[spoilers] The Return of Summer

[xist10]

And a 3 turns later, my treants disappered.
And Auro seems to start his final attack.
Somehow I still have visibility on a few tiles of Lanun culture - I think the same bug I reported ~20 turns ago.

I do have my 8/9 longbows, but I don't think they have good chances against 18 Aurealis.
And I don't recruit as quickly as I could, because I'm still hoping to win by religion and as such, I preserve my .

And I have 3 small troops from coldrain and Bing in my culture, but they also aren't that much of a problem for Auro.

I also think we need to discuss my Worldspell a bit, to be honest, the only reason I used it was that I made the mistake with Wispolen.
Otherwise I still would have the army and the loss of the forests (and the advantage) hurts too much.
The treants are to slow right now to be from much usefulness against humans and you are a lot weaker after you used the spell.
That is more or less the only WB that has a direct, potential crippling disadvantage ?




I should be able to convert the remaining 5 free cities in 2 turns.
Mr.Cairo has 2 unconverted Settlements, but as they remain at 1 , I think I can ignore them.

And I don't think that this is enough - take a look at the population number.
Auro has only one fellowship city - Idul - and 30% of the population right now.

If I get lucky and Auro has a few spreads in the correct cities, I think I could snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, but I don't think so.
Auro still has 3 cities with over 10 and further ~30 in ~7 cities without religion.

If I could get really lucky, I still can win this.

This also requires that I hold Hyll at least for 2 turns to spread my religion to the remaining ~90 from Bing, possible a third turn when I get the victory screen only on the turn change between coldrain and Mr.Cairo - and then even more turns if I need to hope for a spread in a few Lanun Cities.


I should be able to hold for one turn - I think Auro can't reach Hyll this turn, but 2 turns become critical if Auro marches direct on Hyll, 3 turns are more or less impossible.

[shallow_thought]

FWIW, I believe consensus is that the March of the Trees is best as an early game offensive spell (plant a city in forest near a border and attack). Even then it's risky. Not a plus (and even worse in SP IMO).

[xist10]

That makes it a bit difficult to properly balance the spell.

But I think my point remains, March of the Trees is - I think - the only Worldspell with a direct disadvantage, which only get more apparent when you follow the clear synergy with Fellowship of the Leaves.

We can start talking about Svertalfar/Sidar world spell too, but as long as you can reveal the Sidar units (Is that only an Ashes of Erebus option ?), Invisibility has no disadvantage.

[xist10]

And a bit late my last post.




Uh, yes.
I must have miscounted again.
Five cities fell this turn, including two against troops that had landed in the south.

No relevant victories for me, for whatever reason. I was pretty sure I already had at least one Longbow in Hyll? I only defeated one fireball and a second T2 summon.
I don't feel like looking at all the battles in detail.




At least I managed to score a few victories.
This troop probably defeated Coldrain's invasion force?
Unfortunately, I couldn't collect the artifact.




And with that, all my chances of victory are gone.

And directly afterwards this post from Auro.

Ljosalfar has been destroyed.

Good game, xist!

That went a little faster than expected.

So I'm posting the conclusion post directly afterwards.

First, here are the graphs from my last turn of the entire game.





Auro pulled ahead relatively quickly.
Bing took advantage of the fact that he was able to play relatively undisturbed for a long time—and didn't even have to invest in troops , as the troops came automatically.




Here's my big problem. My economy was never really good.
Auro benefits enormously from the fact that the water tiles with 2 buildings (60 + 80 ) 3 , 3 fields.
The Lanun's UI is even stronger – Auro also has the GLH.




has actually been my strength throughout the game.
Only Auro had an empire twice as large, was once again in and definitely has the option to switch to workshops/mines, which I don't have.




Food is actually similarly good.
Auro is better, of course, but see the number of cities and the 3 coastal fields, 5 pirate ports, and 6-7 water resources.




In the end, however, I always find myself lacking a little .
I think this is partly because my pure firepower is somewhat underrated, but in the end I simply wasn't recruiting decisively enough – I've built almost 10 settlers since the start of the war ?



Looking back, there was definitely more potential here.
It all starts with the fact that I delayed education and the option to build cottages for too long.
Neither animal husbandry nor my religion were that important.
Okay, the shrine definitely helped, but I think I would have gotten the Holy City when I researched Education first ?
Secondly, I probably delayed priesthood for too long. Hidden Path in particular was of very dubious use in the end. Priesthood + bronze working would also have solved my problem at that point, and faster access to the forests would have further strengthened my economy. I'm also not sure if their even is a game where the Satyrs are able to take the field - much bigger map and as such more barbs ?

Well, Auro with his chariots is always a threat, but with growing forests in front of Bruti and more swordsmen thanks to earlier bronze working, I might have been able to defeat Auro's first advance right in front of Bruti. If I get lucky with the forests, I should have stopped a direct first strike on Bruti. - But even then, 5 movement at that time is still enough to get a first strike through 2 rows of foresttiles.

Otherwise, there were just the two serious mistakes in moving units before Idul with the unplundered road on Syrthes Stand and with Wispolen.



In the end, however, Auro played a good game, and he had the necessary luck to get a favourable map.
I don't think the Lanun would have been as strong on a map like the one in the last game, especially with my starting position.

If you have any questions about the game, or FFH2 in general, I'll be happy to answer them.

Otherwise, this will be my last post for now.
After the game, there may well be discussions about my proposed changes. You can see them in my first post of this thread.

[Qgqqqqq]

Great game xist

I agree, I think this map was too watery for FFH2. Not knocking Ref, its been a while since we've seen one that allows water to really break containment. I also think some of the buffs done in EitB (Faitoria boost on harbours in particular) may be too much and deserve unwinding. It's also worth remembering that the centaur rush was both (imo) a poor decision and relieved pressure on a Auro flank. You did a reasonable job organising a counterpush - despite your (justified) scheming and (imo) Bing underrating the runaway.

Agree you delayed Education too long - its arguably the most important tech. I have (admittedly SP) games where I lack mining for ages, let alone AH. Satyrs either require a lot of work to mass produce, or are reserved for elite troops - neither should be Ljolsofar priority.

I disagree that March is too weak. Yeah, it has a huge disadvantage - but it also does far more than a lot of others do, and the civ is balanced in other ways. It's also a very thematic spell. You could of course speed up tbe new forest regrowth time without much impact, but thats a minor thing.

[DaveV]

I'm also not sure if their even is a game where the Satyrs are able to take the field - much bigger map and as such more barbs ?

Satyrs are indeed hard to get without a lot of barb luck or fighting a war. I've always thought it would be cool to put one on a boat and capture some Giant Tortoises and Sea Serpents, but that's probably one of the many cool but impractical things in FfH.

[Qgqqqqq]

Is there even a reward for doing so? One of the areas other modmods improve in this regard.

[Thoth]

You get a pet sea monster.


There is at least one mod mod that allows ships to take Subdue Animal and capture sea life. I don't recall which one unfortunately.

[xist10]

I know Ashes of Erebus allows Subdue Animal/Beast for ships.

And towards March of the Trees:
I see about 3-4 problems here.
1. Like your wrote, the spell can be deadly relative quickly - If the terrains allows it. That makes buffing the treants directly quite difficult to justify.
But still, I think 2 movement and -95% City attack could be something to discuss ?
And to be fair, the Amurite Arcana Lacuna is even deadlier. The Illian Stasis can also be quite dangerous ?
2. March of the Forest is the only Worldspell with a direct disadvantage.
3. The advantage of the spell doesn't really increase with Empire size after a certain point - about half of my treants couldn't reach the front because they spawned more then 10 tiles from the front. This isn't exclusive for the Ljosalfar, Clan of Embers and Hyborem have similar problems, but still...

And implied with 2, but something I really think I have to highlight:
My empires defence became a lot weaker after the treants disappear.
I lost quite a bit of protection from the change (Ancient) Forest -> New Forest. The attack range from Auro more or less doubled with that.


If you ask me right now, I think I would remove the downgrade on the forests from the spell.
I still think the spells is more or less a cheap copy of Santuary as long as you don't rush someone with that, but with that change, you can use without remorse.

[Qgqqqqq]

I'm a bit confused why you think that world spells need to be balanced against one another? A worldspells role is unique to that civ, and needs to be seen in the context of that civ. It's arguably weaker than Sanctuary (though Sanctuary is harder to kill with), but it fills a thematic niche, is something other players have to play around (e.g. a centaur rush on Ljolsofar likely doesn't even happen precisely because the risk of the button, and is crushed if it does), and generally performs a useful and balanced function.

You can buff it at the edges, sure, and perhaps two moves and minus 20-50% city attack isn't the worst idea (remind me, is there a summon treeant spell), but I'd argue there's nothing wrong with it's fundamental design in the context of an overall strong but not overpowered civ. Note for the record that Rally (turn towns into villages), Raging Seas (destroy own improvements) and Mother Lode (hillify farms) can all hurt you as well. In terms of strength, Stasis, Religious Fervor, Gifts of Nantosuelta, Revelry and Arcane Lacuna are all a lot stronger while Wild Hunt stands out as the weakest by far, and Into the Mist and Veil of Night are very weak/situational.