[PB84] - The Long Wait

[xist10]

I think it's time to open my thread too.

Mjmd proposed the game idea back in April 2025, Tarkeel was the last signup (of six !) last month and now we still wait for all players to finish the voting spreadsheet.

And someone needs to modify the map.

So let's see if we can get the leader selection starting next week.

[xist10]

Okay, one month later and we finished leader selection.

I had second and second last place in the pick order.
Not a good place for me, when I do have a few problems with decision paralysis.

Anyway, I choosed Darius (FIN/ORG) as first leader.
Late game pick, but why not try it ?
I doubled down on that with Germany as Civ.
I want to try the new Riesengarde - is even better than the German Tank, because cIV Germany is very Prussia from the leaders and the Riesengarde is a special Prussian Regiment (founded under Frederik I I think, the father of Frederik the GReat, which is one of the Ingame leaders).

Anyway, gameplan is beeline to chemistry and steam power and then going in the middle ?

[xist10]

I decided to post a halfway complete story and this time, I again will use the civforum.de as host platform for the screenshots and the use DeepL to translate my German posts.

So if you want early access, please follow my thread here.
If you don't want it, no problem, I will try to keep this thread up to date, but I expect my RealmsBeyond thread to behind a few turns.

About the rules of the game:
- Mod Close to Home 5.0.1
- King
- AI Diplo - i.e. also declare war on, establish trade and change form of government/religion
- No barbarians*
- No spies
- No events, tribal villages
- No giving away units

After a vote among the players, the following rules were also established:
- Maximum of 1 city trade per trade screen (what's the point of that ? More than one trade per turn should be allowed by the rules. And it's also not that useful if you directly ban city trades. Any way all players know what this means and actually play fairly)
- Coin toss if turn order is important (and cannot be determined by turn order) - So something like who gets to bulb theology first, who gets to found a city first
- Prohibition of teleportation tricks (whatever that is/how that can be enforced)
- 1 reload without asking (for the game/per person), basically as long as no combat took place

There was a tie on whether to play without a scoreboard.
In the game itself, the scoreboard is useful.





Some of you may be familiar with this map, right?
This nice map was created for the final of Sulla's last AI tournament.
There was a focus on balance when the map got created by Cuthraxys and as such, the map could also be used for multiplayer games, or ?

And we also sued this particular map shape to try another game option.

‘King of the Hill’.
There is a well-guarded barbarian city (3 rifles) in the middle of the map.

If one party conquers this city and then holds it for 15 consecutive turns, that player wins.

Let's see what impact this has on the game.

*So no barbarians should spawn, but the barbarian city exists and can train units. - However, the Rifles should not move away from the city.

[xist10]

Which players have agreed to participate?

Bing - Victoria (Fin/Imp) of the Netherlands
Xist - Darius I (Fin/Org) of Germany
Tarkeel - Shaka (AGG/EXP) of Zulu
Superdeath - Kublei Khan (Cre/Agg) of Sumeria
Civac2 - Elizabeth (Fin/Phil) of Egypt
Mjmd - Willem (Cre/Fin) of America

I think all of the players may already be familiar to avid story readers.
All are experienced players, each having completed over 10 games.

I will come back to the picks in 2 posts.

[xist10]

Before I get to the players, a word or two about the map.

Created by Cuthraxys for the final of the 8th season of Sullas AI Survivor, the map is relatively balanced.
Mjmd has now made a few adjustments.




The map is therefore relatively versatile in terms of usable resources.
One of Mjmd's changes is also visible here.
The island for your own trade routes is new.




In addition to the 4-6 luxury resources, you have access to all food resources – except bananas.




This also makes the start quite interesting.
You start with 4 food resources, but you cannot use any tech twice.
Unfortunately, the deer also has no forest.




And here is the Barbs town to be defended in the middle.
It has the only silver on the map and also the only gems nearby.

[xist10]

Now to the other players.

Let's start with Bing.
Bing plays a lot of games, but hasn't had any real success so far?
As far as I can tell, Bing is a solid player, but – just like me – is usually a bit too slow.
In my opinion, Bing also lacks decisiveness.

I think this was particularly evident in my last completed EitB game.
coldrain overran DaveV (and at least managed a draw with Auroarcher and me), and Bing didn't even consider intervening anywhere.

Based on his general PB experience, I don't want to write Bing off as easy prey, but off the top of my head, Bing seems to be the weakest player in the group.

Bing had 1st and 12th place in the pick phase.
Bing chose Viktoria first.
With FIN/IMP, that's definitely a solid choice.
Especially since we're only playing King and the land isn't bad, the strategy here is probably to expand as fast as possible, then see what happens.

However, I find the Netherlands as the second choice somewhat questionable.
After all, OSV4 taught me to look at the starting technologies, but that doesn't change much.
Fishing is definitely necessary in the medium term, especially since the island with the 2 , is definitely a reason to tech sailing.
Still, it's not something I would start with right away.
Agriculture, on the other hand, is quite nice.

The dyke and the East Indians are not something I would really rate as good on this map.
Coasts are not bad tiles – this applies doubly to FIN coasts – but nevertheless, coasts (including dyke coasts) should really only be ‘filler material’.
I may have underestimated the East Indies a little, but I still don't think they're very useful on this map.

Interference actions via the coast probably make sense, but do you really need the East Indies for that?

All in all, I don't see much chance of victory with Bing.

I was second in the pick order.
Darius I (Fin/Org) has a similar idea to mine for Bing, I suspect.
Eco Traits and then build for a longer game.
Although ORG won't be that good on the king difficulty level. Pacal might be better with EXP ?

For the civ, I thought a little longer about taking Rome again.
Praetorians are simply a good argument.
In the end, however, I decided to go double down on the long term plan and chose Germany.
Hunting/mining doesn't sound too bad as starting techs, and Germany's UB and UU have been improved.
UB – still the assembly plant as a factory replacement – comes ~5 techs earlier with a steam power instead of at assembly line.
Otherwise, I think it's unchanged compared to BtS?
+2 , +2 engineer slots and construction bonus with copper (no idea what the BtS values are) compared to the factory.

The UU, on the other hand, has been significantly improved.
The Riesengarde is a Grenadier UU that comes one tech earlier – Chemistry instead of Military Science.
Plus Pinch as a free promotion.

I see better chances of winning than Bing, but I also think that I can't play my advantages well enough to really have a chance.
Conversely, I'm probably best prepared for a long game?


Tarkeel is the player I had the least contact with.
As far as I know, Tarkeel has completed 3 or 4 games with Civac, including 2 ‘victories’ - one of which was RB66, which ended in a 4-way draw, if anything.
Tarkeel hasn't completed that many games, but he has had some success.
I would actually rank him behind Mjmd and Civac off the top of my head.

Tarkeel's first choice was the Zulu.
Agriculture/Hunting as starting techs are very useful here.
I almost think Animal Husbandry->Bronze is definitely the right choice here?
Ikhanda is also a very nice UB with -20% city maintenance, whereas Impi is difficult to assess.
I consider spears to be relatively ‘bad’ and, from experience, I consistently underestimate bonuses.

Tarkeels second choice was, somewhat surprisingly, Shaka.
AGG is significantly stronger than in BtS, especially when games go on longer (and you can keep up technologically to some extent). However, halving unit costs doesn't really help at the beginning.

EXP is actually one of the traits I would have to try out for myself.
Even if I think EXP is overrated, partial because it looses the Worker Bonus in CtH.

With Tarkeel, I don't really have a plan for what the goal is.
Ikhanda and AGG to save on maintenance costs and thus get into a longer game?
But wouldn't AGG/FIN or AGG/ORG be better then?

I can't assess Tarkeel.
Spontaneously, one of the 3 candidates for victory, but I just have no idea how. Good game and probably no direct weaknesses.

Superdeath is probably much more competent than he appears.
However, SD's reputation is that he will build a reasonably decent setup and then attack the first neighbour he finds, thereby taking himself and, if all goes well, the other player out of the game.
SD is also quite capable of getting caught up in a (supposed) injustice and ruining his own chances in an attempt to get revenge.
Kublai Khan as the first choice does nothing to dispel this reputation.
Kublai is the worst neighbour you can have in the early stages.
CRE/AGG can define borders relatively unscrupulously.
Free combat promotion and very fast 20% means you can't easily punish pink dots.
The Sumerians as a Civ choice are also unpleasant in this context.
Ziggurats come much earlier than courts, which is why they help to carry more distant cities.
AGG Vultures, on the other hand, are almost worse than AGG Praetorians.
Only with catapults do the Vultures lose some relevance, while the Praetorians remain relevant.

If the expected Vulture attack from SD is successful, SD could become relevant.
However, I wouldn't count on it too much, as SD rolled over a player relatively quickly in RB75 (ricketyclik, who played even worse than in RB79), but then slipped into irrelevance relatively quickly afterwards.
SD's relevance will probably be whose game he tries to ruin.

Civac flew under my radar for a long time – I've hardly played a game with Civac. - Still more than with Tarkeel.
Nevertheless, Civac is probably the strongest player here?
Mjmd disappointed me a few times.

Elizabeth was chosen first.
The next FIN leader, this time with PHI.
PHI is difficult to play, but can have a huge impact. I think Civac is capable enough to play PHI.

Egypt is a little difficult to assess. Warchariots is always a danger, otherwise Obelsik gives a priest slot ?
Civac might want to do something there.
With agriculture and the wheel, these are basically not bad starting technologies; if in doubt, you can build roads.

Also a candidate for victory here.

Mjmd is the last player here.
Quite capable, I don't consider Mjmd to be the easiest opponent to get along with.
It starts with the affair in RB70 (Yes, I still remeber this. It was your right to act so, but you have to expect consequenses). I can't really point to a similiar occurence in a NoDIplo game, but I do think Mjmd isn't the easiest neighbour.
Mjmd's performance in RB81 was also not as good as I had hoped. - Okay, probably still better than my result.

Mjmd was allowed to choose directly after each other.
Wilhem with CRE/FIN is damn easy to play and still one of the stronger leaders.
You don't have to do anything and you can use the traits close to their optimum.
I think this is the third time that Mjmd has chosen America? Mjmd considers the 1 offered by the American library (without type) to be extremely strong. I agree to a certain extent with the 2 in the latest mod version, but now?
Especially without PHI? I think Mjmd is on the wrong track now.
Navy Seal is unchanged, fishing/agriculture is so-so. Maybe I'm underestimating the advantage of being able to occupy the 2 , 2 clam tile at the beginning.

So, based on playing strength, Mjmd is in the leading group, but otherwise ?
Let's see.

[xist10]

So, now to the game itself.

As already mentioned, we have ‘King of the Hill’ as a victory option.

So if I take over the central Barbs city in R0, I have to hold it until the end of R15 – 15 whole rounds and the variable length of R0.

Against 5 other players, I think it will be a little more difficult.

Conversely, there is always this problem with coordination in a NoDiplo game and the option of defeating different armies separately.


Not to mention that the hill's guards with 3 rifles can supposedly be taken with 10 city attack 2 swords.

My tests suggest 20 swords – it may well be that Tarkeel forgot either the hill, the river or the entrenchment in the test – but the point is, with a bit of luck, the archers can be defeated relatively early on.

Not to mention possible ideas.

And when the city falls, the question is whether you want to intervene or let the others fight first?

So the game can go surprisingly fast – with 8 rounds of hiking, you could put the HS in the jungle – or it could take a very long time.

I'm building for a longer game and probably want to attack the city with machine guns/cannons/Riesengarde.





Otherwise, as expected, I founded on the EH and my scout is supposed to find Civac.
Research on agriculture, city builds the worker.




That would be the current research plan.




And here is the first settlement plan.
Blue and red would actually have priority.
Red would already be contested and would secure the resource-rich area to some extent.

I just noticed that I forgot the city with wheat, but the current plan would have 15 cities with capital and wheat city.

The ‘problem’ with this?
I have Tarkeel and Civac as neighbours.
Fortunately, no vultures, but I don't know if war chariots are much better.