PBEM3 Spoilers - timmy827 of Khmer

[Gold Ergo Sum]

I think the only reachable cat stack has 6-7 rifles on it, unless I missed something.

The maceman had the 25% fortification bonus (not sure about the pikes), but you are right, I probably should've attacked it anyway to get rid of the cats. I figured with my Medic-3 knight rolling in soon, it wouldn't matter. But that is suboptimal.

I didn't really care if he attacks the X-bows. Probably should've put a rifle there though.

Good point on roads. Obviously from my earlier posts in this thread, movement concepts is not something I've spent a ton of time with.

I am already regretting not raizing the city. Yeah, I will probably be able to draft 3-5 rifles there, but I am going to have to deal with annoying levels of "homeland" unhappiness etc. And I spent a GArtist on there. Oh well. Live and learn.

[Shoot the Moon]

If decides to kill your crossbows, you can easily wipe up anything he attacks with next turn, and xbows for knights is a good trade for us, so that's not a huge deal.

I agree that you probably should have razed the city (hate to say it, but I told you so ). As a small note, when you used the GA bomb, did you remember to turn the culture slider up to 100% temporarily and micro the city to have as much cultural output as possible for when you hit the bomb? The mechanics with the culture bomb are quite weird, and essentially any culture you are producing gets applied to all the tiles around you 20 times in the process of a bomb, so microing your city can actually have a pretty big effect.

Diplo probably looks good. I doubt Sandover thinks the way he is wording the peace agreement means only for 10 turns, but I also don't see us exactly being on friendly terms with him for much of the game, so I don't think even if he gets mad at that that it matters in the long run.

Also a small note: you probably should have put 4 workers underneath your stack 2NE of VM. Next turn if you capture the city with your knights, you would want to be able to road both the hill tile itself and the tile SW of it so that you could move some of your rifles into the city. In general, it is good to keep workers with your stacks to provide for combat roading like that.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

Oh, it is definitely a lawyer's parsing of language on the Sandover thing. But as far as I am concerned, any concessions that are made as part of a peace treaty should only run the length that he is bound by peace, unless otherwise specifically specified. But again, I am a lawyer.

That was kind of my thoughts on the X-bows.

You were absolutely right on raizing the city.

I did not do any cultural slider micro. I honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

I emailed you the save to have a look. I am still at work.

[T-hawk]

As a small note, when you used the GA bomb, did you remember to turn the culture slider up to 100% temporarily and micro the city to have as much cultural output as possible for when you hit the bomb?

I can't find a specific reference, but I remember that this mechanic was patched out once it was discovered. IIRC, a Great Work now does not apply the city's base culture at all to the tiles. It does apply 20 turns worth of tile ownership culture (the 20 per ring inward from outermost).

A code dive backs that up, through this sequence of function calls:
CvUnit::greatWork()
CvCity::changeCultureTimes100(getOwnerINLINE(), iCultureToAdd / iNumTurnsApplied, true, true)
CvCity::setCultureTimes100(eIndex, (getCultureTimes100(eIndex) + iChange), bPlots, bUpdatePlotGroups)
CvCity::doPlotCulture(true, eIndex, 0)

The last parameter to doPlotCulture is the amount of culture to apply to each plot. It is 0 here. So doPlotCulture only applies the the base tile ownership culture (CITY_FREE_CULTURE_GROWTH_FACTOR from GlobalDefines.xml which is that default 20.)

[Gold Ergo Sum]

Long story short: no need for micro anymore?

[Shoot the Moon]

Long story short: no need for micro anymore?

Yeah, looks like it got patched out and I didn't know about it/it might not have been in patch notes. Good to know.

Anyway, GES sent me the save to look at this turn. Rome did not attack last turn. He also didn't move his units into his cities, so I'm not exactly sure what is going on.

A couple small things:

Move up some of the workers around Prague. We have 8 or so around, so having four each under each main stack for combat worker jobs would be smart.

Both whip and draft overwatch nexus this turn. We have pop that is going to starve there, so we might as well convert it to hammers while can.

Before doing anything, I would promote 1 Knight in each stack flanking I --> sentry. Vision is key in MP, and having at least one unit in every stack with sentry is a must. I think the general plan for this turn would be to attack Victory Mines an move to the tile E-NE of Ravenholm. However, before doing any of that, I would recommend moving a sentry knight 2E of ravenholm and another sentry knight 1NE of Victory Mines to see what is there.

Actually wait, hold up. All the knights in Overwatch already have combat 1. First off, it is generally not smart in MP to promote units until necessary, as for example now we can't promote one to sentry. To makeup for that we'll have to move a knight out of Prague and promote it to sentry. It only has movement this turn to move to 1NW of Overwatch, but I would recommend moving it there BEFORE doing anything else. Always smart to have vision before charging in somewhere if you can, and the fact that we don't know where his units from last turn went suggest they are hiding somewhere in the fog.

A small note: you might want to micro Erioca and Rhenish so that Erioca gets it's GP first. Erioca is at 10 turn and Rhenish at 6, but Rhenish makes almost three times the GP/turn, so I would actually try to get Erioca's out first and then Rhenish's quickly after that for a three person GA. Also try to make sure we don't get a GP we already have obviously.

Techwise, I think Chemistry next as it opens up a lot including Steel. A possible tech path would be chem to steel to Steam Power to Railroads. Railroads would really let us protect SM, as movement is helpful getting units there and Machine Guns are absolutely ridiculously good defenders.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

Thanks for the advice. If you would like to play a turn, feel free. As far as I am concerned, we joined this as a partnership of sorts. I will send you the next save either way.

Anyway, here is what I did.

I raized VM with the loss of two knights.



I didn't use a sentry knight, since it would only give me the same sight as just moving a knight from Overwatch to the hill (I think), so I did that. Here is the stack after drafting again and whipping a rifle in Overwatch:



The city that I can see has a garrison of one pike. Not much there so far.

I used a couple spare knights to pillage some roads so that hopefully he cannot bring that 14 cat stack at Overwatch. I don't see any workers around, so hopefully those cats are useless for now.

Garrison in Overwatch:



I started sending some backline troops up towards SM. I sent 2 cavalry and 5-6 knights. For now, that is all I have free.

Two more universities in, so we now have three. Last 3 up in 4 turns, and then I will start on Oxford.

Building cavs and rifles throughout the empire.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

Some diplo from earlier in the day.

A little smack talk from Amelia. So far, I have little evidence he can back it up, but who knows what is out there in the fog (or that Sandover will gift him):

GES,

Well, so be it. I will have Great pleasure in dominating your Khmer garrison.

It pains me to say that i have been building up for war as well, so you are in a huge amount of trouble.

Amelia.

This exchange with scooter:

GES,

Apologies for the delay - huge end-of-semester project that I had to work on all night. Fun times...

I will definitely not share with anyone your plans. I understand the difficulty of improving your civs position and balancing that with the game not ending due to an open door for Sandover.

My one thought is if that is what Sandover is asking, then absolutely yes SM will get attacked very very soon. My question is how much would you be able to gift to SM? We got Sandover to back off only when Timmy brought over ~50-60 Knights, and the number SM would need might not be that far off from that. I don't know how much you're committing to Amelia and how much you've kept in the east, so that's why I ask.

One suggestion would be to try to get Amelia to hand over cities. I'm guessing taking the first city will be quite easy, as Amelia is fairly backwards without much military. I wonder if you could talk her into handing over a few cities for free in exchange for her survival, which would get you out of war quicker as well as the obvious benefit of getting mature cities fully intact. That was my only idea - as if I were Amelia I'd be willing to do that to stay alive, knowing that you could easily wipe her out if you chose to do that. Other than that... Not sure what else to say other than good luck!

Any questions for me?

scooter

I responded:

scooter,

I should know more after this turn when I see what Amelia can dreg up from the depths of her Civ.

I would be willing to take peace for about 3 cities I suppose, and then I would divert my troops to the other border.

GES

scooter responded:

GES,

Well hope it goes well... Hope to be hearing how it goes. I kinda would enjoy seeing Amelia kicked around a little bit, since there's still a tad bit of bitterness after her selling out on us

scooter

I just sent:

scooter,

So far I took a size 14 Roman city on turn one of the war and GArtist bombed it.

I also raized a size 12 Roman city on turn two of the war.

Right now my sentries have barely seen enough Roman troops to break a sweat. Unless Rome has something in the fog (or a Sandover surprise planned), then I should be OK to raize a few more cities and start backfilling with settlers.

I am beginning to bring what units I can spare to SM. Right now, I have 2 cavs and 6 knights en route. I am building cavs quickly and hopefully can get more up there in time. ETA varies between 2-7 turns to Samba. If I can reach some sort of peace, I will send more. I am reluctant to clear out my lands too much in case Sandover diverts an attack to the west. But I hope I can spare 20-30 2-movers before too long.

GES

I received this from SM:

Other than signing peace and returning your forces to Samba Station asap? Not really, no. The AP-enforced peace expired last turn, and your declaration and commitment of forces on your western border is an clear invitation for Sandover to come knocking on my door and finally put this game out of its misery.

-SleepingMoogle

[Shoot the Moon]

GES,

For now, I'll let you keep all the playing duties. I think I mentioned this before, but next week is finals week for me, so this weekend and all of next week is some of the busiest I will be all year. Once finals week is done the chances of me playing a turn would greatly improve. We would have to coordinate though to make sure we don't both play the save, as that could lead to some nasty spoiler situations where one of us sees something by moving troops differently than what actually gets played.

In regards to protecting SM: I would propose that we offer to send all troops we produce via production to SM and also rifles drafted in the east of our empire. I think with just a few knight to cavalry upgrades in the west, we probably don't need to keep streaming in more troops except some rifles drafted in the western cities.

Where exactly did you move our knights near overwatch this turn? For the most part, I think we want to try to hit that stack first and not let it hit our knights. As I remember, we had 20-30 knights in overwatch, and that stack of theirs could kill almost all of them unless we have rifles on top (and even then with that much collateral it still won't be pretty for us). On the flip side, if we can be the one attacking that stack, even only with our two movers, it should produce much better results.

I'm still going to recommend that we have at least one sentry unit in every stack. The knight to hill move does indeed work for this turn, but going forward we can't keep sending knights to hills to die in order to give us vision.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

Yeah, I upgraded a knight to sentry. He is in Overwatch right now.

I received this message from Sandover:

GES,

Bad things happen in war, and ours is still ongoing. The ruins of Loon Lake shall serve you as a reminder of your failure to appreciate my generousity.

Pharaoh Sandover of Egypt

I sent this back:

Sandover,

You seem to think I care enough about this game not to turn my entire army your way just to see little Civ people die.

GES

Good move from Sandover. But I doubt he realizes how vindictive I am. Since Khmer can no longer win this game, I will turn my attentions to doing as much damage as I can to Sandover. From my perspective, he cannot keep my land even if he did try to conquer it, so it really doesn't do him any good. scooter is more likely to get my land than Sandover.

I am considering sending this offer to Amelia:

Shorepoint and Lighthouse for peace. I will back up and let you rebuild VM.

I finished researching cavalry last turn. Do you want them moving through your lands after a mass upgrade after a trade mission?

I have yet to see the save. I think Loon Lake was the Heroic Epic city. I was stupid for mostly emptying out those cities before reaching some agreement with Sandover.

I had this diplo exchange with scooter:

me: You there?

scooter: kind of... doing a few things so i may be a bit slow responding
whats up?

me: Sandover decided to come across the water and raize one my better cities just because he could. As far as I am concerned, I am willing to do whatever is necessary to ensure that he does not win. My entire army is at the disposal of you and SM.

scooter: ouch... sounds like you got a glimpse of some of the circus acts he's been pulling all game long

me: He sent me some curt message, so I essentially responded thusly, "You seem to think I care enough about this game not turn my entire army your way just to see little Civ people die.

scooter: well i expect him to try to through the gap between him and SM any turn now...
*to go through
this turn i will upgrade as many of my rifles to infantry as possible (should be able to upgrade just about all of them if not all of them)
and hopefully get to the gap... we've got a pretty good amoutn of stuff there, but sandover has an army that we can't even really put a fair estimate on
Sent at 1:12 PM on Saturday

me: I will begin removing troops in Rome to solidify my borders. I will also start running pure cash soon so that I can mass upgrade knights to cavs. My civ is done as a player in this game. I made my move, and if Sandover hadn't gotten involved, it would've worked. Now my only goal is to ensure that Sandover fails.
Sent at 1:14 PM on Saturday

me: I've got no hard feelings, he made a good move for himself. He isn't dumb. He has to know I wasn't planning on working with him long term. But I can do what I can to help you guys. I had to make a play though.

scooter: now maybe you see why he hasnt made any friends this game haha... when you told me he did that, it didnt even surprise me
right
Sent at 1:15 PM on Saturday

scooter: honestly, i was sort of queasy about you attacking rome as i felt we might not have enough to defend against sandover... but i also felt it wasnt my place to tell you to use the bulk of what you have to defend SM either. so it was just a tricky situation
what are you going to do on your rome border?

me: It is my own fault. I knew he had control of the inner seas and I left those cities largely undefended because I didn't figure that he would want to turn the next strongest army in the world against him directly. So it was my own fault. I could've stopped it from happening by playing more carefully.

scooter: it happens... whats noteworthy to me is that he had galleons + units on the ocean... what did he raze it with? cuirassers?

me: I raized one city and stole another. I may just pillage everything and retreat.
I haven't seen what he used yet.

scooter: got it... we were slightly concerned sandover would try something like that on SM's lake city, so this confirms that he at lesat had the option on the table
any idea how he knew your city was undefended?
or lightly defended
Sent at 1:18 PM on Saturday

me: Not real sure. The borders are pretty close. He may have just made the assumption. I checked the border up there last turn before moving some units out of that city towards SM's land and saw nothing.

scooter: okay yeah. i just figured its odd that he went at yours instead of SM's
not sure what it means though, if anything
in all likelihood he just wanted you to attack me, and if you werent going to do that then he'd do his typical opportunistic attack if it opened up
be back in a few

me: ok
Sent at 1:21 PM on Saturday

scooter: i'm back
have you contacted amelia at all about peace?
might be able to get an extra couple cities out of the deal
Sent at 1:29 PM on Saturday

me: I have a feeling that Amelia is being propped up by Sandover, but I am not sure. I am tempted to offer peace with Amelia for a border city with Sandover so that I can move my army up towards Sandover and see if I can pillage my way through his lands.
Sent at 1:32 PM on Saturday

scooter: that might be interesting... his siege is most likely to be up by SM

me: I could probably have 50 Cavs up on the border in a few turns.

scooter: so he might not be able to do much right away

me: Have you sent me today's save yet?

scooter: nope, havent gotten it from amelia yet
before you joined we were often doing a turn ever other day... amelia went to bed earlier than bob did (not sure what her time zone is) so she often didnt get it played on time
so its possible that that's happening today
not sure though

me: I am not too worried about Sandover raizing my cities. He cannot hold that region I don't think. As far as I am concerned, if he raizes those eastern push cities, I may just let you replant them instead of me.
Sent at 1:35 PM on Saturday

me: People say diplomacy matters in these games. I am not super invested in this game, but you were the only person to contact me when I took over, which juts seems common courtesy, and the only person to engage in any meaningful discussions. I may have been playing for 5-6 turns, but I would already prefer to see you win than Sandover.
Sent at 1:36 PM on Saturday

scooter: that's how Bob and SM felt... Sandover jerked both of them around throughout the game, which didnt set well with them...
Sent at 1:37 PM on Saturday

me: I mean, I was plotting against Sandover covertly. I could've had peace with him and safely taken over much of Rome, but I wasn't willing to leave you in a lurch, just because you were willing to establish some sort of a relationship.
Sent at 1:40 PM on Saturday

scooter: part of why i put such an emphasis on it was because i didnt do that with amelia, and i came to regret it... i made no real effort to catch her up or chat with her, so i shouldnt have been surprised when she sided with sandover in the end... made up my mind i wouldnt be lazy this time around
Sent at 1:41 PM on Saturday

me: So I figure I will continue to bluster at Sandover and my only goal now is to ensure he doesn't win. You still have a clear tech lead right?

scooter: yeah i'm several techs ahead of him
i should go tally it up
and my GNP is higher
so it should be maintainable
Sent at 1:43 PM on Saturday

me: Alright, well, I will need to see what the situation is when I get back in game. If you have sentries in that region, head NW and check out the remains of Loon Lake.

scooter: okay sounds good

me: I am thinking about sending this to Amelia
Thoughts?
Shorepoint and Lighthouse for peace. I will back up and let you rebuild VM.

I have bigger fish to fry now, but I will continue to push into your lands if you are unwilling to reach peace.

I finished researching cavalry last turn. Do you want them moving through your lands or someone else's lands?
Sent at 2:01 PM on Saturday

scooter: Sorry i disappeared - i went to dinner... that sounds like it would work well
Sent at 3:04 PM on Saturday

me: OK, I will send that. I attacked in a less effective manner I think because I wanted to try to avoid a border with Sandover and stay on his good side. Now I want one to put pressure on Sandover by having a border. Pretty funny.

scooter: haha go figure
plans change quickly in these games
Sent at 3:08 PM on Saturday

me: Indeed. If my western army is still alive (and I didn't see any reason to think it wouldn't be last time around, I will do my best to point it northbound.

I have no plans to roll up into ball just because Sandover attacked. I am not exactly sure how I plan to play this from here. Ideally, I would love to gain a border with Sandover so that I could hit his backline if he ever decides to come at SM. And if he ever looks like a real tech threat to scooter, I may start gifting cash to keep him ahead. I will do my best, even if I don't win, to ensure that Sandover chose unwisely. He may be unbeatable, but we'll find out. Hats off to him for a well-played, ruthless game so far.

I tried my hand at improving my own Civ, and if I had just agreed to peace with Sandover, I think I could've taken a decent chunk out of Rome. But I am now in the anti-Sandover coalition fully. And if anyone says that I came into this game too disposed to dislodging Sandover, just check my initial reaction to scooter's diplomacy email. But continued friendly contact between our Civs has changed that.