[Spoilers] Luff_Hi of Japan

[Kyan]

I am and was totally pissed. Not much I could actually do about it but YAZ is dead. I don't care what sort of terms he offers.

This game will very shortly take a very nasty turn for him.

Reasons? He thought I had leaked his plans (you could argue that I could have instead of the hints that I dropped Darrell's way) but, as I emailed him, he totally set me up ...

• told me his plans about Darrell
  
• accused me of leaking them
  
• breaks his NAP on the back of that accusation
  

Even if I did nothing, he could still argue the same logic. Talk about stitched up.

I just re-read the conversation you had with Darrell. In my opinion, you broke your agreement with Yaz. I think he's in the right.

Yaz: Willing to give me your opinion on something in PBEM2? Completely confidential though no sharing :P

You made it clear to Darrell that the persians were up to something, then asked he looked at their power followed by mentioning that defending his cities with axemen and immortals is boring. Technically, you didn't confirm anything but your leading questions and answers were just as revealing.

Yaz, i guess, doesn't know this for certain but he may well have guessed based on Darrell's defences/reactions. He shouldn't break a NAP based on a hunch, but i don't think you're clean here either.

Maybe i treat agreements too seriously. Don't get me wrong, i'm not having a go at you or even judging you. I just think it's shady diplomacy and you got burned. I'm unsure of why you're so angry.

[novice]

Reasons? He thought I had leaked his plans (you could argue that I could have instead of the hints that I dropped Darrell's way) but, as I emailed him, he totally set me up ...

I'm having trouble parsing this sentence. Did you mean "you could argue that I could have because of the hints that I dropped Darrell's way"?

[novice]

I just re-read the conversation you had with Darrell. In my opinion, you broke your agreement with Yaz. I think he's in the right.

I see that you're a dedicated lurker - alas I'm not. I'll respond to this in the no players thread - check it out in 15 months' time.

[Ruff_Hi]

@Kyan - yeah - you are probably right. I still think I was set up (see above).

I'm having trouble parsing this sentence. Did you mean "you could argue that I could have because of the hints that I dropped Darrell's way"?

yep - right - have edited my post above.

[Ruff_Hi]

I just re-read the conversation you had with Darrell. In my opinion, you broke your agreement with Yaz. I think he's in the right.

I ripped off an answer to this earlier but was in a rush - had to go pick up my bitch from the vet.

Lets go back to the original chat ...

• Yaz: Hey Ruff, you around?
  
• Ruff: hi there
  
• Yaz: Willing to give me your opinion on something in PBEM2? Completely confidential though no sharing :P
  
• Ruff: sure ... np
  
• Yaz: So I've got this japanese guy on my border I think I should just kill... j/k
  
• Ruff: yeah ... do it
  ...
  
• Ruff: ok, gtg ... see ya
  
• Yaz: cya
  Don't forget, no sharing this
  

Now, remember that this is chat and sometimes you get multiple themes mixed up in a single chat, other times there are ages between the lines. His line ...

Yaz: Willing to give me your opinion on something in PBEM2? Completely confidential though no sharing :P

... I read at the time as 'I want your opinion' to which my response was ...

Ruff: sure ... np

... then all the guff about attacking Darrell. At the time, I was thinking ... why is he telling me this and I cannot wait to spill it to my almost Treaty member - what a error on Yaz's part. There isn't anything about me not telling the world about this in any agreement between Yaz and I.

It ended with ...

Ruff: ok, gtg ... see ya
Yaz: cya

... and then some time later I saw ...

Yaz: Don't forget, no sharing this

... say what! At that point I scrolled back to the top and read the full line about not telling anyone. If I had read that first time through, I might (cannot say for certain) have raised the issue that there is no secrecy agreement between us - just to flag it with Yaz. Too late now that he has spilled the beans like this. I decided that the NAP didn't cover this and I was able to tell who I liked ... his 'don't tell anyone' was a request that I could heed or ignore with little or no consequences (apart from a broken trust, which he shouldn't have placed in the first place).

[Ruff_Hi]

So - do I think that Yaz broke out NAP? Yes I do. Do I think he was justified? No way - not based on his stated reasons (I think you betrayed me). So what if I did (and we can argue that for days). Where in our NAP or any other agreement does it say that I will not take anything that Yaz tells me and tell anyone I like? Nowhere ... that is where.

I don't actually think he was going to declare on me ... declare on Darrell, then SL to break horse trade but that was it. When he noticed that I had sent my Spear to my 3rd city and my copper city was empty ... I think he decided to say that I had broken the NAP and he was open to attack me. Guess he thought that he could kill me once I had no copper.

Will this have an impact on future Ruff / Yaz interactions in possible future games? You bet it will! Firstly, I don't think we will be involved in any future games and I will not trust one single word from Yaz. I will lie outright to him (not of these slight-of-hand words to try and deceive - straight up misdirection will be the order of the day. And I will try and kill him at each and every turn. In short, I don't trust him & I won't trust him.

Wow - Ruff ... isn't that a bit extreme?

No. Look at it this way - and I have said this before. Yaz tells me about his attack against Darrell. I say nothing to anyone. Yaz' units roll up, Darrell is ready for him and Yaz accuses me of spilling the beans, declares on me and kills my copper city with the aim of killing me outright. From Yaz' point of view, it could have totally happened this way and his actions would be identical (as would his justification).

From my point of view, it would look like Yaz deliberately told me his plans so that he could break the NAP at some future point in time - totally setting me up. How can you trust someone that would do that?

[Rowain]

He said completly confidential though no sharing and you answered sure np so your hinting to darrel which you used to get darrel to sign your treaty was a breach of this agreement. Combined with your earlier 'I didn't scout my south'-story it doesn't paint you as trustworthy or honest.
Had I not also read PBEM1 I would think of you as an very untrustworthy player.

PS: I think it would be good if you change it to a Japan vs Persia pov like you did with India & Greece in PBEM1

[Ruff_Hi]

He said completly confidential though no sharing and you answered sure np

I said above that I didn't see the second part of that sentence until after the discussion.

Combined with your earlier 'I didn't scout my south'-story

That is a 100% accurate statement. Sure, I was trying to make him think that I had no map knowledge of that area but there is nothing wrong with that.

[Rowain]

I said above that I didn't see the second part of that sentence until after the discussion.

Yes but Yaz doesn't know this.

That is a 100% accurate statement. Sure, I was trying to make him think that I had no map knowledge of that area but there is nothing wrong with that.

No nothing wrong per se but combined it makes you look quite untrustworthy.

[Whosit]

I'm not going to argue about who is right or wrong or if your reaction is justified or not, Ruff. All I'm going to say is: Do you want to leave that statement of declaration up? Yaz will eventually read this thread, once the game is over, and I'm just wondering if you care if he knows that you have marked him as an enemy for life.

I hope that Kyoto holds out. It still looks iffy to me. Do you think that you can do more than hold out? It seems like counter-attacking with just archers is going to be difficult at best.