New MoO announced

[Ray F]

Guys from mmorpg.su think (in Russian) that this is casual, online/multilayer oriented, or both. They mention a total luck of "intelligence" in AI - this is hard to justify by the "early access", AI isn't something you "add later" (usually). A "dumb Civilization" is a quite good definition, which is actually in line with all people are saying here.

Ya, I'm seeing a lot of early comments about the ineffectiveness of the AI. I think that's something that's bolstered after the game is feature-complete, so I expect there will be a lot of improvements in it.

[Sullla]

Oh, the AI is very bad right now, don't kid yourself! I had no trouble easily out-expanding and out-growing the AI in my first game for a dominating win after 150 turns. I don't expect the AI to be smart at this current point of development, and difficulty level is always easy to crank up. I would like to see the ability to change the difficulty soonish though; it's a bit annoying that only "Average" can be chosen right now in the current build.

I'll have to write up an article on this game at some point. Hopefully I can find the time.

[Hail]

Guys from mmorpg.su think (in Russian) that this is casual, online/multilayer oriented, or both. They mention a total luck of "intelligence" in AI - this is hard to justify by the "early access", AI isn't something you "add later" (usually). A "dumb Civilization" is a quite good definition, which is actually in line with all people are saying here.

the guys from mmorpg.su, after noticing that AI is terrible, draw the conclusion that the MoO remake will be multiplayer-oriented.
their final verdict is that, of now, the remake is a shallow civ5 in space. wait and see is their recommendation.

actually civ5 and the MoO remake have alot in common: excellent visuals & audio, outstanding presentation, abysmal AI, casual (on rails) gameplay. perhaps, the only aspect they truly differ is the number of gameplay systems. civ5 has many, and numerous players enjoy managing them ("when it all comes together"). almost forgot! MoO remake needs more freebies!

personally, I detest Early Access. the only games I bought in EA are Black Mesa and Descent: Underground.

for the lulz I shall compare Ascendancy (1995) with MoO remake (2016):

galaxy attributes - yes | yes
excellent visuals - yes | yes
excellent audio (soundtrack, etc.) - yes | yes
voiceovers - no | yes
unique races - yes | yes
planet attributes - yes | yes
planet & race interaction (favorite biomes, gravity, etc.) - no | yes
can build stuff on planets - yes | yes
can build multiple instances of a building on a planet - yes | no
wonders - no | no
planetary projects - yes | no (?)
terraforming - yes | no
ship customization - yes!! | sort of
MM intensive - yes | yes
starlines (colored red & blue) - yes | yes
terrible AI - yes | yes

Ascendancy wins!

[RefSteel]

Ya, I'm seeing a lot of early comments about the ineffectiveness of the AI. I think that's something that's bolstered after the game is feature-complete, so I expect there will be a lot of improvements in it.

Sure; I noticed Sirian specifically mentioned one of the ways the AI is being improved (in ship design) and as long as all the interacting game subsystems aren't in place, it's hard to judge how the AI will handle the whole (or to design one to handle the final product well in the first place). We'll have to see how well it does on higher difficulty levels too. I'm intrigued, and glad to hear some folks are enjoying even the early-access work-in-progress version for what it is!

(Thread stickied.)

[Tyrmith]

Probably a bit unfair to compare a very early access game to one that's all finished and polished. Not to mention that just because a game doesn't have a feature doesn't mean it's a bad thing...

In anycase, if it's multiplayer done right, Civ4 definitely showed us how worthwhile that is.

Guys from mmorpg.su think (in Russian) that this is casual, online/multilayer oriented, or both. They mention a total luck of "intelligence" in AI - this is hard to justify by the "early access", AI isn't something you "add later" (usually). A "dumb Civilization" is a quite good definition, which is actually in line with all people are saying here.

the guys from mmorpg.su, after noticing that AI is terrible, draw the conclusion that the MoO remake will be multiplayer-oriented.
their final verdict is that, of now, the remake is a shallow civ5 in space. wait and see is their recommendation.

actually civ5 and the MoO remake have alot in common: excellent visuals & audio, outstanding presentation, abysmal AI, casual (on rails) gameplay. perhaps, the only aspect they truly differ is the number of gameplay systems. civ5 has many, and numerous players enjoy managing them ("when it all comes together"). almost forgot! MoO remake needs more freebies!

personally, I detest Early Access. the only games I bought in EA are Black Mesa and Descent: Underground.

for the lulz I shall compare Ascendancy (1995) with MoO remake (2016):

galaxy attributes - yes | yes
excellent visuals - yes | yes
excellent audio (soundtrack, etc.) - yes | yes
voiceovers - no | yes
unique races - yes | yes
planet attributes - yes | yes
planet & race interaction (favorite biomes, gravity, etc.) - no | yes
can build stuff on planets - yes | yes
can build multiple instances of a building on a planet - yes | no
wonders - no | no
planetary projects - yes | no (?)
terraforming - yes | no
ship customization - yes!! | sort of
MM intensive - yes | yes
starlines (colored red & blue) - yes | yes

Ascendancy wins!

[Gustaran]

Probably a bit unfair to compare a very early access game to one that's all finished and polished.

I don't know if it is set in stone, but a German magazine preview I read mentioned that the early access phase is supposed to last only three months.
It seems to me that three months is not a lot of time to finish a game.
Obviously I have no insight at all and maybe it can be done, but the game would probably be judged differently if the release was planned for Q1 2017.

[Mardoc]

Sullla, I'm glad you're streaming this. Watched about half an hour of your stream so far. You'll make it easy for me to decide whether to hop in once the game is released. I admit, knowing that Sirian and Soren are involved is one for the "Pro" column .

the marketing folks have been emphasizing that this game is more in the vein of Orion 2 than Orion 1

Oh, boy is it ever! I played Moo2 for years, and there were moments during Sullla's stream where I had to remind myself this is a new game. It looks like many of the core mechanics have been updated, though, like the decreasing returns to population in each category of production. I hope my pet peeves with 2 have been removed...primarily the micromanagement of new colonies and spies. If so, this may be like the Civ3 -> Civ4 jump.

Now if you can condense this explanation on to a tooltip, I'm all ears.

Heh, I've tried a couple times now and keep leaving out an important detail somewhere. It may be a mechanic that has to just go in the Moo-pedia somewhere.

Maybe something like this could work, if Morale is explained somewhere separate:

Number of striking citizens = (100%-Morale) * Current pop, rounded down

And show the numbers for the current planet, of course.

Edit: Maybe Morale's explained on its own display, while the striking citizens tooltip is explained on hovering a striking citizen?

I like the morale design. Unlike Civ4 happiness, it has an effect for both big and small planets, but you still have a grace period at new planets.

Does morale above 100% have any effect? If I first control morale with buildings, and later decide to turn down my tax rate, does that make my building investment completely worthless?

[Sirian]

I like the morale design. Unlike Civ4 happiness, it has an effect for both big and small planets, but you still have a grace period at new planets.

I like the morale design, too. It's a little gamey with its jumps and integer-only math, but that's actually what makes it work smoothly. The big jump of losing a whole pop point to strike makes the penalty worth managing, as well as letting you track exactly when the next striker is coming. Mesh this with the different food and production numbers of different biomes and mineral richness, different planetary population caps, and the diminishing returns mechanic, and there's enough variety of situations to create that "one more turn" feeling in the planetary management. Letting players off the hook for this system in the middle game feels right to me, as well. One of the best traits of MOO1 is how well the design scales as the turns pass, avoiding the oft-suffered pitfall of the game bogging down hopelessly as the end game nears. MOO2 was *not* as good at the scaling aspect.

Of course, as Sulla and others have observed, the AI needs more work to improve the big picture. There might be enough pushback as is for low difficulty level players and newbies to have fun now, but veterans will need more resistance to put meaning to all the planetary management bits.

Over 100% morale has no benefit that I know -- except the ability to turn the taxes up more, bringing the morale back to around 100% but now with more income.


Very good try with the tooltip. You got it short enough, and that's something. I think asking players to do a bit of algebra in their heads is probably a non-starter, but if not for that it could have worked.


- Sirian

[Mardoc]

MOO2 was *not* as good at the scaling aspect.

That's one of the pieces I'm watching for.

Over 100% morale has no benefit that I know -- except the ability to turn the taxes up more, bringing the morale back to around 100% but now with more income.

Ah well. Was hoping there would be a reason to make my people extra-happy, even if it failed on opportunity cost. Or else a silver lining to the cloud of having to lower taxes to make new acquisitions productive. I need to be careful not to judge the mechanic in isolation, though!

Very good try with the tooltip. You got it short enough, and that's something. I think asking players to do a bit of algebra in their heads is probably a non-starter, but if not for that it could have worked.

- Sirian

Huh, really? I thought I was already underestimating the audience with that

[antisocialmunky]

I love MoO2 but the

Build Automated Factory -> Hydroponics -> Cloning Center -> Scilab -> ... -> Trade Goods

Ad Nauseum for every planet just had me exploding every planet I came of across eventually. I guess if you there is an attack Antares option, it would make the 'micromanaging' game bearable.