh no matter if we have a dozen fpt more or less than anyone else. I assume I'm generally too gloomy when plucking my strings about first impressions. Thus, belated sorry, Mardoc. À propos of nothing, I think the contested land between us and Russia could have been more lucrative, though.

We can even be an attractive target in some abstract sense, as long as there is a more attractive one. What's great for us in this case, actually, is that he has circumnav, which immediately broadens the range of his potential targets. Remember what I said about fighting Joey? Add reason 3) to it -- the more we can damage Joey, the more vulnerable he is to Savant, the safer our position.

Reason #4 to fight Joey is that it strengthens both our diplomatic and defensive position vis-à-vis the Khatunate if we attack his eastern islands-to-be, as they will almost assuredly fight him at some point as well -- but with all the land units they'll build, we can move to win naval dominance. A strong Khatunate (with eastern island presence) also means that dtay and Savant will focus on it.

Zodiac Spire is an excellent pretentious name.

Reason #5 is that Joey is threatening to lock this particular flavour down for just his own amusement. Can we compete with "Seven Mysteries"?

Odds and ends I've neglected to mention, but which are perhaps the most important part of this -- at least they're news:

After killing the barb axe, we now have a Sentry chariot. Anything you'd like to look at? Otherwise I'll send it to observe Sorpigal, which Sentry should make possible.

Savant's progress in reclaiming his first ring at Fountain Head is 1%/t (rounded down), the tiles are 23% Mighty/Magical right now. He's also whipped a granary 1t after growing to size3, which makes perfect sense when guesstimating (8fpt).

[Coeurva]

T92

The Academy actually adds 16bpt, but that still means a meaningful increase, allowing us to 2t Currency from here (otherwise 3t). I've managed to get us to 137 CY again (ranked #3 at present), which mostly means adding grass farms at this point (should I lay down some dry cottages instead? will 2/0/3 tiles prove meaningful in 30t?). The old heartland is just about fully improved now, in so far as we haven't settled the fillers and improved their surroundings yet; just on time to spread out again, workers are starting to shrug a bit, "would be nice to mine that hill, I guess". -- It also becomes more apparent that plants like Whitehall only have about 4-5 meaningful tiles to work but that's still ~13hpt and 5fpt; we can do a lot with those. It's much more about the best tiles than the worst ones.

But incidentally, guess who built the Statue of Zeus this turn. You know, I'd like us to try and grab the next wonder he'll go for.

Savant now knows Iron Working, or rather I must have managed to overlook that for a good few turns while staring at his stone and thinking "????" or equivalent. It's a nice move. He has at least one source of previously-jungled gems already connected as well, and since he has double gems, that will help him recover -- they're roughly twice as lucrative as our Academy right now (due to also providing gold on turns where the Academy sits idle).

I shouldn't even mention swordsmen. Fear is the mind-killer. Actually, I will: his main concern was probably commerce and preparing for Calendar, but this raises his threat nonetheless, as RtR swords must be hit in the field unless your city has an exceptional defensive position. Construction becomes ever more meaningful.

There's a work boat we have that isn't needed for a half-dozen turns, so I'm trying to find Gavagai with it, but he might be too far away. I'm considering producing another work boat inside Whitehall, though, specifically to use this one for contacts -- everyone is connected by coast. In any case, the islands between us and the extant Mongol colonies will be scouted over the next few turns.

X10 gets settled on T94; we have a worker chopping the forest on the horses. I'm unwilling to chop the deer and lose the hammer, but that's the only way to finish the library.

Yuri still isn't adding any soldiers, but has built a granary in his capital some time during the last ~5t (Seattle has one as well). I didn't actually look at his cities that much, due to sheer arrogance.

Fountain Head has popped borders and immediately begun to put more cultural pressure on our tiles, the fish is actually only 96% Carthaginian now. Styx should fix this by adding a second library (which only completes eot93, in fact).

Joey is still in the Ancient Era, so there's that (i.e. probably not a competitor to CoL, if that's still what we want) -- but he has city walls in State of Zijin, his border city with the Khatunate, which has also been whipped down to size3. Could it be...? More likely, though, he's deterring them. That city is a salient, cutting open the path to three different targets (Oghul Qaimish, Börte, and the ivory city)

What shall be our tech path? Have we settled on Maths -> Myst -> IW / Calendar / Construction? If so, the latter three in which order? Or pursue Confu after all?

I think we don't actually need HBR early -- IW + Const should cover both our offensive and defensive needs, injuring stacks will be more important than picking off spearmen as top defenders with Shock NumCav, since we're not that chariot-heavy.

EDIT: Also, our GNP looks front-running as fuck (156, Rival Best 96) but fortunately not for long. I wonder if Savant thought we had turned on research across those past few turns from looking at the graphs, though. I admit that's a bit of fiendish delight for me and shouldn't be.

[Bacchus]

From the fact that Joey is in the Ancient era, I'm guessing the SoZ was built by Krill. His next wonder I would imagine to be Heroic Epic, can't really do much about that. Given that it's almost a certainty that he has Hindu (the only other option is Gavagai), I would imagine he would love a bit of Paya for himself for Theocracy.

Another word on food. You've read PB27, there we had atrocious food, knew that for a fact, and fully embraced it, building the game around MFG, which worked out fine. The advantage of course was that we had Ind forges, but I would still like to highlight that Civ is about finding synergies between what you have, and not trying to make stuff into what it isn't. Not having top CY around turns 80-130 due to objective map reasons is fine, you can (and should) build an entire game around it. Which brings me to: where are you building grass farms and what's the purpose? Not saying it's wrong, just as long as you know why you prefer a farm over a cottage.

For as long as we're the only civ that can serve both as a reference and potential target, Savant might tend to measure their civ's progress by our own tangible graphs
You seem to forget that Savant has made his way across the entire landmass by this point, judging by the workboat coming up from Yuri. I think he might have the best map knowledge out of everyone.

[Bacchus]

On the tech path, I suggest doing a little ranking based on various things the techs achieve. Our ultimate goals are: naval expansion, deterrence, maintaining a decent research rate and strike capability. We achieve this through increase in tiles worked, the quality of tiles worked, modifiers to production, discounts to units, bonus experience, which all don't have value in themselves.

The only meaningful way to help naval expansion is the Heroic Epic, which we definitely should seek to get, as well as building Moai. I think I would prefer the Eastern Vacant Sea rather than the Western one for that, but depends whether we have the prod necessary. Actually, because we can already settle the western seas, and we will have to catch up in the eastern sea, I think the national wonders really should go east, if we can find a good spot for them.

IW hits all of deterrence, research (gems) and strike, so I think we should even get it first.

Maths -> Calendar is actually strangely weak. Or, rather, their relevance is not immediate -- maths will help get cities up once they are settled, Calendar is necessary for them to mature properly, but these techs have negligible impact on the goals we are facing right now.

HBR is a deterrence tech.

CoL does a bunch of things on several fronts, provided we get Confu, but has pretty low immediate impact as you noted, unless we also get OrgRel, which would actually be huge.

MC is still triremes only, which are not yet important for naval expansion and strike, but will become relevant.

Mysticism is important for naval expansion.

I think we should get IW and Myst whatever. Then we need to decide whether we want to try for Confu and Paya or not.

[Coeurva]

From the fact that Joey is in the Ancient era, I'm guessing the SoZ was built by Krill.

It's in his capital. So your earlier assumption was correct; knowing that AGG/CHM benefits even more from this wonder than anyone else, he oracled Aesthetics.

His next wonder I would imagine to be Heroic Epic, can't really do much about that.

Am I leaking germanium?

Given that it's almost a certainty that he has Hindu (the only other option is Gavagai), I would imagine he would love a bit of Paya for himself for Theocracy.

Yeah, he'd be able to build 9XP horse units. I'd enjoy the Paya as well, but if he has gold already, we'll lose another race before we've entered it. The Music artist is in danger as well (also looking at PB27 for reference) unless, I guess, we beeline Maths->Aesth->Drama->Music, but even then we might not be faster than Krill.

Another word on food. You've read PB27, there we had atrocious food, knew that for a fact, and fully embraced it, building the game around MFG, which worked out fine. he advantage of course was that we had Ind forges, but I would still like to highlight that Civ is about finding synergies between what you have, and not trying to make stuff into what it isn't.

I had assumed that was part of the theme.

Serious talk: I think, also due to the map (naval expansion is slower by nature), that we're not at the point yet where we can truly spec our empire to lead categories other than food (in this game, it would be GNP, I think, not MFG -- but every city itself demands the question "what can this one do?", they can't all be Lifeblood) because our expansion is not saturated yet, neither the tall nor the wide part. A low CY at this point suggests (but by no means implies) that our cities aren't growing that fast, which can be desirable to lower the demand on workers, but you've already highlighted what I also enjoy the 'feeling' of and try to aim for -- a tiered growth curve of cities.

Incidentally, we have granaries in 7/9 cities by now, but in effect, the Khatunate has been using one of its six current granaries some 5t earlier at least. None of these effects show up in demographics (indirectly, they might manifest as higher crop yield -- if the pop isn't whipped off to further defer the F9-traceable reward).

Specialization is what the "midfielder" comment was about. Because who cares if we have ~20f less if we can grab a few first-to bonuses, i.e. improvements that tend to affect our entire empire (our "passing" skills, converting local advantages into benefits for other cities -- Currency, although not a "hard" first-to bonus, will be another), not only local growth rates here or there? After Currency, the midgame will open up for us and indeed lead to the consideration: what shall be our specialty? Others are already assembling wonders for this purpose.

Which brings me to: where are you building grass farms and what's the purpose? Not saying it's wrong, just as long as you know why you prefer a farm over a cottage.

Two at Sicil, one (still not done) at Vermin, both of which work enough mines that their food surplus dwindles -- Vermin takes 6t to grow to size7, which was 9t before I swapped mine -> new-built river cottage. Painful. Even reaching 3fpt easens that so much. The farm can also be shared with Zodiac Spire, which isn't as desolate but can combine it with lighthouse lakes later to reach 8 surplus, which is enough to 2t or 3t every pop growth for a while once the granary finishes.

At Ignis I'll also want two farms to balance out the mines, but that's post-CS only.

Edit: There's also one farm planned at Westward, as we'll need to recover from the library double-whip and boat single-whip that will occur; the other grassland gets cottaged. Close to the happy cap, I'll cottage over the farm subsequently as well.

You seem to forget that Savant has made his way across the entire landmass by this point, judging by the workboat coming up from Yuri. I think he might have the best map knowledge out of everyone.

Map knowledge, yes. Graphs, perhaps not, because if he meets a lot of people quickly, most of them will accumulate EP against him faster than he can match the magical 0.3 ratio, because he'll be the only new target.

The only meaningful way to help naval expansion is the Heroic Epic, which we definitely should seek to get, as well as building Moai. I think I would prefer the Eastern Vacant Sea rather than the Western one for that, but depends whether we have the prod necessary. Actually, because we can already settle the western seas, and we will have to catch up in the eastern sea, I think the national wonders really should go east, if we can find a good spot for them.

Ignis peaks at 10hpt, which is still too sluggish for Moai even with a 50% bonus from stone. Same for a potential spot at Eastern Ruins. If we want Moai, then we have to aim for OrgRel as well.

IW hits all of deterrence, research (gems) and strike, so I think we should even get it first.

Agree. It will also provide our workers with more meaningful tasks.

Maths -> Calendar is actually strangely weak. Or, rather, their relevance is not immediate -- maths will help get cities up once they are settled, Calendar is necessary for them to mature properly, but these techs have negligible impact on the goals we are facing right now.

Calendar can be used well for local goals, such as not ceding fish to Fountain Head if Savant becomes lusty about his stele and stuffs the city full of culture, or just for whipping out a few more galleys faster. That banana at Vermin is tempting as well if we can maintain a double-whip cycle or coordinate regrowth with new happiness boni.

With Maths, we can also reach Construction, which has a huge impact on when we can fight Yuri, and how well we can deter Savant, as well as a small economic impact from settler/worker movement across rivers.

CoL does a bunch of things on several fronts, provided we get Confu, but has pretty low immediate impact as you noted, unless we also get OrgRel, which would actually be huge.

Huge enough to justify two turns of Anarchy? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm curious. Most of our cities will gain about 3-5hpt besides the multiplier to whips and chops -- which I'd agree is strong, it's a "free mine" per city (which effectively means +1 food per city as well); trouble is that we have to spare some love for wealth builds and OrgRel does nothing there. It would go well with installing forges, though.

CoL + Maths also unlock Civil Service, although the beeline is probably of questionable value compared to other options, even when Bureaucracy provides ~10hpt, ~20cpt -- high civic upkeep doesn't help us (Julius would have approved more) and irrigation can't be spread all that much (in particular, the corn at Whitehall is doomed to stay dry, and the islands don't benefit). CS is also damned expensive.

I think we should get IW and Myst whatever. Then we need to decide whether we want to try for Confu and Paya or not.

Sounds good. Since we can probably 1t Myst at breakeven post-Currency, I'll put it first to spare X10 the agony of chopping a perfectly-forested deer, thus Myst -> IW -> CoL / Maths / HBR (in a pinch). Paya is out of reach if Krill has settled for gold (or can do it soon) and has researched Maths by now, and I'd guess that he does on both counts; and with his self-founded religion, as you've noted, it will appeal to him.

[Bacchus]

I doubt Krill has settled gold, I'd imagine he has been too busy with his war to get a naval presence, and no-one will trade maps with him.

OrgRel and two turns of anarchy -- yeah, that's tough, probably not a good trade. Coming back to Great Wall -- the spy is great for a left-field great person for later golden ages, that's the primary reason for building it. Someone eventually builds ToA for the same reason.

We do actually need to start thinking about the golden age GP as well. If he's not going to be bred in Caste, then maybe Aesthetics -> Literature -> Drama after IW is a reasonable path. Markets are too expensive, whereas a theatre in Whitehall would be appropriate.

[Coeurva]

Including where we want to produce the GA GP. However, Whitehall can feasibly 10t a market without whipping, which is faster than waiting for the theatre, and topping off towards the happy cap on 2 Merchants + 2 Scientists actually seems like a great idea for this city, due to Whitehall's limited tiles.

Preview of T93: we've met Krill, somehow. There's no Incan unit or border visible on this turn. He has offered map for map, but I've declined for now -- I'm leaning towards accepting because he will also have an idea of Gavagai's cities, but see caveat below. Krill has six cities and no gold, but gems and iron. Our EP accumulation with him is 4/0, but since we get graphs on JR4 next turn, we can switch over to him if desired. (Yuri also invests 3 EP/t against us, but he can't do much with research visibility and will probably not reach spies for a while.)

Also:

I'm almost completely sure this was just Savant's workboat passing through Krill's borders long before Sailing would have been researched, but still.

Yuri has a "trade has been fair and forthright" or whatever modifier towards Krill, but not vice versa. So Krill has definitely gifted him something. And I bet he'll give Yuri our map, although it's dubious whether Yuri would gain much from it.

JR4 hasn't met Krill.

EDIT: And I'd rather trade maps with Gavagai than with Krill, for that matter; we'll complement each other in our knowledge of Savant, and he must have info on Krill as well.

Actually, I'll just leave this as the T93 report and do a longer one for T94 again. There's not much to say, we're #5 in food again at 138 (best 151 -- tightly packed once more) and are growing cities etc. Sicil will grow onto two more riverside cottages that a helper city 44 of Rhapsody could take over later. 5t to settler at Lifeblood, 3t at Rhapsody. Savant's galley remains in place -- looks like he's guarding his fishing nets, which surprises me, but shows a bit of what he's thinking about us. The vaunted information! Of course, he might want to style himself as more defensive-minded towards us than he is, but: overthinking.

I also found myself wishing that Ignis could lighthouse the lake (by founding it 9 of its actual position), but that would have meant no Academy at this point yet. It's a wash. Still building a lighthouse because food is welcome. Sentry chariot on the way.