Advanced Apologiy and forewarning

[Drasca]

I apologize in advance if some guy whispers you and asks for in-game cash, and you notice it was a former recent invitee to the guild. Once in a while, I go against better judgement, (as SF pointed out, I should be talking to the guy and playing with them) and toss a random invite out to someone who asks and without much question. It sometimes works, it usually doesn't, but this one didn't and he's of the annoying panhandling kind. Feel free to set him on ignore.


Sorry again. I just can't help being overly optimistic, or overly sadistic, a times. I'd like to believe some people can work out if given a chance... I just got lazy gave a shortcut chance without requiring interview.

[WarBlade]

Ahh, so this is the point where I pick up Soul Flayer's argument questioning our guild's tendancy to invite and promote to officer within the day!


I'm not saying that has happened here, but this business of doing the inclusive tactic of turning practically the whole guild into instant officers has one glaring problem that Drasca may have just shown us. The problem where one of us inadvertantly picks up a complete and utter prat, who not only proves themselves as such to us in short order but also has the opportunity to start posting crap on the alliance channel. Then what? Are there people in the alliance with Cyrene's philosphical outlook that actions of one guild member reflects on the majority and tars us all with the same brush?

Oh BTW. THREAD HIJACK!!!

Yeah, I'm one of those naysayers on the practice of fast track access to officer status. I understand that the game design is for three tier pyramid hierchy. I also understand RB is about community and bugger the system - We can bloody well be a bunch of commies if we want to be! But let's be honest here. Isn't the better model for us one of coaching the newcommer as to what our our ideals are (at least to the extent where they can humour us politely when we run around nekkid or whatever) and then if they still like the guild and we like them worry about promotion?

Some people claim that this guild is about community. I don't see much community in evidence when someone I've never heard of before appears in the officer list. The act of putting that person there is the action of an individual. Can we get serious and instill some kind of community decision in officer promotions?

Please???

[Hawkmoon]

I agree completely with WB.

The main benefit of being an officer in the guild is the ability to invite new members. It is just asking for trouble to give someone we don't even know that power - in the worst case scenario, we could end up with a whole raft of people that have no clue what RB's philosophy is! I'm not trying to sound elitist here, but if we want to distinguish our guild as a haven for like-minded folks who embrace challenge and honorable play and behavior, then we ought to make sure that all of our members do, in fact, subscribe to those ideals. I do agree with the contention that bad behavior by a guild member tarnishes all of us just by association.

The Guild Leader has the ability to demote people from officer status to member, and to bounce folks from the guild entirely. I strongly suggest, no, make that beg KoP to exercise that power! Some wholesale housecleaning of the guild roster needs to be done anyway - for instance, my Factions FPE account character, "Hawkmoon Obscura," is still on the roster as an officer - and that account doesn't even exist anymore. Please delete her at your earliest convenience, KoP, and also bounce this twit that Drasca is referring to (I'm pretty sure we all know who it is). I'd also suggest demoting any officer who hasn't been online within the last two weeks, or, if you are feeling generous, the last month. It does not give a good impression to new members to see such a load of inactive officers - it makes the guild look like it's dying badly by the side of the road.

For the future, we need to hammer out a policy of how we make decisions to promote to officer. I have no problem with folks inviting likely prospects, or just taking a chance on someone. But - we have got to stop this practice of automatic promotion to officer. I suggest that we only promote after the member in question has actually played with fellow RBers multiple times, and has proven themselves to actually have a clue what we stand for!

Please, guys - we need to take some action here!

[KingOfPain]

I agree completely with WB.

Ditto

The main benefit of being an officer in the guild is the ability to invite new members. It is just asking for trouble to give someone we don't even know that power - in the worst case scenario, we could end up with a whole raft of people that have no clue what RB's philosophy is! I'm not trying to sound elitist here, but if we want to distinguish our guild as a haven for like-minded folks who embrace challenge and honorable play and behavior, then we ought to make sure that all of our members do, in fact, subscribe to those ideals. I do agree with the contention that bad behavior by a guild member tarnishes all of us just by association.

Ditto

The Guild Leader has the ability to demote people from officer status to member, and to bounce folks from the guild entirely. I strongly suggest, no, make that beg KoP to exercise that power! Some wholesale housecleaning of the guild roster needs to be done anyway - for instance, my Factions FPE account character, "Hawkmoon Obscura," is still on the roster as an officer - and that account doesn't even exist anymore. Please delete her at your earliest convenience, KoP

I was sure I kicked your altered ego. When did you last check. Nvm, I will check again

and also bounce this twit that Drasca is referring to (I'm pretty sure we all know who it is).

Who is it, Drasca?

I'd also suggest demoting any officer who hasn't been online within the last two weeks, or, if you are feeling generous, the last month. It does not give a good impression to new members to see such a load of inactive officers - it makes the guild look like it's dying badly by the side of the road.

I have done that awhile ago, I stop at the one month away mark. That actually give them 2 months away before their away status change, then they are moved.

For the future, we need to hammer out a policy of how we make decisions to promote to officer. I have no problem with folks inviting likely prospects, or just taking a chance on someone. But - we have got to stop this practice of automatic promotion to officer. I suggest that we only promote after the member in question has actually played with fellow RBers multiple times, and has proven themselves to actually have a clue what we stand for!

Please, guys - we need to take some action here!

On promotions: I have said that multiple time in one form or another in in-game chat and this forum.

all that I ask a player is to be known to the RB. The MOTD says "We would like to meet you. Those who have not posted at the forum before, please drop by and say hello". If a person won't even do that, I am not sure s/he wants to be in our guild anyway.

This is the bare minimum.

Being shy is no excuse. Community > game.
If a person is too shy to drop by to at least leave a hello, and to interact with the community, I don't care if that person is the best GW player in the world. If a person is too shy to say anything in game, how is he going to join our games? Until that time, he is still "on trial" and remains "member".

On trimming the officer list further -
My secondary accounts were demoted to member status. What a pain that was when I logon with Thin Air I can see the alliance chat, but I can't respond. I think, secondary accounts should enjoy the same away grace period before demotion.

One way we can use to promote RB newbs to officer status is to have a recommendation system. A somewhat relaxed system fit for the RB - Anyone can, at anytime, recommend a member for promotion. For example: After few games with a member Drasca had invited and think that he belongs, I can post a thread of recommendation. The member is promoted to officer with 3 recommendations from RBers.

Thoughts?

KoP

[soul]

I don't believe this person is in the guild anymore, and name doesn't really matter, just be wary of giving handouts to people spamming you demands that you do. It seems they left after I (and/or the others on at the time) turned their incessant requests to be given gold down... Actually, I initially asked them to wait until I was in an outpost and could move to wherever they were without losing what I'd been doing, and they only started asking more, even suggesting that I quit whatever I was doing, map over and give them gold, and then I could go back and do my thing. After several more minutes, and more requests from me that they wait, they vanished from the guild list.

I got the impression they may have been spamming in towns to join guilds, then when accepted into them, begging for money, and leaving shortly after with whatever they could get.

I've nothing against recruiting "PuGs", but like Drasca mentioned, I think it necessary to at least talk to them for awhile first. I've read the 'horror stories' of guilds doing random recruiting and offering officer slots, where some person, for fun, will join in and kick all the members in the guild.. at least this person wasn't promoted at the time.

As for the recommendation system, looks fine to me.

[Zed-F]

Gone already? Good, I was worried it was another person who joined recently but is still here. He seemed like a decent sort when I spoke to him (this other new member) and didn't once ask for funds.

And for the record, he's a member, not an officer.

[Drasca]

Thanks for making that clear zed. Yep, he left.

I may have been muddleheaded, but I wasn't completely stupid. No way do I promote strangers to officer.

Who is it, Drasca?

As SF said, the guy left.

for awhile first

A while being as short as a 30 second interview Anyhow, 'member' status is safe to invite into. The officer thing is still somewhat dangerous, but let's see what our current member(s) actually feel first about if/when they'll be promoted.

[Jude]

Nevermind

[Hureg]

Ok so this is a really really old but now apparently super relevant thread which Warblade brought up in a discussion he, Jude and Wyrm wanted with me.

Apparently the 3 of them have some problems with the automatic promotions to officer that have been going on recently ie. the AB bunch and my friend.

From scanning the Guild List, the last person to be promoted from the screening process this thread talks about was Bozack almost a year ago now...

I had assumed that the fear factor this thread had caught onto had been replaced once again with a "your friends are my friends mentality, yay more people to play with!", which I think fits the relaxed atmosphere we have. Apparently I'm mistaken though and am calling for a current clarification of what people want.

My view is that being an officer or being a member doesn't mean anything. Nor should it ever mean anything for us. I don't see being an officer as having passed the RB entry requirements. And I trust all of you enough to not invite and promote someone who's going to abuse the privileges of being an officer. What's important on the "G" screen is the ability to see who is actively online.

Because of the convenience of officers being able to invite new members we're all officers. This means that our officer list is long enough to fill the "G" screen and I for one and Vort for another (and we're surely not the only ones) rarely bother to scroll down the "G" list to even bother to check if there are any members on. And the reason why is because there is normally not anybody there...

Because this is happening a scenario that leads to less integration with new members and higher chances that they will leave the guild occurs. Visibility is key here. If someone gets invited in and they get automatically promoted (because someone can vouch that they are aren't going to cause any trouble) then the only harm that can come of it is them not fitting in, in which case, we can discuss kicking them out. I really don't see why it has to be a problem in situations that are extremely unlikely to be a problem...

Alternatively we could demote everyone and leave a handful of officers so the "G" screen shows the members list. The officer list aiming to always have at least one of its group online and changing according to activity patterns. A list something like Fox, Seijin, Courin and Warblade would make sense.

So basically I'm arguing for visibility of new players and the failure the current system of leaving them on the members list has. Obviously it's unavoidable with strangers, but if someone's going to vouch for someone then i think its a good idea to bypass the visibility problem.

[FoxBat]

Necroing wasn't the best way to bring the point up, but apparently Jude didn't have post creation rights due to anti-spambot measures... anyway the topic is on the table now.

So basically I'm arguing for visibility of new players and the failure the current system of leaving them on the members list has. Obviously it's unavoidable with strangers, but if someone's going to vouch for someone then i think its a good idea to bypass the visibility problem.

This is a real issue, but I had a different idea how to go about it.

1) I did go and stretch my guild list so I can see down to the members, but I'm running at a decent resolution too.

2) I did remind wyrm about us demoting inactive officers, and suggested that we move this from 3 months to 1 month. It might not solve the issue but it would help. We also don't have people's guilded secondary accounts as officers for the same reason.

If you really accept that members and officers aren't different, then I see your point, and regardless, it's one we need to think of tackling one way or the other.

However that has not been traditionally the case. There is one important difference between officer and member, and that is that we trust officers to make good invite decisions. A big part of that trust is that we DO have problems kicking people, much as we've worked hard to keep the forum largely unmoderated (beyond the spam bots). We don't like the idea of the guild leader spot making the decision based on their personal preferences, yet it's hard to get a consensus going in short order. Now there are some real downsides to the approach, but this approach does rest on an important difference between member and officer.

On the other hand, it has not been a guild consensus issue in the past to promote officers. It's been sufficient that if a guildy trusts someone enough to promote them, then in theory that's good enough for the guild. In practice I have winced a little seeing certain random promotions happen, for example our completely silent Mithras who has had zero interaction or talking with us despite several efforts. I believe he's Grimm's boss and may not even speak english well, and he's done nothing to abuse the "power", but I don't know why someone with zero interaction in the guild suddenly gets promoted to officer. (I think Drasca was responsbile there... and he might be thinking along similar lines as you are.) And while I do trust Shadguy quite well from our past dealings, I hadn't played with him much in GW so I wasn't the one to immediately promote him to officer, with the thought that he should at least see how RB operates first. On the flipside I think one of us (me?) promoted Temba/Rakim B in short order, because a fair number of guildies already know him well and have played many games with him. If we think some kind of policy is needed that put a "waiting period" then that wouldn't necessarily be a terrible thing, but it wasn't particularly needed in that case.

Still one significant reason I haven't complained about this in the past is that RB has had very little infusion of new blood for a long while. Most of our current activity is a revival of people coming back to the game and checking out the zquests, plus we poached a few mostly inactive AB members due to their diffuclties getting GvG together this summer. Ultimately I do think we need to be more able and willing to take chances and get to know other people; but if anything, that's probably going to mean a larger difference between offiers and members rather than a smaller one, and yet would also make tackling the visibility issue more pressing.

I do have a concern about a smaller officer list - how is it decided who gets to be officer and who isn't? This has some very political potential; at best, some cumbersome yet fair democratic system that some guilds have worked hard to maintain in the past, with elected representatives and so forth: at worst, whoever happens to be in favor with the guild leader. The only remotely simple and fair thing I can come up right now is to get more aggressive about officer activity, demoting people that have been off for two weeks and not restoring them until they log on more than once a week, as the chances of them inviting and retaining someone are low in that case. And then there's still the issue that realistically, the existing officers would have to invite people based on member recommendations, which then brings into play how well the officer knows a member making the request.

Anyway I think this is an important issue and that we do need some kind of change addressing some of these points- I hope we can get others to chime in with their thoughts.