PBEM26 PostGame Thread

[pindicator]

Just wanted to say GG to everyone. It was a pleasure to play with everybody and i thought we had a remarkable turn pace. I look forward to reading your threads and seeing how much i was on with my gameplay decisions.

[Gaspar]

I'll break the ice since I don't have a lot to say. Commodore and I get along well but don't really line up as teammates all that well since we're very similar personalities. So ultimately because for the first 120 turns or so I was busier than he was this ended up being more his game than mine, so I'll let him give the official team Gaspadore post-mortems.

Ultimately, I was okay with the diplo victory for Pindicator more than anything because it was an accurate description of what happened - Pindicator won PBEM26 by diplomacy. I don't believe it would have been any more meaningful for him to go through the motions of whatever nonsense occurred after yuri and us were dead. After the Berserker-sale shenanigans somehow made rego more mad at us than Pindicator, it was apparent that the diplomacy in the game was a complete farce, regoarrarr was as myopic in diplomacy as he ever is (no offense, but this is the second time I've played a game with you where your actions made no sense from a big picture/trying to win the game standpoint) and pindicator was going to be able to run away with the thing. There really was no point in playing on in my opinion, and apparently at least in yuri and pins opinion as well.

That said, we certainly have nothing to cry about. We played a pretty terrible game that was salvaged to respectability by some hail marys. We picked the wrong Civ by a long shot (even if I think we got the leader most right.) We played that mistake in to a horrible open. We made half-assed attempts at a couple wonders that really set us back. We didn't go all in enough at any point in the war with Sian. We didn't demand a long enough NAP from rego with the zerk attack. And we didn't ever do anything to make pin uncomfortable even though with the diplo as it was, we were the best positioned to do so. That stuff is why we lost and badly. We got lucky with the RNG early in the Sian war (and lucky Commodore was playing those turns - I doubt I would have even tried, but he is the eternal optimist.) We did the best we could in that situation with the zerks and rego, as actually going to war with him - while it might have served to drag rego back more ultimately it wouldn't have helped us and would have propelled pindicator further ahead.

Anyway, it was an interesting game. I think it might be fun actually to try an Always Peace game on a Tiny Islands map - that settling race fun is actually what made me want to try a game with these settings out. But ultimately, it was the final nail in the coffin for me ever playing another full diplomacy game - ultimately, if the players are close enough in skill level nothing that happens in the game matters all that much. Congratulations pindicator on a well-deserved victory and gg to regoarrarr, yuris and Sian.

[Commodore]

I honestly don't have a ton to add to what Gaspar said. He made a hillarious post not too far in entitled "Civilization IV: We're Doing It Wrong" and that just about sums up our early game. Carthage, nice as cothons and Numidians were, was the wrong pick for the start. It's depressing, but even Japan would have been better for early Pottery, we just massively misplayed it (and I see we were ripped to shreds for it in the lurker thread for it).

I did see mention, I think it was in Pin's thread, about Sian crumbling. Um. No. He didn't. At all. We got a lucky run in the Battle of Pedro, but with as many units as we had in the pipeline following up, the city was going to fall in another turn or two either way. Circumnavigation is a pretty overwhelming fork advantage in the early game. But for all that, Sian faught a dogged, spiteful war that lasted longer than I've ever seen in these games.

That was the hamstringing, but we now know that the game was more or less lost from the get-go. I understand that Regoarrarr intended to play this game differently from his "previous diplo shenanigans", and I suppose to Pin he was a good ally. But to the "natives" it seems like a downright insulting move for two players to decide on spliting the world between the two of them, hell or high water, and to hell with plebians who might also want a say in it. Thus, why I pushed for Yuri's vote to end it. If you guys want a duel, I'd be happy to roll a map for that. Looking on the outside, this seems like more of the same shenanigans, like, for instance, declaring war on Plako to force him into the later timer so that Lord Parkin could get first-strike on the coalition. Again, on the receiving end it's not very fun to have someone screw with you against their own best interests to win the game. There is a reason diplo-on games are 90% poison, and #1 and #2 working together to surpress the uppity wogs so that they can duel like gentlemen is the ugliest side of it. Sadly, human nature is such that as long as diplomacy is on, these kinds of shut-outs will always occur.

Disgust with that facet aside, this has been a fun game. Never having played a full-out war to the death, I learned a whole lot, and Gaspar has been a highly entertaining teammate (and a wiser one than I, he's much better on most counts in this game, I own the blame for our worst weed). So gg all, and Hail Pope Buddha.

[darrelljs]

(and I see we were ripped to shreds for it in the lurker thread for it).

Yeah, but all lurkers are assholes so its nothing to worry about .

There is a reason diplo-on games are 90% poison, and #1 and #2 working together to surpress the uppity wogs so that they can duel like gentlemen is the ugliest side of it.

I think it only happens when there is a #1 and a #1a, or possible a #1, and two #2s. The key for this dynamic is parity; once the dust clears the pact members have to see a path to victory for it to make sense. Only a fool gets in bed with a runaway #1. Anyway that said I don't necessarily subscribe to your view that such pacts are "disgusting". Its just sound meta-gaming, and anyone who joins in a diplo game should expect it and pursue it themselves. Which is why I don't play in diplo games anymore .

Darrell

[yuris125]

I just hope this game will not be remembered by the Pindicator/Rego alliance and my vote. The fact of the matter is, Pindicator played an excellent game, utilised the strengths of Vikings perfectly, took advantage of my blunder very well, and didn't make any mistakes building up on the success of the war

As for my own game, I pretty much lost it by getting too busy REXing and forgetting to check the power graph for 20 (!) turns. So there isn't much to say, obviously I screwed up badly and didn't have a chance to win since then. Building Sistine gave me a slight chance for culture, but being so much behind in tech, on a water map, with NAPs expiring, this was a very long shot

The game was fun for the most part. The setup was very interesting, and Plako made an excellent map - thank you! Unfortunately, when existence of the alliance became obvious, the game changed from fun to frustration very quickly, for the reasons I pointed out in the tech thread. If not for the alliance, I would've played it out, even without a chance to win

As it turned out, however, I doubt I will be interested in playing a game with full diplo any time soon

Gg all, very well played and congratulations to Pindicator!

[pindicator]

Hey Gaspar & Commodore, thanks for being the first to give your insight. I got the feeling that I had the most energy for diplomacy this game, but maybe it's because past games have made it such a raw experience for vets by now. And I'm not sure I'm ready to throw diplo under the bus entirely, but I do think game-long deals are just a bad idea in principle. I think when I read Rego's thread I'm going to find that we had very different ideas about what our alliance entailed (and I was not looking forward to the fallout that was inevitably going to happen once it was down to the two of us).

Yeah, I did really have little idea what was going on with the Sian war so I'm looking forward to your thead to illuminate me. It did seem to keep you behind, but it wasn't until you bought my berserkers that you fell off the tech pace. Even with the Sian war, around t100 you were a solid #2 in total research as Yuri was falling off the pace (over-expansion before courthouses? I need to see his thread.) But I think you are giving Cothons a short stick. Yours was a combination I envied. Maybe I don't appreciate starting techs enough, but Viking starting techs were hardly much better.

Only a fool gets in bed with a runaway #1.

That would be me. Even worse, I made him #1 by giving him Oracle in addition to a secure border. It took about 5-10 turns to realize how dumb it was. I said in the lurker thread that selling Sian iron was my move, but i take it back. Allying with Rego and giving him the okay to get the Oracle was (although he did weasel that deal a little, changing what he used the wonder for).

Anyway that said I don't necessarily subscribe to your view that such pacts are "disgusting". Its just sound meta-gaming, and anyone who joins in a diplo game should expect it and pursue it themselves. Which is why I don't play in diplo games anymore

Yeah, I actively enjoyed that part of the game. I looked for people to stab me in deals, and in fact would have welcomed it in certain spots. How in the world did selling Gaspadore berserkers turn out to Rego hating Gaspadore? Or likewise, how did me selling iron to Sian make Gaspadore hate Rego? I seemed to get away from the consequences, maybe because I was new and unknown? I wrote in my thread at Rego's reputation rode to the rescue: was that accurate?

[yuris125]

I don't think overexpansion was ever a problem. With OB with everyone and economy powered by international, intercontinental trade routes, I managed to maintain a decent research rate right until your attack. Not noticing your power skyrocketing after you cancelled our NAP, on the other hand... that was really bad

[pindicator]

As for my own game, I pretty much lost it by getting too busy REXing and forgetting to check the power graph for 20 (!) turns. So there isn't much to say, obviously I screwed up badly and didn't have a chance to win since then. Building Sistine gave me a slight chance for culture, but being so much behind in tech, on a water map, with NAPs expiring, this was a very long shot

Ignoring the power graph when your neighbor's unique unit is about to come online is a pretty big error. Almost as big as giving the #1 a free wonder and border security

I was actually very surprised by your peace offer and I think you let me have too much. If you hadn't offered then I would have gone all-in. I would have burned Ollantaytambo and taken Corihuaysomething but probably would have run out of steam shortly after that.

In fact, I'm not sure war there was the right choice for me. If I didn't go for berserkers and war I would have probably been first to Literature and Music, picking up The Great Library and the Great Artist. Instead going for war let Rego pick those up. But i had caught him in GNP and research rate by that time, if he was being truthful in our talks.

I don't think overexpansion was ever a problem. With OB with everyone and economy powered by international, intercontinental trade routes, I managed to maintain a decent research rate right until your attack. Not noticing your power skyrocketing after you cancelled our NAP, on the other hand... that was really bad

I did cancel the NAP well before I planned to war for this reason; at least that part of the game seemed to be a good play. But with expansion, maybe delaying courthouses so long held you back? I ask because I was keeping track of total beakers researched, and you were a solid #2 at turn 50 but 30 turns later you were down to last. You were starting to build them by the start of the war, so I can only imagine how your beaker rate would have gone had I stayed passive.

[yuris125]

But with expansion, maybe delaying courthouses so long held you back? I ask because I was keeping track of total beakers researched, and you were a solid #2 at turn 50 but 30 turns later you were down to last. You were starting to build them by the start of the war, so I can only imagine how your beaker rate would have gone had I stayed passive.

I had to keep expanding, because that's basically the only strength Joao has And Rego was able to keep up with me in city count, so I felt like stopping would put me at a big disadvantage. As for delaying Courthouses, I actually didn't delay them that long. I squeezed in Calendar between Monarchy and CoL, because I felt I needed it for vertical growth. Maybe that was a mistake, maybe whipping units for HR happiness would've been better, and would've also solved the problem of holding off your attack Also I concentrated on buildings and didn't build Wealth in many cities, and that probably was a mistake as well, building Wealth to get CoL could've been a good idea. That's one of my weaknesses, choosing whether to build Markets or Wealth. I only was building Wealth for a few turns just before the war, to at least get Longbows before the attack

I did cancel the NAP well before I planned to war for this reason; at least that part of the game seemed to be a good play.

That was a very good play. I was watching your power closely for the first few turns after that, saw that it wasn't growing, and for some reason decided that the attack was not coming

In fact, I'm not sure war there was the right choice for me. If I didn't go for berserkers and war I would have probably been first to Literature and Music, picking up The Great Library and the Great Artist. Instead going for war let Rego pick those up. But i had caught him in GNP and research rate by that time, if he was being truthful in our talks.

Given my lack of defences, I'm sure the war was the right choice. You could expect to get at least 5 cities, and capturing 5 developed cities cannot be bad

I was actually very surprised by your peace offer and I think you let me have too much. If you hadn't offered then I would have gone all-in. I would have burned Ollantaytambo and taken Corihuaysomething but probably would have run out of steam shortly after that.

Don't know. You attacked with 12 Galleys, I assumed they were full of Berserkers. That's 24 Zerkers, and you only lost 3 in the initial attack. Knowing how few units I had for defence, my estimate was that 4 cities I gave in the peace treaty was the minimum I would've lost in the battle. My reasoning also was that if you still had all those units, you wouldn't want them to chill out. I hoped you would send them to attack Rego, that war probably would've been more difficult, and I could get a chance to come back this way

[regoarrarr]

I don't know how you can say that the problem is "#1 and #2 working together" when the very fact we HAD an alliance was the (main) reason that we WERE #1 and #2.

And again (just as at the end of PB4), I feel I have to defend people suggesting that I am not playing in my best interests. Here's how I see it.

As it stood - we would dispatch you and Yuri, and then duel with approximately the same size empire. He would have faster ships and a hammer edge, but I'd have the Kremlin, the Pyramids, and ( hopefully) Cristo Redentor.

Had I switched sides late in the game and worked with you against him - we'd have fought with rifles and frigates against destroyers, transports, machine guns and amphibious grenadiers. But let's say that we managed to use our size in numbers to turn the side. Had I gotten the upper hand to become the #1 civ - you're telling me that you wouldn't have been looking for the angle to cut a deal with Pindicator and sandwich me?

Now I understand that my decisions were not in YOUR best interests. And I actually agree with what you're saying about diplo games and commiserate with where you're coming from. I'm not sure that I'll play in a diplo Civ game any time soon either.

Like you mentioned in quoting my thread earlier, my goal going into this game was to play a faithful ally, and I think that it worked out just fine for me. Again, I do understand why you did not like it but I agree with what you're saying about this being the likely outcome of most Civ games with diplo on.