[SPOILERS] Pindicator emerges from the wilderness to play pb74

[pindicator]

If you are ever in Cle Elum, Washington, the Sunset Cafe has great food.

Also, Spade Lake was gorgeous and worth the climb.

[aetryn]

If you are ever in Cle Elum, Washington, the Sunset Cafe has great food.

Also, Spade Lake was gorgeous and worth the climb.

I've been to Leavenworth a couple times but not Cle Elum.

Interested in a pretty green ded-lurker also from the Pacific Northwest? I've followed a few of your games but never really felt confident enough to chime in much. Not sure why playing half a game qualifies me to comment on anything, but maybe I can be company or at least a rubber duck at least.

[pindicator]

Hop on board! I don't think there should be any game requirement for ded-lurking, and it will make me explain what I'm doing and thinking more which will help me play better too

[aetryn]

Hop on board! I don't think there should be any game requirement for ded-lurking, and it will make me explain what I'm doing and thinking more which will help me play better too

Thanks! I got the impression from some of your name schemes that you're in the Portland area somewhere. I'm just across the river in East Vancouver. Sounds like you get out on adventures more than I do though!

What do you think of your combos so far? I gather there's some confusion as to whether you can reroll part or only the entire thing?

[Hitru]

As promised before I will also hop in just for the ride. Don't expect too much actual help though

[pindicator]

Well it's unclear whether or not we can roll half of the combination or have to roll the whole thing, and it's unclear how many rolls we get, so let's just look at what we have here:

Pindicator is Shaka OR Zara Yaqob OR Saladin of Sumeria

Let's get the civilization out of the way right now: Sumeria is a lock. A slight error in the patch notes: it is not unchanged from BtS as CtH (and RtR both I believe) give the Vulture an additional +5% vs Axemen so they don't have losing odds in battles vs Axemen (4.8 vs 5 otherwise). The Ziggerat is the main strength of the civilization, giving us a discounted courthouse that unlocks at Priesthood instead of Code of Laws. So what does that change mean for us?

1. We don't care about Code of Laws. Without the Courthouse the only draw for Code of Laws becomes Caste or founding a religion. Caste is still very good for GP generation, but I feel like Serfdom outshines it a bit more in CtH, allowing for farms and windmills to become profitable. In actuality it will come down to the terrain: green and food-rich land will want Caste to run specialists and use workshops for production; dry lands will want Serfdom for commerce from farms and use windmills for production. With the tendency of games to be more food-poor than the Realms Beyond standard, I would bet more on Serfdom.

But further down the line this means we are shying away from techs like Civil Service and Philosophy and leaning more towards Theocracy and Feudalism. (I suppose you could always get to Civil Service via Feudalism and Philosophy via Drama...) Less towards maces and more towards knights and longbows.

2. We do care about the religious line. Since we know we need to get to Priesthood we will have to tech at least Meditation/Polytheism, and so a couple of very good technologies for civics are close by: Monotheism for Organized Religion is just one step past Polytheism, and Monarchy for Hereditary Rule and Serfdom is one step past Priesthood. These in turn make Saladin a leader to consider since he is SPI, although I don't believe that is necessarily required. (However, I haven't played with SPI in forever and I'm not sure I've played with it at all using CtH, so this makes me very interested in Saladin.)

With 20 players a shrine is far less likely. A religion could be a long time coming, too, especially if they are all founded by distant civs. There's a risk on banking on a religion with the early game, although that could be solved in part by...

3. We could make a play for the Oracle. Another no-brainer since it shares the same tech as the Ziggurat. We would need to reroll our leader here and hope for IND. Or if we can get an early Marble hooked up, but that is less likely. I'm less inclined to gamble, but it's a consideration.

4. ORG becomes very good. Zara Yaqob as CRE/ORG could be a monster REX-er with Sumeria. CRE would allow better quality early cities with the free pop spread and ORG would let you practically finish a courthouse with a single chop.


Okay, I'm not decided yet but I think it's safe to say we're locking in Sumeria and discounting Shaka. I don't see how EXP and AGG really benefits Sumeria as we're not looking to build a lot of units early. I would absolutely like to play AGG too, but I just don't think it fits as well here as the other two choices do.

So what do you think Hitru and aetryn? CRE/ORG Zara for the fast rex ability, or SPI/PRO Saladin for focusing on the religious side of things? I think I am leaning Zara Yaqob but at the same time I have been wanting to play a SPI game for a long time.

[Mjmd]

CtH does not change Vulture as far as I'm aware (and I've played twice, but possible I missed). Bad vs axes, but that being said I did like attacking with using vultures well into the medieval period as semi relevant fodder.

[Hitru]

Can't remember traits in CtH, is Cre buffed here? And Exp is not giving bonus to workers and granaries, right?

With that assumption I think Zara makes sense with Sumeria. I would make a play for religion.

[pindicator]

EDIT: Wrong mod!

[aetryn]

Well it's unclear whether or not we can roll half of the combination or have to roll the whole thing, and it's unclear how many rolls we get, so let's just look at what we have here:

Pindicator is Shaka OR Zara Yaqob OR Saladin of Sumeria

Let's get the civilization out of the way right now:  Sumeria is a lock.  A slight error in the patch notes: it is not unchanged from BtS as CtH (and RtR both I believe) give the Vulture an additional +5% vs Axemen so they don't have losing odds in battles vs Axemen (4.8 vs 5 otherwise).  The Ziggerat is the main strength of the civilization, giving us a discounted courthouse that unlocks at Priesthood instead of Code of Laws.  So what does that change mean for us?

1.  We don't care about Code of Laws.  Without the Courthouse the only draw for Code of Laws becomes Caste or founding a religion.  Caste is still very good for GP generation, but I feel like Serfdom outshines it a bit more in CtH, allowing for farms and windmills to become profitable.  In actuality it will come down to the terrain:  green and food-rich land will want Caste to run specialists and use workshops for production; dry lands will want Serfdom for commerce from farms and use windmills for production.  With the tendency of games to be more food-poor than the Realms Beyond standard, I would bet more on Serfdom.

But further down the line this means we are shying away from techs like Civil Service and Philosophy and leaning more towards Theocracy and Feudalism.  (I suppose you could always get to Civil Service via Feudalism and Philosophy via Drama...)  Less towards maces and more towards knights and longbows.

2.  We do care about the religious line.  Since we know we need to get to Priesthood we will have to tech at least Meditation/Polytheism, and so a couple of very good technologies for civics are close by:  Monotheism for Organized Religion is just one step past Polytheism, and Monarchy for Hereditary Rule and Serfdom is one step past Priesthood.  These in turn make Saladin a leader to consider since he is SPI, although I don't believe that is necessarily required.  (However, I haven't played with SPI in forever and I'm not sure I've played with it at all using CtH, so this makes me very interested in Saladin.)

With 20 players a shrine is far less likely.  A religion could be a long time coming, too, especially if they are all founded by distant civs.  There's a risk on banking on a religion with the early game, although that could be solved in part by...

3.  We could make a play for the Oracle.  Another no-brainer since it shares the same tech as the Ziggurat.  We would need to reroll our leader here and hope for IND.  Or if we can get an early Marble hooked up, but that is less likely.  I'm less inclined to gamble, but it's a consideration.

4.  ORG becomes very good.  Zara Yaqob as CRE/ORG could be a monster REX-er with Sumeria.  CRE would allow better quality early cities with the free pop spread and ORG would let you practically finish a courthouse with a single chop.


Okay, I'm not decided yet but I think it's safe to say we're locking in Sumeria and discounting Shaka.  I don't see how EXP and AGG really benefits Sumeria as we're not looking to build a lot of units early.  I would absolutely like to play AGG too, but I just don't think it fits as well here as the other two choices do.

So what do you think Hitru and aetryn?  CRE/ORG Zara for the fast rex ability, or SPI/PRO Saladin for focusing on the religious side of things?  I think I am leaning Zara Yaqob but at the same time I have been wanting to play a SPI game for a long time.

Is Protective more or less valuable in a very large game where it's likely you'll be able to trade with someone, even if not immediately? Its economic effect probably comes in just a bit earlier than ORG, but maybe isn't as significant as fast courthouses. ORG also effectively saves you hammers in the medieval period for not having to build all those courthouses at a time when there's lots of other stuff you want to build. I also like the freedom to place cities more effectively with 2nd ring borders. It feels like Zara and Saladin are both pretty good rolls - Zara's traits are strong, and Saladin has a good economic trait with SPI, when you could have totally rolled SPI with worse options. Unless you feel like really want to make an Oracle play, I probably wouldn't re-roll leaders here. 

I'm pretty much with you on this - lean Zara, but I'd love to see how SPI gets used to good effect, so if you're interested in that at least it's a decent combo with PRO.