[SPOILERS] Serdoas thread

[Serdoa]

Demos:

Maya and HRE got a tech. For HRE I am pretty sure that it is Sailing - what is bad for me for several reasons. One is that he can bring a galley relatively shortly to my 3rd city, so I will have to secure it more then I thought. The other is that he will expand to his island as there is not much place left on the main landmass.

The tech Maya got I have no clue. They received a tech 3 turns ago (TW was my guess) so I am not sure what they got now. They have Fishing already and got no soldier points, so it is neither Hunting (they should have it already anyway by my list) or Archery. So, a 73 beaker tech is the only thing left. Now, 73 beaker in 3 turns is high, especially as except for TT I think nobody has Pottery, so the highest I could come up with is around 19 research (with a multiplicator of 1.4 for a tech with a pre-req and an optional "pre-req"). Let it be 22, that means still some overflow from the last tech. And then it could either be Medi (does make to much sense as Poly is still around), Pottery or Masonry.

Guess I have to wait for Alphabet right now and can only guess for the time being. And Alpha won't be a high priority.

[Serdoa]

More diplo:

Dazed,

I am also glad that we could end that conflict and I would hope that we never have war again with each other. For that reason and to improve our relations, I thought about possibilities to work together and maybe help you in the process to catch up on city count. I think you researched Sailing last turn and I would certainly be interested to trade for a workboat and a galley from you, perhaps for another settler?

Let me know if that sounds interesting or maybe if you have another idea about such kind of a trade.

Kind regards,
Serdoa

I ask him for two reasons. First because I need a workboat and a galley better sooner then later (and for me it is easier to produce settlers) and second because if he agrees and builds units for me, he isn't building units to use against me

[Serdoa]

Diplo, short update:

scooter:

Serdoa,

Thanks for bearing with me... First off - are you good with that deal? You sounded like you didn't like it at first, and I don't want to push you into a deal you don't like. If you don't want to do that deal my feelings won't be hurt . Let me try to explain myself a little better, as I did a poor job of that last time.

Here's the thing for me. I won't have Organized Religion anytime soon - there are other more important things on my radar. So to make this deal I need to build a monastery. A monastery is 40h + 26h for the missionary comes out to 66h. I tend to view happiness bonus and shrine bonus as canceling each other out. The shrine bonus might be slightly better long-term, but I won't be getting a shrine for quite some time, but you get the happiness bonus immediately - and in this stage of the game with nice capitals, that happiness bonus is a huge benefit - trust me - I'm seeing it right now . Plus you have the snowball effect - a happy bonus now means working one more tile in each city early on which means higher food/production and/or more slaving ability which all snowballs.

So hopefully that helps explain my thought process. I think in this case a missionary-settler swap really is a dead-even trade, but you seemed to not think so, which is why I offered to throw in (an admittedly small) 10 gold. If you don't think that trade is worthwhile for your civ then I won't fault you for that. All that said, if you're good with the deal, here's what I'm thinking...

I took a look around, and I think I can be ready to start the exchange in 10 turns, possibly as few as 6. Here's what I'm proposing:

-We both load up the unit we are trading into a galley, and send them at each other at roughly the same time.
-Once we're in each other's cultural borders, gift the galleys, that way we don't have to waste time on a return trip.

I have to build a monastery, missionary, AND galley before I can do this (have started none of those) but I should be able to do it in 10 turns max, quite possibly less with some whipping. Do you think you can have the settler + galley ready in 10 turns? Also if you want to turn down the deal, please let me know ASAP so that I don't start on a monastery next turn .

So... your thoughts?

Thanks!

My answer:

scooter,

I am ok with the deal. Yes, I was not happy, but that had more to do with the feeling I got that our conversation has dropped somehow and is not as good as it was before. Your email relieved my concerns on that point.

For the deal itself. I have no issue to get a settler ready in that time period. But I miss sailing right now and I think you too? I will be able to start on it the next turn though, so around 6-7 turns to finish it I guess and then building the galley in 2-3 turns should be possible. The other issue that we have with galleys is that we have to declare war on Dazed to make it work as I atleast won't get Writing in that short period so no open borders yet. I am not sure how happy he would be with me doing that again to him, especially as you do it too. We probably should tell him and get some secureness that he won't kill our galleys (he got Sailing last turn).

I would think best would be if you talk with him about that, so that he does not believe I try to mislead him. What do you think?

Kind regards,
Serdoa

scooter

I need to sleep so a full response will come tomorrow, but galleys can go through borders without having open borders right? I thought that they could, which I was assuming in my idea. Hopefully I haven't assumed wrong!

Me

scooter,

I am right now at work but when the turn reaches you, please do not go on with the monastery (if you are building it solely for me). I have thought about that and have checked on civfanatics. Galleys cannot travel without open borders through enemy territory (Caravels can).

So, I guess it would either mean war (what I guess Dazed would not be to happy with) or land-travel or sailing around with the galley-passage way you've found (but that would surely take 12+ turns, so a total of 22 turns, not that great of an option either).

I am therefore thinking about different possibilities right now. I cannot elaborate right now on them, but will try to get back to you when I am at home.

So, scooter appearantly thought that galleys can enter enemy territory without starting war, what they cannot. I am not sure if he would even want to do our trade if we can't get an agreement with Dazed.

Therefore I am currently changing plans completely. Lets recapitulate what I need:

- workers
- happiness
- workboats
- galleys
- commerce (?)
- specialists (?)

The plan was to get Buddishm by scooter, research Medi, PH, Org.Rel - change civis and religion, get the missionarys going and have a happy cap of 6 for all my cities and 7 for the cap. That would take care of my happiness issues for the time being.

In between Pottery would come in, Workers and Settlers would be build and we would get more cities and cottage them. In the end, Joao is set up to get many cities fast and that means crushing the economy a little bit. But with the possibility to build cottages, I should be ok.

A galley and workboat would come by the deal with Dazed, also relieving the pressure of an attack a little bit and helping to go on with settling like crazy.

Now, this plan will not work out it seems and also it might be that scooter has started the monastery. I hope not - but we will see and till then I think about a "second plan".

I have several different routes in mind, but have to play them through to see which one is the most feasible. The goals are clearly:

- getting to at least 7 cities on the mainland and probably one on our island by turn 60
- getting enough happiness to grow those cities (6+)
- getting a higher research

So, I guess as soon as I get scooters reply, find out what Dazed is up to etc. I will let you all know my gameplan for the next 58 turns (till 1AD if I counted correctly).

edit: The plan I laid out above (getting Org.Rel etc.) does not sound as it would make much sense - thinking about it. Nobody got a religion except for scooter so I could go for Poly, Masonry, Org.Rel and would get one or two religions anyway... Ah, whatever, lets see what scooter is up to. If we can get something feasible going I might research Medi, build Monasterys to get the religion onto the other cities and ignore that part of the tree (and HR) for some time. Would change my plan extremely as without HR I need another way to get happiness and right now that would probably mean specialists instead of cottages and using the culture slider.

[novice]

Don't you need Drama to run the culture slider?

[Serdoa]

Yep, I do. It would be needed to research Writing, whip Librarys and then use the few specialists possible right now (at least I would have everywhere the food to do it) to generate enough beakers to research up to Drama. 664 beakers till I am there.

I produce 8 in the palace, 1 per city center, 2 with trade routes. I have no clue how much maintenance would be with 7 cities, probably 4gold+ per city? Right now it is 2 gold for my 2 cities, 1 for the cap. But both are at one pop.

So, basically every city needs to work a riverside cottage + one food tile + 2 specs. Production only through whip when it grows into unhappiness, 6 beakers per city. 7 cities x 6 beakers + some from palace and cottages ~ 50 beakers / turn. Roughly 14 turns for research. Much more as I am obviously not at 7 cities right now, need writing before specs and so on. Still, I think it is doable as long as the borders are save (and that is the big question). I'll probably try it in my sandbox to see the real maintenance as well as how long I need approximately and let you know.

I never tried that before so bear with me. That is all only a thought right now which I have never really calculated or anything.

[Serdoa]

So, before I go on with what I could do and how to set it up and this and that (and finally still not tell you something worthwhile), I decided to go over the demos:

Inca: 10 score points (1 pop, 1 tech)
Maya: 4 score points (1 pop)
Ottos: -
HRE: 4 score points (1 pop)
India: 6 score points (Pottery)

So we have right now:

Inca: 2 cities (6/2)
Maya: 2 cities (4/2)
Ottos: 2 cities (4/1)
HRE: 1 city (4)
India: 3 cities (3/1/1)

On to the more interesting stuff, the soldier points:

We had before an average of 23500, so 94000 total. That was divided the following:

Inca: 23000 (5 warriors, 7 pop, Mining, BW)
Maya: 26000 (4 warriors, 5 pop, Mining, BW, Hunting, TW)
Ottos: 20000 (1 warrior (!!), 4 pop, Mining, BW, Hunting, TW)
HRE: 25000 (2 warrior, 1 axe, 3 pop, Mining, BW, Hunting, Sailing)

Total: 94000

Now we have an average of 26250, so 105000 total - an increase of 11000.

1000 go for pop each to Inca, Maya, HRE. Leaves 8000. We have a highest of 32000, a lowest of 20000 (Ottos). We know that HRE stayed at 26000. So we have 46000 sorted out, leaves 59000 - one with 32000, leaves 27000. So Maya and Inca have 32000 and 27000.

Now, that gives an increase of 6000 for Maya and 4000 for Inca. Sounds wonderful, an axeman and TW... only that out of those points for each one 1000 are for pop - so we only have 5000 and 3000 to distribute.

I have gone through the demographics-explanation-thread on civfanatics and it seems the only possible explanation is: A Barracks.

If that is right (and as I have no other explanation I take it right now) that seems odd. Why to build a barracks at turn 28? Barbs should be no issue for axes - no matter if barb warriors or archers. And war against another player? Who would do something like that, so early into the game?

So, I guess I don't get it why they have produced a barracks. And not whipped, slow produced. 33 hammers - that would have been an axe and a warrior... or a worker as both are Expansive. And lets be clear here - if you do not need the axe, you surely do not need a barracks.

[Serdoa]

Oh, another thought: What is TT doing? 1 Warrior with 2 cities? Can that be true - still? It seems so and his graphs show the same, so I guess I did not get (much) wrong. What is he producing? A settler in his cap I would guess, by the long time it stayed at 3 pop. If that is right we will soon see another city coming up from him. But with one warrior to defend them all? He even told me in a chat (after I insisted) that he has only one. But that is some turns ago.

Really, I should not have taken a NAP with him and instead of looking at Dazed, I should have looked in the other direction...

[Serdoa]

Ha, scooter was so nice to talk to me by chat and I know now that I am wrong for that turn. He was the one going up to 32000.

So, Maya only 1000 increase through pop, so 3000 for pop. Still at 4 warriors, BW, Mining, Hunting, TW.

Inca instead has 8 pop (4000) Mining, BW, Sailing as techs. 5 warriors and 1 Axe.

[Serdoa]

Lurkers oh Lurkers, why did you not tell me that I can't gift an unit to somebody I am at war with and that I cannot enter borders without declaring war with someone I do not have open borders with?

I now have to tell Dazed that he will not be able to get a settler before he hasn't got Writing - or I have, but that will take some time for sure as I will not change my techpath for it. I guess novice I was wrong, I won't need 30 turns for drama... more like, one email to Dazed

[MWIN]

You can settle the city and gift it to him....

Lurkers oh Lurkers, why did you not tell me that I can't gift an unit to somebody I am at war with and that I cannot enter borders without declaring war with someone I do not have open borders with?