EitB 13 planning thread

[RefSteel]

Hmmm, if it's not difficult, could I make a couple requests about the Custom Wonders? If I were coding them into the game, I'd make Syraethe's Stand a Legendary Lair (like the Pyre and the Broken Sephulcre) - though as I recall, once those are explored, the mana has to be (and can be) "noded" again to be used, and can be dispelled and turned into a different node. And I'd give Maurits Basin something small; say +2 commerce on the improvement so the river-ringed floodplain snow tile can be worked for 3/0/3. I think those are the only mana ones I created, right?

On the balance stuff, since I don't play, I shouldn't get a vote, but just to voice my thoughts: Removing easy access to +move promotions (including the Haste spell) seems important. I proposed giving Haste a 1-turn casting cost (instead of instant) for this reason before this game, and Mobility 1&2 do carry the problem as well when they're easy to reach. As for the Lanun, I think the main problem is that their strength varies so wildly depending on the number and shapes of the bodies of water on the map. Off the top of my head though, I don't know what to do about that. (Well, other than "hope mapmaker(s) and those who advise them either figure out how to make it balanced or advise banning Lanun for a given game....")

I think the coolest thing to do with March of the Trees would be for Treants to "plant" a Forest or Ancient Forest (I don't remember if Treants from AFs are different so the game can track them differently and do both accordingly) on the tiles they occupy when they expire or are disbanded. This might offer interesting choices and make the spell more interesting, and also enable more movement within the elven player's borders via their innate W2 and strategically-placed ex-treant forests, all while still having the impact of all your forests pulling up their roots and marching ... but I don't know how easy it would be to code.

[xist10]

I think i can stop the destruction if the Improvment - or change it to a non explorable version ?

That is no problem and I think I would implement this for the mana wonders.


Towards Lanun is the problem, like you wrote, their strenght is quite map depend. And as such, I think banning them outright removes the pressure from the map maker to decide of this map has too much water or not. - This reminds me, does the Coven spell needs salt water or only coast ?

Too much water is always a small problem when we have OO and casting mages on ships, but right now, only Lanun made an impact using naval supremency, or ?


Towards Forest from dead Treants: There is a onUnitKilled, but I'm not sure if this also applies when you disband a unit.
I should be able to track if a treant gets created by a AF (I think, the easiest way is give them a more or less useless promotion). - First Idea, I give them 50% strenght (aka Empower 1-5). But this would allow HPoL to "plant" Ancient Forests.
This is an interesting idea. This allows a few strategic options in enemy culture and lessens the eco impact a bit, because you can decide how many forest you want to sacrify for (short term) power.

If unit disbanding triggers onUnitKilled, I would implement this.

[Mr. Cairo]

Regarding changes to Mobility and Haste spell, the Centaur special ability would need to be either excluded or changed. The Centaur special ability adds the same "promotion" that the Haste spell does, so if you change how the Haste Spell works you need to make sure it doesn't nerf the Kuriotes.

That all being said I don't think any changes to the Haste spell are needed (except maybe where it concerns boats and unloading from boats). I don't think that Auro's victory was because his units were so much faster than everyone else. We all had access to the same spell and (theoretically) the same promotions. He just used them better, had a much stronger economy, and a much more focused gameplan. Where I think he did end up getting a massive advantage over us was in his easy access to the Mobility promotions, thanks to the xp from Form of the Titan and Ride of the Nine Kings (which should probably be nerfed imo). Which is why my preferred "solution" is to add additional pre-reqs to the Mobility 1 and 2 promotions. Just make it more of a challenge to get those promos.

If possible, changing it so that taking the promo doesn't add a movement point would be good as well. It should be possible, since the Centaur special ability doesn't add a movement point if the unit is completely out of MPs.

[Qgqqqqq]

There is a lot here which I will need to return to when I have a moment.

A few points that might be useful to discuss:
* I believe it would be useful to discuss what problems we each consider are in the game before diving into solutions. We all seem to have different visions of where issues arise, which will create confusion if we don't first discuss the problems we're looking to solve.
* To my mind, the overall level of speed in FFH2 (and particularly speed on ships) is the high level problem. I believe this is something which makes conquest and end game too quick, reduces comeback possibilities and accelerates snowballs (and the impact of snowball advantages) in a way that is not fun to play in multiplayer - that creates stress and lengthens turn times due to the size of impact. I therefore suggest solutions should be targeted at this problem by an across the board rebalancing intended to slow down units in the game.
* But its been a while since I played and those are just my views! Others may differ. Xist seems to think it is the relative speed, Cairo that its the accessibility of speed, and both with some nuanced proposed reforms. Let's work that point out before we discuss specifics.

Finally, I suggest that this needs to be seen as a fresh version and released as such. There's too many accrued changes at this point and it creates confusion.

A final solution to throw in there - other modmods make ocean cost more than one movement. This could be considered.

[xist10]

Yes, I do plan to release this as EitBv13

Anyway, I saw 4-6 problems in the last game.
0. Quite a few missing/wrong tooltips/pedia entrys
1. Lanun Eco (on water maps)
2. No good counter against chariot (mages) first strike outside own first strike
3. Units too fast to allow any hope of rebuilding an army - Auro needed 2 turns to conquer my 13 city empire
4. Too much speed difference through promotions since start (quite restricted in FFH) and restricted unit access
5. Mages on ships
6. Units unloading from ships and moving 2-3 tiles inland

Ship speeds itself seems fine ? If we reduce land speed, you should think about reducing ship speed too and I also think we should match ship speed with visibility from hawks/floating eyes (which could be reason to nerf it a bit already).

[DaveV]

In defense of the Lanun: each pirate cove costs a 30 hammer workboat, a significant investment in the early game. You can't just spam them out like cottages.

Since these proposals usually seem like fighting the last war, is it worth examining the retreat percentage for catapults? Redlined catapults proved much more effective than I expected at causing collateral damage, and they can just keep doing it turn after turn. I don't even know what the retreat percentage in BtS, but I think it's 20%. I know cats are much more a single-use tool in that game.

[xist10]

I will note that at least my proposal wasn't a nerf towards the pirate coven.

Towards catapults: I agree. Who thought that an 80% retreat chance is a good idea ?
You can expect at least 4 offensive fights till the catapult dies ?
BtS has 0% for catapults.
(The fact, that redlined catapults cause the same amount of collateral damage as undamaged catapults is the same behaviour as in BtS)

[Thoth]

The base mechanics of coves ect aren't the problem with the Lanun. It's the combination of their bonuses with the extra yields from water tiles that EiTB introduced.

Roll back the changes to harbours (get rid of the +1 commerce per tile) and dockyards (get rid of the +1 hammer per tile) and the Lanun scale back a lot.

[Qgqqqqq]

Generally agree re harbours and shipyards over changes core to the civ. Or else a small c hit.

Catapults are competing against fireballs and other magic - which while they are earlier and directly accessible, they are much slower than, and have a direct cost associated.

[Aurorarcher]

To me the main problem is the massive advantage of the first strike in general. Compared to base civ4 where you can't use collateral from the fog (in most cases, cats are slow etc.) here the defender gets hit by so many spells that it makes it hard if not even impossible to attack back after the first strike. Maelstrom, Fireballs, other summons and even Blinding Light all can be used from a very far distance especially with high mobility. And after that the mounted units jump in.

Some ideas:
1a. Make it take 2 turns to cast some of these spells but it could be exploited as well (using the spell 1 turn before going in).
1b. Or this idea I like maybe more: If one uses a spell then the unit cannot move during that turn anymore. This could apply to certain spells or all of them. I think I would put Haste and all tier II and III spells to this category at least. With this one would need to risk moving his Mages close enough to cast spells but can't run back to safety on the same turn. Which could offer a chance to attack back. This doesn't of course prevent first strike at all if it's successful but would make losing Mages a lot more likely.
1c. Make some sort of combination of 1a and 1b.

In the game I mutated a lot of my units and some of my units got an annoying Heavy promotion (+30% strength but +1 terrain movement cost). Those Chariots were almost useless with first stike but on the roads they were like normal. What if mobility promotions came with a penalty like that on a terrain with no roads? It could be +0.5 terrain movement cost of even +1 but it could be too much. This could be applied only to mounted units since they are the most mobile, not sure how though. Then you would need to decide if you want to be fast on roads or faster on enemy territory. This would be a buff to commando promotions and especially Raiders.

Remember that the last game is not maybe the ideal game to compare because in that game I had a huge economical advantage and that was the biggest reason I won the game to. And that was thanks to Lanun (which should be banned probably I'm afraid from PBEMs). I was able to get Bone Palace, Form of Titan, free Great Commander, free Great Artist, etc., all these were due to my big GNP lead. I was also able to tech Engineering + Stirrups for more mobility before anyone else. It was also thanks to these that I was able to get 8 xp Privateers out of the gate. In general I don't think ship speeds are that much of a problem but it was more of a Lanun problem.