[spoilers] Pindicator's Diplomacy thread for France

[xist10]

Thanks for the writeup.

[sunrise089]

Yes good update, really appreciate both the summary of the actions you took as well as those you didn’t.

[pindicator]

I still am thinking of ways i can "make it up to" England.  Support him into Hol and have him get support from Russia into Den.  Really would have worked if Russia had actually supported him into SKA in the first place.  Then my fleets back down south to the Med in a huge ruse.  Really, England should be proposing this to me.  He should be saying "look, you backed the wrong horse.  We could have had a devastating attack on Germany.  Instead now you just have a 50/50 to land your army this year and I'll have Russia helping me next year so good luck.  Here's your chance to get it right."  Who cares if Russia is really helping him or not, he should be acting like Russia will be.

Instead, he hasn't said anything because I'm sure he's upset at being betrayed.  In a game about betraying people.  So I'm sure even if I did get him on board I'd then just end up with two upset neighbors, and all the other nations are going to see me as someone who betrays anybody the first chance he gets.

For the record, if I ever do stab you in a game and then immediately propose something like this after, I am being 100% honest.  I do not have it in me to be that callous and deceitful.

[pindicator]

Spring 1903




Sorry about the missed reporting, I had a bit of a rough week in general.

Had a bit of a conversation with England after my betrayal where I started by asking him why he wasn't even trying to talk to me about turning around - he said he had just assumed it was pointless. Which was a pity because there was potential to stab Germany in the fall of 02 ... especially if he had gotten into SKA. I then asked him point blank if he asked Russia to him help into SKA and he said he did. Which is exactly the opposite of what Scooter told me. Though Adrien then admitted he could have been a bit more explicit about it.

I tried to shop around a general truce between him, me, and Germany if we all turn around and fight Russia-Turkey. (Well, in Fall I was under the misconception that it was a Wintergreen and not a Juggernaut, but that matters little now.) Germany wouldn't bite and England wouldn't agree to anything without me turning around. So I told him that I unfortunately could not get an agreement and had to press on. Then made the moves above.

I correctly guessed he was going to try to prevent a landing in Cly - that was the whole point for saving the fleet in NWG over the fleet in NTH. So instead I moved my fleet to Cly to bounce him. Then I moved my other fleet up to IRI and instead of trying to land an army offered to support Germany into NTH. Now we're in position to take 2 centers off England, so once again I've gone to him with an offer to fight against Russia. We'll leave him with 2 centers if he helps us fight Russia in the north. Otherwise I think Germany and I are going to have to eliminate him ASAP. One of the things he told me was that most of his conversation this game has been with Russia ... of course it has, Scooter has really been wining the diplo game here.

I've already discussed my build with Italy - I'm going to build a fleet in Mar and use it to try to help him in the Med. Army in Marseilles is moving to Piedmont at Italy's invitation. No plans to stab Italy or Germany right now - I really am too worried about losing to an RT Juggernaut.

It would be nice to get Germany a build, but we have a problem with him not having an open center to put it in. If we can't sort a way to free up one of his home centers I'm going to suggest he takes Lon and I take Hol and I'll build another fleet in Brest. Don't want to do that, though, because then I'm suddenly on 8 centers with Russia and Italy + Germany are probably doubting my intentions.

[pindicator]

Fall & Winter 1903

Fall Moves & Winter Builds in the Spoiler

I tried again to go to England and offer for him to go against Russia. He didn't want me to take any of his centers, naturally, but had promised Italy that my next build was going to be a fleet in Mar to help him in the south against Turkey. I didn't feel good about the conversation with England (again), and figured he was going to throw against me and just help Russia win in the north. Which really was a frustrating take on the game, feeling like everything is just going to break Russia's way all game. I even wrote a bit to Italy about how I was sure England was going to disband Edi and just give it to Russia - which thankfully did not happen.

Germany made the decision in the end to protect BAL and abandon NTH. Considering scooter supported himself into NTH, I think that ended up being the correct choice. The only downside was some of the initial discussion between me and Germany was supporting him into Lon and he ended up thinking he was getting a build even when he decided not to take the center. Hope he wasn't counting on that build for something important.

Italy had a 50/50 decision for defense and unfortunately chose incorrectly. I pulled my army back to Gas instead of advancing up to Pie because I was concerned about this exact scenario - now what if Turkey decides it's better to cause chaos and try for an undefended Spain? So that's why the army went back to Gas.

As for the spring, England surprised me: he's already asked if I'm serious about Russia or not. So I proposed to him an idea. If Russia isn't expecting us to work together then we might be able to get a real jump on him in the north, and I'll pull 1 fleet back to help Italy more.

At the very least, we need to think about stalemate lines. I'll have to get fleets in the western med to keep turkey out - i think I can potentially fall back to spain and MAO if it comes to that. But in the north we have to push back Russia. There's just no answer if he they swallow Germany.

[pindicator]

I concede. I didn't think I would dislike the idea of betraying deals so much but I really don't care if Adrien takes it all from me or if nobody wants to stop scooter or whatever

[pindicator]

Also: how very boring that Turkey just threw in with Russia for the entire game. Just made it a boring game for the rest of us as we had to reciprocate or be steam-rolled. We still might be steam-rolled, some people in the west still don't seem to understand this.

[pindicator]

Fall & Winter 1904




I calmed down again and told England that it wasn't late, that he could still have a place on the table if he fought against Russia, but he needed to do it NOW because Russia was going to stab him in the fall and take Edi.

Look, I've calmed down a bit. Sorry about being heated. It's not too late if you want to get your home cores back, but you need to keep Russia from taking Edi this turn.

I've only deceived you one time this game, when I moved into the channel. Every other turn I've been up front with my moves, even when I couldn't get anyone to work against Russia before. Do I regret working with Germany instead of you? Absolutely, he has stopped really communicating once he realized Russia was overwhelming him in the east and he never followed through after convincing me to attack you. At least you communicate ... even if we just seem to butt heads.

But England just couldn't see it. He said he didn't believe that Russia would stab him, yet stab him he did. Now we have yet another Russian fleet to contend with.

At this point England is done. I keep him around as long as he supports what I want, but once he starts going off on his own I'm going to take London. And let's be honest, he's going to just go off on his own. Ever since he got stabbed he just became focused on retaking his home cores, even at the cost of him living long enough to potentially achieve that objective. It's not that wanting to retake his home cores was wrong, it's that throwing away all diplomacy and insisting that he be allowed to retake his home cores before doing any negotiations is just inviting other parties to not want to deal with you. I actually laid out a path to him where I could get him his home territories back: once we had pushed Russia back, as soon as he took a core off Russia I would tell him to retake all his home cores with his new build. I said this to him because as soon as we started turning the tide and pushing Russia back then it wouldn't matter if he took a core off of me, the threat of being overrun in the north would be over.

Instead he insisted he take his cores back NOW. Never mind that this would give Russia more time to consolidate his position. Never mind that this was wasting time we just did not have. That's why I lost my cool with him when he lied to me in 03 and threw in with Russia: it wasn't just a bad play for throwing to the leader, it was also just so obviously against his own interests if he could just take a moment and look at the board from Russia's perspective.

Anyway, here we are: Russia did attack and take Edi because he tried to take Liv instead of covering Edi. And I was upset at myself for not moving into NWG, because I could have had more leverage over Russia this turn or helped Germany hold NTH more.

Germany is my other frustration, in watching them constantly give up NTH time and time again. And he's going to give it up again here now to try and get BAL in the Spring, but at least I've got England to say he'll support me into NTH. I'm moving into NTH and NWG, and I've told England that the plan is to set up a screen against Russia first, then that will allow him to move up to Edi and I'll help him retake it because Russia won't be able to influence him. This, of course, is a pile of horse manure. Not because it isn't my intention: I would absolutely still do this if Russia allowed. It's horse manure because Russia will never allow it. Russia probably bounces me in NTH by trying to move Edi back into there with support from SKA or Nor - or worse, wins out with both moving. At least I'm also trying NWG this turn so I should at least win one. But Russia has a 5th fleet in StP (that I told him I was not happy about), and that if he wanted me to help him with Germany then he needed to give some kind of assurance that I wasn't next. He hasn't responded to that.

Turkey refuses to talk to me until Italy is eliminated, and says he'll only discuss stabbing Russia after that is finished. That is entirely too late for him to stab Russia! You need to do this kind of move before your ally is expecting it, and once Turkey is done with Italy and butting up against the stalemate line in the western med then he will have missed his window to take Russia unawares. Also, Russia is completely tied down with Germany right now, but that won't last forever. At least Turkey built an army in Con, and in the spring he'll tell Russia he has to move it to Bul but that Russia shouldn't worry about Rom because of course the army has to move there.

I dont' know if I should stab Germany or not. I don't want to, and I don't think I should right away, but I also don't want Russia to stop talking to me yet. So I'll move in the spring (mostly) like Russia suggested, and then try to tell Germany that I'm moving out of Hol and that it is his core. But yikes, that might shake his trust.

I feel like half the field treats allies like this was a game of Civ4. It's not, it's a completely differnet game. You're supposed to double deal in this one.

[T-hawk]

Yeah, I've been feeling your frustration too with both England and Germany, reading along on the Discord channels. We always say neighbor luck is the biggest part of the Civ games, and yeah that can be for Diplomacy too (or any war game really.)

[pindicator]

So I'm probably going to stab Germany and deal with Russia but I kind of hate the idea of doing that. (And not just because it will be Russia at 12 and me at 10 with one of those being a Kie that he can take whenever.) Germany is stuck and been a solid ally and I really don't want to betray that ... He asked me this turn if I was going to stab him and said he'd understand if I did. Yeah, that's twisting a different kind of knife...

I also have no idea how to get closer to the leaders without doing this. Also I have no faith in Italy holding out for much longer, and that would leave Turkey at 11 with me not having anything in place to hold the stalemate line. So I need to resolve Germany and England and sort something with Russia before Turkey starts looking for his next avenue of expansion.

Dammit, I think I have to stab Germany here and I really hate it