RB Pitboss #3 [SPOILERS]- Suryavarman II of England

[haphazard1]

Of your three, I like Option 1 the best. I assume you work a forested tile of some sort (or the sheep) while the rice is being improved, and then grow to size 2 just in time to finish the warrior?
I don't like option 3, that many improved tiles is a waste this early. Unless a city shares tiles with the capital, they're not going to be used, and farming resourceless tile is doubly a waste, since we're going to want cottages instead.

Option 1 is working the rice while the rice is being improved -- max growth is important so we can work more tiles. Option 1 also has the city at size 3, not 2, so there is no missing population. The second warrior (first built warrior) finishes just as the city grows to size 3, then start the settler while working farmed rice, mined grass river hill, and sheep (unpastured at first, but done before the settler finishes). Sheep is +1 F/H +1C for the settler compared to the mine, once it is done, and sets up faster growth after the settler.

The extra improved tiles with option 3 is simply due to having 2 workers and no BW to chop until later. They have to do something, so the plains farm and extra mine on the non-river hill looked like the best options. One of your scenarios had a farmed grassland, probably for the same reason.

Option 2 looks like my AH-first plan, only slightly less optimized (Under my plan, I work the rice for 2t while building the first worker, then warrior + working rice + sheep (once size 2), switching on the last turn to the just-finished grassland hill mine to hit size 3 exactly and maximize overflow, where the worker then gets 4 food and 8*1.25 hammers on the first turn thanks to overflow). Compared to my 2-mine BW-first plan, though, I don't think that it's better.

Option 2 is my least favored of the AH-first scenarios. It does not get the early settler (option 1) or the bigger capital (option 3). It does a bit of both poorly, which is not what we want to start. This is actually identical to your AH start, except I farmed the plains rather than the grassland. The two workers with 1 turn into chops is the same as well.

Compared to BW + 2 mines:
Option 1 has a size 2 London, so we're short 1 worker and 1 pop, with 2 more forests, and get the settler 1t sooner, with slightly more development. However, the BW first plan also gets us a far more efficient anarchy (we can revolt while the settler's moving), making up that saved settler turn later. I didn't try to see how quickly I could get a second settler out (and we'd need some military, as well), but with 2 workers, I could get at least 2 chops in (40h + 10hpt at size 3), knocking out a second settler on T40, and the sheep would be pastured on T41 or 42. Or a 3rd worker (sending one of the workers off to city #2).

My option 1 is size 3 London, so the pop is equal. There is only 1 worker, but you have pastured sheep (worth 4 worker turns, plus the improved tile yield) and 2 additional forests. The extra food from the sheep helps to rapidly grow to size 4 (probably while building warriors) and work the extra tile. We want our capital to grow rapidly so we can slave periodically -- 2 pop worker whips give good overflow with EXP. Or if we can get some copper hooked up, axes and spears. Maybe a settler occasionally.

The anarchy is a very good point -- the new city will save 1 turn of anarchy. The capital loses 1 turn either way.

Note: We'll want a worker at every new city to chop a granary once we get Pottery in. Every new city should have their granary complete before they have 11 food in the box.

With EXP workers we should have little trouble building (slaving, chopping) a worker for each new city. We may or may not want to chop the granary -- if a new city has decent food then slaving it as soon as we reach size 2 may be better. Use the worker to improve the food, then chop for whatever we need (units, library, etc.). Getting an improved tile immediately is often better than spending those first worker turns chopping, although we should consider each case.

[antisocialmunky]

How about EOT32 Settler with EOT35 Worker?

We delay AH 1 turn later though So yeah, I suck at counting on GChat.

-Tile improvements are 2 Mines(1 is not on river), 1 Farm.
-Units are 2 Worker, 1 Settler, 2 Warriors.
-2 Trees chopped

Instructions:
Agriculture -> Bronze Working
London goes Warrior after Worker to grow to 3.
Work Sheep, River Mine, and Sheep in that order.
Worker mines the 2W hill after Rice Farm
Worker mines the 2N hill next
Warrior finishes 1 turn before size 3, use hammers into Rax or another Warrior, before the Settler
Mine -> Chop
Settler @ EOT32 -> Escort to City 2
Start Worker #2,
Chop -> Chop
Worker @ EOT35







*EDIT, we should sue the hill by the capitol so we don't lose commerce but we delay worker by 1 turn.

[haphazard1]

ASM,

Very interesting. I am not sure the 2 turns saved on the settler are worth the delayed development. Maybe?

Pros:

- Settler done 2 turns earlier, city #2 settled 2 turns earlier, worth about 8F 4H 2C (assuming city works a grass forest at first, could be different). Also get 4 culture, border pops 2 turns earlier, etc. If city #2 is on same river as capital we also get +4C from trade routes. This is just the immediate effect, of course; the city will grow to size 2 sooner, etc., bringing more benefits. Future benefits have to be discounted to present value, and exact values are tough to judge.

Cons:

- AH will not finish until T40 or so, sheep pastured about T43. Compared to my option 1, sheep were pastured on T28. That is 15 turns losing 2F, 1C each turn, or 30F, 15C before we get the capital's second-best tile improved.
- Second mine on non-river hill, more lost commerce. Compare to my option 1 or Cyneheard's option 2, where both AH and BW were done by T38. Instead we see BW done but AH lagging until T40. That is two turns of research delayed, meaning Wheel is delayed, Pottery is delayed, etc.
- Worker turns. After the settler is done the first worker needs to spend turns chopping the second worker ==> still more turns before our capital gets more improved tiles, mines on the river, etc.

Is the difference worth it? Maybe. I really dislike the delay in AH, not just from BW first but from lower commerce. That sheep tile is powerful once improved, and delaying the pasture really hurts.

We should consider the possible river trade routes for our second city -- planting on the same river as London will earn us some very useful extra commerce. May not be possible, of course, depending on resources. But we should keep it in mind. Along with river sites for future levees.

[Cyneheard]

One thing: It's not sheep improved vs. sheep unimproved, it's sheep improved vs. Grass Hill Mine. While building workers/settlers, which is what we're doing for most, if not all of this time, we lose:
0-1 hammer + 1 commerce for 15 turns, probably about 12 hammers. Compared to the value of chopping in 2 or 3 forests that much sooner, I think BW comes out ahead. By the time you pasture the sheep under your plan, ours would have improved another GHM.

[antisocialmunky]

Cyneheard's idea was that we waste a worker turn and get to the hill. This delays worker 2 until T36(1 turn of anarchy or not) but we get our tech sooner.

We can get the next worker in 4 turns and we can chop 2 trees into it to get some other stuff. AH finishes at 40 this way and sheeps at 42. Krill also pointed out that we need a contingency incase we are next to Krill which is spearmen. We can get hunting by the mid 30s and pretty much be safe if we can find copper.

Our border pop should grab the 2 peaks and give us a nice scout so HOPEFULLY THERE IS COPPERS.

[haphazard1]

I have no problem with teching BW first. The various plans and comparisons show that we can get the settler out around the same time, and knowing the location of copper is more important than knowing about horses. (Assuming we have some copper nearby, of course, and that is just a gamble we have to take unless we want to really try to meta-game the mapmakers.) Saving a turn of anarchy in the new city is also useful.

But we need to get that sheep tile pastured as quickly as we can after BW. Grass hill mines are not as strong, give up commerce (especially if not on a river), and most critically they do not boost growth. London working the rice and 2 GHM does not grow very fast at all, only +3 fpt. That is 9 turns to grow from size 3 to 4. With rice, sheep, and 1 GHM we get +6 fpt and grow in 5 turns.

[antisocialmunky]

In our spear contingency, we'd try and grow to 4 using sheeps and work 3 GHMs and then swap to the sheep after worker 3.

[haphazard1]

Cyneheard's idea was that we waste a worker turn and get to the hill. This delays worker 2 until T36(1 turn of anarchy or not) but we get our tech sooner.

Worker turns are valuable, but getting a tech 2 turns sooner is worth a turn moving, IMHO.

We can get the next worker in 4 turns and we can chop 2 trees into it to get some other stuff. AH finishes at 40 this way and sheeps at 42.

Or those trees could go into things other than workers; also, workers chopping are not mining river-side hills or pasturing sheep.

Krill also pointed out that we need a contingency incase we are next to Krill which is hunting. We can get hunting by the mid 30s and pretty much be safe if we can find copper.

Don't know where this was said -- what was the context? Anyway, if anyone shows up with chariots (war or normal) while we have only warriors, of course we have problems. But unless they have horses at their capital they need a second city to claim them, hook them, etc., just as we do with copper or horses of our own. Resource-less units such as dog soldiers and skirms are a bigger threat for a fast rush.

No way do we want to delay AH even longer for Hunting, delaying our sheep tile even further. The extra prereq bonus does not really make up for the delay.

[Cyneheard]

ASM was quoting me, and just used "krill" twice. We were gchating, and I said we needed a contingency if we find someone who's likely to chariot rush (i.e., Krill).

[haphazard1]

OK, thanks for clarifying -- that was confusing. Read like Krill was issuing threats or something.

If we meet an Egypt or a Rome, we will have to adjust our plans. But I do not think we should delay improving our second-best tile on just a possibility. We want AH for our sheep and to reveal horses. Maybe we will be the ones with chariots early? Early horses and exploring the world with chariots would be cool.