[PB84 Mjmd] Bounding Main

[Mjmd]

Its been a second, but if you think I'm done with sea shanties you CRAZY!

Honorary mention because its 50 years today  "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" - Gordon Lightfoot (HD w/ Lyrics)

Anyways, I don't usually do songs where you can see the performers because you should be reading not watching, but whatever I guess people can choose for this thread. This is a local band I just encountered this year at my local historical society. All songs will be from them this thread even if I have to repeat songs from past games, although they have quite a few unique ones, its just if I can find their version on youtube or not. This will obviously be my capital song. They do have a more professional version on youtube, but I like the little jokes they insert in their live performances.



Its looking like king of the hill. Before Scooter made the suggestion hadn't meant this to be a king of the hill game, but as I stated in set up thread if not this map then when? Also, give a pretty clear way for game to end. Might increase phil rating just because the obvious thing to do is take the barb city and bomb it with a great artist. We still have to set how long you need to hold said city, but still that is the most obvious way to hold it. I'm not big into phil, but I do plan on NOT taking org as it seems like sadly snake won. I've done org a lot and kind of want to go back to my roots and pick a fin leader, but shall see.

Civs NOT Zulu. I've been zulu a lot recently. I'm half tempted to go newly nerfed America, because I'm pretty sure its still good, but will see.

[Mjmd]

BONUS CONTENT



Its not a sea shanty so probably will not be a city.

Anyways, I don't play much single player civ anymore but I do do co op games with a friend vs AI. This is his first game at emperor. This will just be a quick recap for funsies. 

This is base beyond the sword, so rolling pro/spi of Arabia needing work boats wasn't great. Bxturtle got us some worker techs via Zulu. Honestly don't remember his leader. Creative something not that useful, but not spiritual. 

You just get beginning of our play through yesterday screenshots all 2 of them. I took 3 but forgot to save 3rd to imgur. Anyways, I got a lovely created out of tundra start so I was pretty leery on emperor especially as spi/pro.



Luckily south of me was pure gas. There was a lot of debate on where to put Medina. Bx was all for me going first ring horse, but I liked where its at and then going for the copper fast. Plus I didn't want a lot of border tension if I could avoid it (which proved wise) as we did know that Stalin Napoleon was another of the teams and didn't know where they were. So I chopped out a monument while roading and chopped out the copper city settler. Damascus is now my wall street oxford city. I BARELY got the deer city, was literally 1 turn away from losing and only because computer(sitting bull was stupid). I should mention we do unrestricted leaders so it was sitting bull of Inca, but personalities we leave so when you see Stalin and Napoleon on a team its fun. I basically settled down the river. Everything west of the river was Sitting Bulls. (city west of Jute was placed later. Corn belonged to Willem originally 2nd ring. I had actually placed the city earlier after one of the times Willems city was taken but was razed and I only resettled later).



But ya I settled down the river in a line all the way to the double gold. Before I improved one of the golds I was losing gold at 0% at one point. But I ended up carrying us in GNP for most of the game until relatively recently (were tied as of these screenshots). 

Bxturtle had a somewhat barren start. He went NE to grab his horse and block off the mountain pass. There were two computers east of his capital / mountains with 3 / 4 cities respectively. I don't remember who they were honestly. Part of why Bx's GNP was bad for so long was because they declared war vs him quite a bit and got some pillaging in at his capital. He was never in danger of dying but he couldn't push them for a long time as it was 2 emperor AI vs him for a long time. I couldn't help him. 

Even though I was part of a Stalin Napoleon Jewish block it is still Stalin and Napoleon. So I stayed safe for a little while early, which is what I needed, but that gold city did cause some border tension. I probably would have been doomed but Willem of Mali was Sitting bulls team mate and as you might imagine Stalin (especially) and Napoleon were worst enemies with them. Willem was approximately the conquered territory west of my gold city although one of them was sitting bulls. Willem on 5 cities was still the GNP leader for most of the game until he died. And yes there were multiple multiple times Stalin attacked him (Willem originally did have 6 cities, but most of the times he was attacked he had 5). This was VERY fortunate for me as it wore both Stalin and Napoleon down so when they did eventually attack me their armies weren't overwhelming and Stalins was out of position so I could take them one at a time. Have I mentioned Stalin was Bazantium and yes I had to fight them once in the medieval period. But ya overall history it went Computer war x2 then war vs me and then alternating as they couldn't plot vs the other when they had a peace treaty. I had some city raider swords from taking Jute the barb city and did manage to take Lagos off Napoleon. I should mention poor Napoleon had an even more capital out of ice start then I did. 

Anyways, while my border with Sitting Bull wasn't BAD, it still had some border tension. And for some reason during one of the peace treaties they had with Stalin Napoleon he decided to attack me despite the fact I had given Willem one of his captured cities back (I had taken it back during medieval war). I had seen it coming so I smashed his stack (while bigger then Willems he also had somewhat been worn down fighting the others so it wasn't huge). In a miracle instead of attacking me Stalin and Napoleon may have actually liked their Jewish brother at this point to not be plotting vs me and did the smart thing and piled into them. This set up a race for territory. We had JUST gotten rifles and I had a descent stack of knights, but it still took a bit to get rifles to the front lines along with eventually cannon. Luckily Willem and sitting bull held out just long enough for me to pick up most of Sitting Bulls territory. Now Willems capital is VERY VERY good with a bunch of wonders. I tried sending all my knights to snipe it, but sadly Stalin took it easily while another city they fell short and I could have sniped that one if I hadn't been greedy. 

Anyways, even as Stalin and Napoleon went free religion they still loved us from fighting a mutual enemy, so we had peace for a long time. It was getting to the point Bx thought we were safe and was doing some wealth builds. Something in our monarch games I typically would be doing by modern era as well. Plan was space. It kind of looked like Stalin was going culture (weird right?), but he was still a long ways away. But this was emperor and while combined we had a slight GNP lead it wasn't huge and Stalin / Napoleon were ahead of us in some areas, while being overall behind and taking sub-optimal routes. I had gotten mining inc and had been producing A LOT of units. However, the overall army strength was about even as Bx was in last place. Anyways, shortly after we got mechs Napoleon decided my massive culture couldn't be tolerated anymore (which is the main non military thing I had been working on including multiple sets of cathedrals as I had multiple cities on his border not controlling a first ring tile. You can see former Napoleon city getting broadway in above screenshot. Luckily I had recently gotten those tiles so when the invasion happened I had A turn to react. We had literally just teched artillery that turn and I had been saving gold for a switch into free religion plus we were getting laboratories up (yes we were late on artillery but we were unsure if we would get from internet in a team game, which we didn't). Anyways vs Stalin I used about 3k gold to upgrade my cannons as I had two tiles of culture there, but down south I didn't have the time so had to go in with cannons. But Bx was also down there so even though I fell short, it was the first time our armies got to help each other, which meant total wipe. 

But ya within a couple turns I had taken 4 cities and now we will be doing a domination win, which we are just short on land area. Its just usually faster to go space vs mainly me fiddling around with units, but ah well.

[El Grillo]

Nice, how did you set up the multiplayer lobby? I've been thinking of playing some co-op vs AI civ4 with some old friends, but we kept running into various technical issues between the four of us (unable to invite via Steam, not seeing the game in the lobby, being unable to join, desyncs, etc.).

[Mjmd]

I'm not sure 4 is possible. We do direct IP connection and even that has its issues. Usually we each have to try to join an open game the other player creates before it finally lets us in. COULD try doing that with 4. Have everyone try to join the person who is actually going to host, then go around and have each person try joining another, and then finally back to person who is hosting. /shrug.

[El Grillo]

Gotcha, thanks. I remember way back in the day we were able to set up 4-player games via virtual LAN, but no dice.

[Mjmd]

Pick analysis time.



There will be a much longer analysis of map and position I got. 

Bing - Victoria (Fin/Imp) of Netherlands
Xist - Darius I (Fin/Org) of Germany
Tarkeel - Shaka (AGG/EXP) of Zulu
Superdeath - Kublei Khan (Cre/Agg) of Sumeria
Civac2 - Elizabeth (Fin/Phil) of Egypt
Mjmd - Willem (Cre/Fin) of America

Bing - Victoria (Fin/Imp) of Netherlands - For those American reading that follow football there is a phrase anyone can win on any given Sunday. And most of players here are within close enough distance of skill that is true. Just being honest Bing is probably the worst player here (IE the Giants). Tarkeel kept wanting to know players positions ahead of time and there were two reasons I didn't like that A) I wanted honest map feedback and edits (even though I didn't get any, but it helped me do some so eh) B) it may have impacted picks in relation to Bing. Most games you don't get that info ahead of time so I felt ok about doing this. Anyways, this is my long way of saying I REALLY like the Victoria pick. Listen if you have trouble in the early game pick imperialistic either fin or org. You will probably be relevant. May not win, but its fun being relevant and a good way of gaining experience. I've done this a lot. So leader pick A+. Dutch is a good late game civ and there is more water and more chances for water aggression than I think people would associate with a land locked king of the hill spot. That being said, I don't like it for him. It is something to watch out for especially as I am one of his neighbors.

Xist - Darius I (Fin/Org) of Germany - Xist won the last greens game, but supposedly that was one of his best performances. But I do think he is a player to watch. I know he plays a lot of games and from what I've seen recently he isn't a slouch. That being said late game leader of late game civ does not impress me. I've wanted to do Darius myself for a while, but I've been waiting for a capital I can pair with India to make up for the slow traits. I have to admit to not doing a sim, but just looking at the capital I decided I didn't want to do a mining tech civ (with possible exception of Rome if America wasn't available). Xist actually said he was considering Rome (again), and he probably should have just done it.

Tarkeel - Shaka (AGG/EXP) of Zulu - Heh restricted combo! Not the first time its happened. There are "goodie" areas on the map and I suspect those are what Tarkeel is aiming for. I'm curious if Shaka was always the plan or if he wanted SDs Kublei. For the record I don't think agg is needed with Zulu. I've played Zulu a number of times now without being agg and its not needed. That beign said agg is a descent trait in CtH and that extra collateral promo may be key trying to take the center. But still think this leader pick is a bit under. 

Superdeath - Kublei Khan (Cre/Agg) of Sumeria - I love the creative pick, but unlike Zulu going agg is meh. I get it synergizes with Sumeria and I get he is SD, but maybe I like Zara cre / org a bit too much (and yes even before the nerf I've done Zara of Sumeria and its only more relevant now). I was looking at Sumeria (and a bit Egypt) as wheel civs that didn't have mining or myst. Even with the nerf Sumeria is still a good pick.

Civac2 - Elizabeth (Fin/Phil) of Egypt - Is this the game for Elizabeth? Maybe. I like pairing with Egypt for an early shrine. Civac I believe is on record for saying he thinks the monk wonders are busted so its also possible he uses an early priest to go for AP. Can always do a shrine after. Plus as mentioned Egypt has good starting techs for this map. IE most expensive relevant tech wheel plus something. I was at one point considering Japan for the fishing wheel combo (plus drafting Samurais). 

Mjmd - Willem (Cre/Fin) of America - For some reason did I think we were reverting the UU back to minuteman when we nerfed the UB? Yes yes I did. But we didn't and I didn't realize before I picked. And I still think its BUSTED. Should I have gone Zara? Maybe. Part of why I went Willem is I've gone Zara a lot. Part of it is the amount of water. I do think game has chance to go late as well. In addition I think there is a chance while getting to engineers I work a scientist off and on have a 33% ish chance for a scientist intsead of early engineer and an early academy with financial is something I've wanted to do with America. Early engineer is still the goal, but with the nerf might have to add some scientist risk into the pool to help with timing. That being said, producing 1 engineer or 2 during the game should be easily possible. Also, as mentioned great artists will be key. I do think creative is better than normal on this map and I usually think creative is pretty good. Obviously part of that is the center contest, but next post when I go more into the map I think it will be even more obvious. 

Last note I'm glad no one went cre/pro. Even with the monument in the barb city I thought it was possible someone would and just try to pink dot a holy city to get a cheese win backed up by protective archers. It probably would have been obvious and I think the lack of production in the center (due to jungle) also would have made it hard.

[Mjmd]

Lets do some map analysis.



The nice thing about a known map is you can dot map ahead of time. There is a reason I took creative. Look at city #2 and #3 specifically.  I turned the resource icons off as it made the screen very busy. While there are differences in starts, the general shape and trends are the same.




A key question was what to do with the capital and early cities? The pig copper was an obvious second (this also meant mining wasn't a great starting tech and there were worker and resource efficiencies from starting with hunting or agr). The capital also has A TON of early food. If this was an in the dark pick process charismatic would have been a possibility (I in fact have only played cha once and I liked it, but it was because of a capital with lots of food). Anyways, this meant I wanted to share food with the capital and the only way to both claim new food and share food was creative. Has the bonus of getting ivory early. Long term a production city, but early can swap food around for whips and help grow cottages. Gold advancing towards the center with either a wet rice or dry corn is an obvious city for everyone. But as creative I can do both. #4 I want to take a cow that loosely belongs to Tarkeel (its technically on the deviding line, but his side of the river makes it look more like his) as well as a couple of river grasslands. I'll get into why I think I can get away with this, but obviously creative borders are nice. Not sure if stone city or island is #5 and I'm actually favoring the alt locations. 

Now because we used the pre-existing championship map there are some variances. Next screenshot players are labeled, but Tarkeel and SD will have less maintenance due cap distance calculations, helping make up for them being the only leaders without a dedicated econ trait. I meant to add a small river for the other 4, but I just didn't care quite enough. The barb city had to go in one of 4 tiles that were the center. Past stupid Mjmd made a mistake and placed it by just looking at resources and what that seemed to indicate was center. Current Mjmd realizes it gave one of the few instances even if I had placed in the other 4 tiles of instances where you can push the barb culture / put culture down towards the middle early and still have access to non jungled area. There is a monument (that will easily double culture) in the barb city so I expect 3rd ring culture by the time get to settling. In any case I expect that city to be #7. The hill spot is a better city and leaves open another city to go get some stuff that loosely might belong to Bing. The banana spot puts culture directly on the barb city for an eventual flip and you know if someone could get a great engineer easily somehow to I don't' know build MoM or somewhere for free somewhere........ 

Now why do I think that cow is pretty free to grab? I've marked in orange below some what I'm calling "goody areas". Areas of high resource density and the circled ones along rivers. 2 / 3are in contested areas. Civac has easy access to river goody areas depending how he places, so I've marked and count. He might have gotten even luckier than me. However, the BEST of these areas is the one where Tarkeel and Xist will start to collide.



So if you are Tarkeel are you going to care about a cow vs an area that makes me drool? Are you going to risk Darius getting that? There is a second factor. Because of the gold city plus very little worthwhile to there right (should have named oasis cow, but still hardly an inspiring city to settle early as a #4) most people will expand left up their peninsula. A dry wheat sheep 2nd ring marble is pretty obvious #4. Although if you settle gold wet rice its not too hard to go right if you have a goody area that way, it is harder.

Some downsides is that my wheat and corn on the left are much harder if not impossible to irrigate without taking up too much cottage land in comparison to some of the other spots. Small price to pay. 

Internet cookie to whomever can identify the song they are parodying. Especially as I haven't made it a city before (as I wasn't sure what it meant, but thanks to this group it will probably be a city name this game).

[scooter]

So, the weird thing about the publicly available map is there's not a whole lot to discuss, and the early turns will be extremely boring. Your dotmap makes sense, so not much to add.


Instead I'm thinking a little bit about what should be done with regards to macro. I know you said to me you have no concerns about players sniping the barb city early. I'm not quite so sure this is right. I actually think there's a pretty big chance someone will try to culture cheese it by rushing an Artist or two, and pink dot + bomb and pray to RNG you get a quick flip. I don't know off the top of my head what the flip odds look like with a culture bomb from 3 tiles away + the specific defenders in the city, but it is easily testable.


Actually, let's test it right now. I settled a city 3S of the barb city and culture bombed it. It flipped to me in 10 turns. Not sure if that's on the low or high end of the range of outcomes, but it sounded plausible to me. It actually flipped instantly without a first revolt - I'm blanking on if this is normal for a barb city or not. So I think this should be taken seriously. Actually, I'll go a step further and say city flipping should have been disabled for this game. I think a Parthenon rush and/or Music beeline should both be seriously considered. Let's say 10T flip and 15T hold - that's not a lot of time for opponents to react.


I'm not necessarily saying you should be the one to do it (though maybe you should), but I think you've undersold to me the likelihood that someone will do it extremely early. Civac could do it for sure.

[Mjmd]

I tested and with the T0 monument the barb city expands to 3rd ring T63 (might have been T62, but I was going through fast). I attempted to culture bomb it with a 4th ring city on banana T101 which I think is much earlier than possible. I didn't get second ring culture until 13 turns later and 30 turns later it wasn't even close (single digits of my culture on the center tile). This is why I thought the only possible culture threat was a pink dot religious city cheese.That doesn't mean me building wonders on the banana is a bad idea for a longer term flip attempt. Edit: although it might be worth testing further how long that kind of attempt would take as I do like the hill city better.

[Mjmd]

Bonus content! 

Listen everyone knows the map so there aren't scouting reports. 

So after the last game friend and I started another game.While I don't have time to watch Sulla's civ stuff anymore this friend is the one who introduced me to him and he still does. So ya he wanted to do an emperor boreal map.....



Luckily I'm Wang Kong (fin/pro) of the unluckily netherlands. But I have a descent chunk of the riverside grasslands on the map and I'm financial so you know its something. AND SO MANY DEER. Beavers sightings 0. Bx had a second gem he was eventually able to hook up, but it was delayed. Both because it was far from him and because war and Alex had a couple random units that direction. But ya between close borders and Alex being Alex we got attacked early. However Louis of Germany is lacking metal. Even still I BARELY held my iron city and probably only thanks to protective. Chopped an army of swords backed up by spears (I barely had metal and its the reason the border tension was even higher as its that iron in the SW). Protective archers behind walls (Bx loaned me stone) meant I held pretty easily in the east. We did fail to get mids which is why I had the stone originally, but the fail gold helped get us to currency. We identified mids as one of the two key wonders due to lack of happy. Other being Notre Dome. Anyways, I took a border Germany city and his capital and then made peace for 310 ish gold. I was losing gold every turn at the time (honestly any time my army was out of my territory for a while). Also, figured could use the gold to finish construction in a reasonable time frame and come back in 10 turns. 

Anyways Justinian spread buddism and built AP so switched into that and used the peace gold to tech to priesthood after construction (and yes that is how slow the tech rate was). Ended up not coming back in 10 turns as decided to go for two NW barb cities. Only got one of them, but still worthwhile.

Screenshot as of tonight that isn't showing NW barb city and new settled city that direction. I don't have floating camera setup yet on my linux side so it isn't pretty. 



But ya we limped to mono for org and monarchy and I immediately popped my GA (2nd great person first one was used on an academy; 2 of my cities are producing great people due to not having actual tiles to work and too much food, but its heavy scientist with now a priest thrown in so shall see how the 2 man GA comes, might do a 2nd academy).

Alex kept demanding health resources first from Bx and then from me. We were building the religious buildings so I was fine with a 10 turn delay. But it had another benefit. Alex being Alex he needed someone to go to war with. So he marched all across my empire to attack Gandhi (and Monte, but we all know he really wanted Gandhi). I'm pretty sure his stack wasn't even to Gandhi yet as we had just seen it go into Justinian's territory (whom we thought he was attacking, but he must just have had units near Gandhi). Are we going to give it 10 turns or so to let Alex's armies suicide / leave his territory and go attack them? Yes. Some debate about attacking Monte with them, but Alex and Louis are just clearly the weak team and easier to attack. Plus Hamburg is being annoying culturally against his old capital. Mainly going to be me, but Bx will probably go take one city.