Dreylin Blues 2000 is on (another) mission from Cod

[Dreylin]

Since things went so well last time, I guess I'll stick with the same theme. 

Password (probably): fish


Sticking this in here for reference:

• Greenline - Catherine (CRE/IMP) of Sumeria (Vulture/Ziggurat)
  
  
• Naufragar - Suleiman (PHI/IMP) of America (Carnegie/Navy Seal)
  
  
• Gavagai - Asoka (SPI/ORG) of Egypt (Obelisk/War Chariot)
  
  
• Ricketyclik - Huayna Capac (IND/FIN) of the Incas (Quechua/Terrace)
  
  
• Mjmd - Nebuchadnezzar (IND/PHI) of India (Fast Worker/Mausoleum)
  
  
• Ginger - Washington (EXP/CHA) of Ottomans (Janissary/Hammam)
  
  
• ljubljana - Tokugawa (AGG/PRO) of Zulu (Impi/Ikhanda)
  
  
• Dreylin - Napoleon (CHA/ORG) of Babylon (Bowmen/Garden)
  
  
• Superdeath - Kublai Khan (AGG/CRE) of Rome (Praetorian/Forum)
  
  
• GT - Boudica (AGG/CHA) of Ethiopia (Oromo/Stele)
  

[Tarkeel]

I'm rooting for you!

[Dreylin]

Looking like Snake is going to win pick method, so I'm going to have to do some research / put in some thought before picking Mehmed II...   

More seriously though, I've actually been thinking about having a go with CRE this game, but I haven't looked in detail at what CtH did with the traits so that's the starting point.

[Dreylin]

I'm rooting for you!

My goal for this game is to see turn 100.... 

[Tarkeel]

Mehmed is IMHO a very solid and often overlooked leader. ORG needs no introduction, but is better on EMPeror, and EXPansive even got a stealth-buff when circumnavigation bonus was moved to harbors.

[Dreylin]

You haven't been in my PB74 thread, and I don't know how much you looked back at my prior games, but my best results at RB have been with Mehmed II, so when he popped up in the block for that game he was auto-pick for me.

I don't really think I'll go with him again this time, but agree he's a solid leader that doesn't really leap out at any stage. I did find myself missing the EXP Worker bonus - which I guess is why the Harbour buff was needed - which is part of why I want to look at something else.

[Dreylin]

Looking through the traits and CtH adjustments, the other thing I've always liked about Mehmed II is that he's "Mister Cheap Building" with (base) 5, of which 3 are build-everywhere, 1 is coastal everywhere and the final upgrades from situational to everywhere when it's cheap. Adding the cheap Aqueduct is great if you're Ottoman, but otherwise pretty meh since you already have the trait Health bonus. Anyway, we're not picking Mehmed II again, right? 

The changes to CRE are fairly minimal (vs BTS), losing the Colosseum bonus is a fairly niche hit, but that does mean that CRE remains a predominantly early-game trait as opposed to what Krill was trying to do with RtR. So that means balancing with a late-game trait such as FIN or ORG.

We've talked about ORG above and there are no CtH changes, but the changes to FIN are very interesting. The goal seems to have been to remove all the early game benefits without touching the late game potential - OK, reduced cost Banks does increase the late game utility, but was FIN so strong that that it needed to have the early game gutted?

The other trait whose changes intrigue me is CHA. The problem I've always had conceptually with CHA is that on a typical RB-balanced map, the addl. happy cap never seemed like a huge deal ... and yes Krill has undoubtedly told me that I should think of it not as an extra tile being worked but as facilitating a more frequent whip, but I can't always get my brain to focus on those details. But the 1/2-price Monuments that CtH brings is enough extra juice to make me stand up and take notice where each of the other benefits always feel meh even if they really aren't.

So I guess right now I'm looking at Zara or Napoleon for leaders.

For the Civ itself I'm going to wait for a starting screenshot before even really thinking about it. I want both techs to be impactful this game after Fishing being a dead tech for me in PB74, but obviously I'll also be looking for some synergy with the leader traits. And position on the snake order will make a difference too, as it always does.

[Tarkeel]

Looking through the traits and CtH adjustments, the other thing I've always liked about Mehmed II is that he's "Mister Cheap Building" with (base) 5, of which 3 are build-everywhere, 1 is coastal everywhere and the final upgrades from situational to everywhere when it's cheap. Adding the cheap Aqueduct is great if you're Ottoman, but otherwise pretty meh since you already have the trait Health bonus. Anyway, we're not picking Mehmed II again, right? 

We played Mehmed in PB66, and ended up building aqueducts everywhere in the industrial age, even adding grocers in many cities for the health bonus.

We've talked about ORG above and there are no CtH changes, but the changes to FIN are very interesting. The goal seems to have been to remove all the early game benefits without touching the late game potential - OK, reduced cost Banks does increase the late game utility, but was FIN so strong that that it needed to have the early game gutted?

In short, Yes. Balancing the late game aspect of FIN is very hard, but I think nerfing the early play of it has worked out pretty well. Do check out Jowy's opening as FIN/ORG Darius in PB60 though, that was... Interesting.

The other trait whose changes intrigue me is CHA. The problem I've always had conceptually with CHA is that on a typical RB-balanced map, the addl. happy cap never seemed like a huge deal ... and yes Krill has undoubtedly told me that I should think of it not as an extra tile being worked but as facilitating a more frequent whip, but I can't always get my brain to focus on those details. But the 1/2-price Monuments that CtH brings is enough extra juice to make me stand up and take notice where each of the other benefits always feel meh even if they really aren't.

Don't discount the value of cheaper CHA promotions, especially on boats where XP isn't as easy to accrue, but the cheaper monuments are actually very useful.

[Commodore]

I love CtH CHA. Just...every part of it.

[Dreylin]

each of the other benefits always feel meh even if they really aren't.

Don't discount the value of cheaper CHA promotions, especially on boats where XP isn't as easy to accrue, but the cheaper monuments are actually very useful.

That was the specific bonus I was thinking of when I wrote the above. 

Have been gradually leaning more in this direction as I did the research / thought about it. It's good to have a couple of thoughts in mind to guard against disappointment, and to give different synergy options for the civ / map sides of the equation.