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[SPOILERS] - tales of Brennus, famous Chinese warlord

...other players are gently asked to leave for now (you can have fun after game's end wink )!



Take a little walk to the edge of town
Go across the tracks
Where the viaduct looms,
like a bird of doom
As it shifts and cracks
Where secrets lie in the border fires,
in the humming wires
Hey man, you know
you're never coming back
Past the square, past the bridge,
past the mills, past the stacks
On a gathering storm comes
a tall handsome man
In a dusty black coat with
a red right hand

He'll wrap you in his arms,
tell you that you've been a good boy
He'll rekindle all the dreams
it took you a lifetime to destroy
He'll reach deep into the hole,
heal your shrinking soul
But there won't be a single thing
That you can do.
He's a god, he's a man,
he's a ghost, he's a guru
They're whispering his name
through this disappearing land
But hidden in his coat
is a red right hand

You ain't got no money?
He'll get you some
You ain't got no car?
He'll get you one
You ain't have no self-respect,
you feel like an insect
Well don't you worry buddy,
cause here he comes
Through the ghettos and the barrio
and the bowery and the slum
A shadow is cast wherever he stands
Stacks of green paper in his
red right hand

You'll see him in your nightmares,
you'll see him in your dreams
He'll appear out of nowhere but
he ain't what he seems
You'll see him in your head,
on the TV screen
And hey buddy, I'm warning
you to turn it off
He's a ghost, he's a god,
he's a man, he's a guru
You're one microscopic cog
in his catastrophic plan
Designed and directed by
his red right hand

Red Right Hand by Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds
War doesn't determine who's right; war determines who's left.
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before history started - civilization/leader choices

Zero_1627
(initial thoughts - sadly not saved;
Leader: Saladin/Ramesses II/Brennus (initially in this order, then Brennus chosen as the favourite)
Civ: Mali (great early defense (Skirmishers) and nice building (Mint - Forge with +10%Gold); Babylon as preliminary secondary choice (Bowman)
)

yuris125
Have to be brief for now, have a short break from work. In general, my availability before 1800 GMT is limited

1. 2 CG3 Archers will be almost unbeatable until Cats are in play. So I do not expect extremely early aggression, and by that time it comes we should have good enough military to defend. I fully expect barbs to be more threatening than other players in the early game - fortunately they will be threatening for everyone, this is another reason other players won't go for an early attack
Therefore: do not take Protective, it's the weakest trait even in a war-oriented game

2. For the same reason, I do not think we want an Archer-based UU, and Mint is not an amazing UB either

3. I totally approve of Brennus

4. I think you never mentioned Philosophical trait, which I think will be very strong in this game (few cities -> low economy -> slow tech -> bulbs more efficient). So if we don't get Brennus, I will be happy with any combination of Cha/Spi/Phi

Sorry, have to go back to work. Will come back with thoughts on civ picks later. Hope this is somewhat helpful


Zero_1627
I've rethought trait relative priority. Charismatic gives serious military bonus (easier promotions) and economic bonus (+2 easily attainable Happy per city, which for a long time means +2 potential population and/or more whip tolerance). So now Brennus is my top choice, with Saladin or Ramesses as second.
Still, I'd like to get Mali in first pass - I think they're essential for my overall strategy to work, while there are a few good leaders.
(...)
After more thinking - first leader pick is still Brennus, second - either Lincoln (Cha/Phi) or Gandhi (Spi/Phi) (I still don't know which one I prefer... hopefully we'll be able to take Brennus).

Btw, I've noted that in veterans game both Gandhi and Brennus were taken early

yuris125
The point is, don't think everyone will come gunning for us in the early game Our opponents will be busy developing the first city and defending against barbs. Overbuilding military in the early game is a common mistake, and it's almost impossible to recover from it. As long as we keep track of opponents' military via demos and keep up with it, we will be fine without defensive UUs. 1 Archer in every city + a couple of Chariots for mobile barb defence is all we need

My picks for civ would be
First tier
* Egypt - great UU, good starting techs
* France - great UU, good starting techs
* China - good UU, great starting techs
Second tier
* Inca - great UB
* Mongolia - good UU and UB with good synergy


Zero_1627
Overall:
In general I like Your choices and am OK to abandon idea of Archer-based UU. Of civs proposed by You, I think Egypt, China and Mongolia are most interesting (and I'll add Persia to this list). France has late both UU and UB, and Incan UB will (I think) not be as important in city-limited game.
But as we don't envision very early player aggression, i don't think Chariot-based UU will be all that good - so scratch Persia and Egypt.
Of two remaining, I'd vote for Mongols - as fast units will be very important, giving them another level from the ground seems way to go. And early but not super-early fast UU sounds very nice.
If they're not available, China is OK.

So, do we agree for Brennus of Mongols? I'd pick civ first, as we have a few almost as good leaders but not civs.
Second pick: civ China, leader Lincoln or Gandhi.

Short thoughts about Your picks:
Egypt - indeed great UU (especially as without archers I envision a few early Chariots, for mobile defense if nothing else). Poor building.
France - again poor building, and I don't think Musketeer is such a gread unit. Nice, of course, but not something to pick for.
China - great unit, very good starting techs, poor UB (I don't think we'll need more culture in this game...)
Inca - nice UB (I'd say great for normal game ), I don't see usefulness of Quechua in this game
Mongolia - nice UU which synergizes very well with UB - with Ger, Barracks and Charismatic leader new horse units wil be just 1 XP short of 4th level...


yuris125
Brennus of Mongolia sounds good. I would prefer picking leader first though. We will be fine with Mongolia, China, or Egypt. But if we take Mongolia, and then both Brennus and Lincoln are taken, we will be stuck with Gandhi of Mongolia, a combo with no synergy whatsoever

I admit I have a soft spot for Musketeers after they won a game for me on their own (http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5467) - maybe I overvalue them quite a bit. Also agree Inca is not very good in this game, which is why I placed them in the second tier


Zero_1627
I know Your choice would be China over Mongolia, but mobile UU with extra XP is very tempting. That's why I prefer Mongolia (once my original battle plan went down in flames ).
And Hunting may be not so bad - it's poor starting tech, but whatever huts there are will need to be taken quickly, and Scout at start will help. And we won't be forced to quickly build defensive warrior, either .

Btw, I've noticed that one of the vets chose Brennus of Mali (my original pick), so it can't be that bad


yuris125
I actually prefer Mongolia with a Cha leader, and China with Gandhi, with Egypt as a backup plan

Mali is not a bad choice when there is Aggressive Rome in play. Another reason why we should pick leader first by the way this is more flexible and allows to react to opponents' picks


Zero_1627
Of the two of us, You seem to be more experienced player!


yuris125
More experienced maybe, I lost in 4 PBEMs already But in only one of them I had a shot at victory, and that's because the runaway leader was attacked by his neghibour for half of the game

Meanwhile Scooter picked Native America in the vets game, I have to admit my first reaction is omgwtf
War doesn't determine who's right; war determines who's left.
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So, choices are in.

Our opponents took:
AutomatedTeller: Elizabeth (Phi/Fin) of Native America - I don't think Fin will be here as strong as usual (cottages are easily pillageable), but still nice choice. But I totally fail to see the point of Native America. Better archery units (Totem XP)?...

Twinkletoes89: Washington (Exp/Cha) of Maya (Holkan/Ball Court) - again I don't think Exp is as strong as usual, but still good leader. Holkan is basically resourceless Spearman, so I see no threat here (but good against early mobile pillagers!), while ball court gives a lot of happy (with Charismatic leader!). I expect him to have big cities, which will be a long-term threat.

Serdoa - Lincoln of Mongolia - he took what we would take in his place wink. Also, I think he is the most experienced player here, so with extra mobile highly trained Keshiks he seems to be direct military threat. And a strong one. I'm thinking - had we taken Mongolia, would he go for Brennus of something?
War doesn't determine who's right; war determines who's left.
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initial plans:

obviously I haven't seen starting location yet, but general plan for now is:
- worker first
- what second? I don't want to build warriors when we have 2 extra strong Archers... but we don't have many options in city. Another worker? early settler (not necessarily immediately completed)? barracks(!)?

Techwise: we start with Agriculture and Mining, so our workers can do a lot from get go. If I see animals and/or somethink to camp, I'm tempted to go Hunting/Animal Husbandry (or even straight AH if I see no Hunting resources) - that way we will see where are the Horses!
Otherwise, I see two options:
- Mysticism (Charismatic Obelisks to build in cities), and maybe some religion (Meditation preferably)? Mayans start with Mysticism and worker tech, though, so they may get religion just after we start development frown . OTOH, they're not Spiritual, so it may be not so tempting for them smile
- Bronze Working: Copper knowledge (important!), cutting down forests and slavery - also very good, especially as I assume at least one strong food resource nearby... Costly tech, though.

I'd avoid Pottery until after we have Slavery - economy will not be as important as we won't try to grow beyond 3 cities. The Wheel - should be put there somewhere before we need some connected resource wink

My current choice would be BW->Meditation and then stop to think, but as I said - resources available may tempt me to start with Hunting->AH.

Your thoughts?
War doesn't determine who's right; war determines who's left.
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Also: our choice:
Charismatic - extra happy (in the beginning for whip, then for extra city size) - Obelisks are more usefula than usual. Also, lower XP thresholds.
Spiritual: cheap temples (nice) and no anarchy smile)) - when we get something we may revolt immediately at no cost, and in game we may switch civics often if need be.

Pavilion: Theatre with extra culture? I don't think it'll be useful in this game
Cho-Ko-Nu: X-bow with extra first strike and collateral? yes, please! still slow unit, though.


Also, from now on I'll write as 'me' rather than 'us' wink
War doesn't determine who's right; war determines who's left.
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I would prefer not to plan too much until we see the map smile the start can drastically change any plans. Initially I think Worker first - probably another Worker; research BW first, unless there are no forests and many AH resources nearby. Mysticism is a nice to have tech, not the highest priority; we definitely need to see the map before deciding. Will Hunting be important? Will Pottery be strong? Either of these techs (or both) can be more important than Mysticism
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It seems game concept may change a bit... for much tighter map, where barbarians will not be an issue (close spaces!) and other players will be VERY much of an issue (close spaces!!). We'll see!
War doesn't determine who's right; war determines who's left.
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With BW first and assuming copper nearby, we'll be perfectly fine as long as we follow opponents' power
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Erm.... why do you want to repick?? I don't think there's anything better available
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yuris125 Wrote:With BW first and assuming copper nearby, we'll be perfectly fine as long as we follow opponents' power

Indeed we should be smile . I'd still pick Mali for smaller map if allowed (non-issue already).
War doesn't determine who's right; war determines who's left.
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