Is Sorcery too OP lategame?

[GMBarak]

The spells which make it overpowered IMO:

1. Spell binding = you can get 5 other very rare spells from other realms and can trade them.
2. Power link = 2500 Mana per turn in a many players game - will be much more than life force, for example.
3. Time Stop = give you free game turns.
4. Spell ward = makes your cities practically unconquerable
5. Mass invisibility = undispelable invisibility.

[Zypher]

The spells which make it overpowered IMO:

1. Spell binding = you can get 5 other very rare spells from other realms and can trade them.
2. Power link = 2500 Mana per turn in a many players game - will be much more than life force, for example.
3. Time Stop = give you free game turns.
4. Spell ward = makes your cities practically unconquerable
5. Mass invisibility = undispelable invisibility.

Sorcery is definitly a bit to op late game, but on the other hand it takes quite alot to get to lategame with a pure-sorcery build which is kind of needed to make sure you get the good stuff. But sure, if you get powerlink, spell wards going and have timestop you eventually should be able to take the game. But it usually comes at the cost of having a slow early game and quite alot of games turn out really rough if you play at the difficulty you can play with a for you more optimal build. 

I would say though I think specially Time-Stop should get a bit of a nerf. Yes, the cost of it raises alot when you take cities, but you can so easely work around that by lining up so you can take pretty much every city of an opponent in the same turn. It only really effect you if you only have like one hero-stack that are able to conquer cities and you can't conquer without that one.

[Seravy]

Apart from being hard to reach the endgame, I believe the "big 3", Spell Binding, Power Link and Time Stop are all "win more" type spells that help you only if you're already winning. Time Stop due to the extreme mana cost and casting skill requirement to provide a significant advantage (you pay 2000 casting skill up front so you'd need to gain more than that over the extra turns gained to break even and much more for it to be a worthwhile invetsment...of course this is only from the economy perspective, the logistical advantage is significant but Sorcery already excels in that area), Power Link because it relies on there being other wizards in the game who are left behind in spell research and cannot switch over to using high cost (very rare) overland spells instead of lower tiers yet aren't banished or eliminated from the game (the elimination mechanic puts that on a quite strict timer), and Spell Binding because the cooldown is so long you'd need be in a good enough position to be able to wait several years for gaining those spells.

but you can so easely work around that by lining up so you can take pretty much every city of an opponent in the same turn.

This is exactly what I mean by being a "win more" spell, if you already have enough armies to take a dozen cities on the same turn, you can probably win without Time Stop.

But yes, Sorcery was definitely the most difficult to balance and it's the most dangerous in the hands of a runaway AI or at least on par with Chaos.

If I had to point at spells, I'd say the most powerful ones are likely Magic Immunity, Spell Blast, Mass Invisibility, Spell Ward and then the "big 3" mainly when the player who obtains them already has an advantage to abuse them.
Djinn and Sky Drakes are pretty hard to stop, too.

[Desertfox]

Wind mastery (sorcery very rare) is also borderline OP. Making all your units fly in combat is a major tactical advantage.

[Suppanut]

I would beg for a difference on Power Link. It is best cast at time when a lot of opponents are around as it mainly scales by opponent numbers and intensive competition. If you already winning, value generate by Power Link would be much lower.

[Seravy]

I would beg for a difference on Power Link. It is best cast at time when a lot of opponents are around as it mainly scales by opponent numbers and intensive competition. If you already winning, value generate by Power Link would be much lower.

Does that mean the AI fails to stop using low tier spells and does not switch over to using mostly very rare summons or other 400+ cost spells instead?
They most definitely should be doing that, if not that's either a bug, or the AI in question does not have any such spell to cast instead.

[Suppanut]

I would beg for a difference on Power Link. It is best cast at time when a lot of opponents are around as it mainly scales by opponent numbers and intensive competition. If you already winning, value generate by Power Link would be much lower.

Does that mean the AI fails to stop using low tier spells and does not switch over to using mostly very rare summons or other 400+ cost spells instead?
They most definitely should be doing that, if not that's either a bug, or the AI in question does not have any such spell to cast instead.

More like they have other priorities that far more concerning than just avoid using cheap spells. If opponents are Life wizards, they have limit options and seem to wire into keep using small enchantments buff on one stack and anothers. If they fight among one anothers, their concern about someone profit from Power Link is much less than short term advantage that they need to win the war against immediate enemies.

Highest power gains from Power Link I have got tend to related to geopolitical situation such as intense war among wizards (that was how I got peak power that above 9999 before you nerf and put ceiling on it) which means it is not win-more spell but more of sit on the hill and see everyone fight while profit from ticket sales.

[Seravy]

I would beg for a difference on Power Link. It is best cast at time when a lot of opponents are around as it mainly scales by opponent numbers and intensive competition. If you already winning, value generate by Power Link would be much lower.

Does that mean the AI fails to stop using low tier spells and does not switch over to using mostly very rare summons or other 400+ cost spells instead?
They most definitely should be doing that, if not that's either a bug, or the AI in question does not have any such spell to cast instead.

More like they have other priorities that far more concerning than just avoid using cheap spells. If opponents are Life wizards, they have limit options and seem to wire into keep using small enchantments buff on one stack and anothers. If they fight among one anothers, their concern about someone profit from Power Link is much less than short term advantage that they need to win the war against immediate enemies.

Highest power gains from Power Link I have got tend to related to geopolitical situation such as intense war among wizards (that was how I got peak power that above 9999 before you nerf and put ceiling on it) which means it is not win-more spell but more of sit on the hill and see everyone fight while profit from ticket sales.

Might be a player count issue then? Even if they shift focus to more expensive spells, if for example they use one 100 cost city buff each turn, which they might, at 5 players that adds up to 2000 power. At 10 players to 4000. I tried to do everything possible to make the retire system achieve a low player count in the endgame but it's not an omnipotent solution and global enchantments affecting enemies do scale up and get more powerful when there are more players in the game.

...at least it doesn't counter all spells anymore like Suppress Magic.

[Suppanut]

I would beg for a difference on Power Link. It is best cast at time when a lot of opponents are around as it mainly scales by opponent numbers and intensive competition. If you already winning, value generate by Power Link would be much lower.

Does that mean the AI fails to stop using low tier spells and does not switch over to using mostly very rare summons or other 400+ cost spells instead?
They most definitely should be doing that, if not that's either a bug, or the AI in question does not have any such spell to cast instead.

More like they have other priorities that far more concerning than just avoid using cheap spells. If opponents are Life wizards, they have limit options and seem to wire into keep using small enchantments buff on one stack and anothers. If they fight among one anothers, their concern about someone profit from Power Link is much less than short term advantage that they need to win the war against immediate enemies.

Highest power gains from Power Link I have got tend to related to geopolitical situation such as intense war among wizards (that was how I got peak power that above 9999 before you nerf and put ceiling on it) which means it is not win-more spell but more of sit on the hill and see everyone fight while profit from ticket sales.

Might be a player count issue then? Even if they shift focus to more expensive spells, if for example they use one 100 cost city buff each turn, which they might, at 5 players that adds up to 2000 power. At 10 players to 4000. I tried to do everything possible to make the retire system achieve a low player count in the endgame but it's not an omnipotent solution and global enchantments affecting enemies do scale up and get more powerful when there are more players in the game.

...at least it doesn't counter all spells anymore like Suppress Magic.

Retirement system does not works if player stay at the bottom of ranking. If player is stay at bottom of pecking order, other wizards would be unlikely to retire. Due to I mostly play defensive and isolationist, I tend to be the weakest wizard. and this make ai wizard rarely get retired in my playthrough.

And yes, case of Power Link is linked with number of players around. It is the most broken thing anyone would get early once banned on very rare spell in lair is lifted if you play 13 opponents game.

Due to this, I have to create different Power Link for Warlord mod due to CoM's Power Link is so difficult to balance.

[Desertfox]

For example, AbsoluteZero started a new Caster of Magic Let's Play on Youtube two weeks ago. About 1507 he found a Power Link spell in a dungeon and cast it. His power income shot up:

Nodes 604 power (with Astrologer retort)
Cities: 90 power
Units: 30 power
Power Link: 2614 power
total power: 3338

Yeah, Power Link made quite a difference. Power income went up from 724 to 3338, which is a factor of 4.6 . And that was with only 8 opponents.

Next turn:
Nodes 604 power (with Astrologer retort)
Cities: 100 power
Units: 30 power
Power link: 3095 power
total power: 3829

Power Link income went up to 3095 power, other sources being 734, for a total of 3829 power. Thus, Power Link increased his power income by a factor 5.1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FBPML15UXc